Was the Langley Jets' Emergency Response Sabotaged?

From an excellent 9/11 reseacher, Shoestring, posted this informative article about why our fighter jets failed to protect Washington, D.C. on 9/11:

Langley Air Force Base was the second military base that launched fighter jets to defend America in response to the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. Three of its F-16s were ordered to take off toward Washington at 9:24 a.m. that morning, but by the time they were airborne, more than 40 minutes had passed since the first attack on the World Trade Center, and almost half an hour since the second.

Furthermore, the pilots were hindered by an extraordinary combination of confusion, communications problems, conflicting orders, breaches of protocol, and other difficulties. Consequently, when the Pentagon was hit at 9:37 a.m., the jets were further away from it than they'd been when they took off. According to witnesses on the ground, fighters did not arrive over the Pentagon until around 10:40 a.m.--more than an hour too late to protect it from the attack.

A close examination of publicly available accounts raises the possibility that deliberate attempts were made to sabotage the ability of the Langley jets to respond to the 9/11 attacks, thereby paralyzing normal, well-practiced procedures. In this article, I focus on three particular aspects of the jets' response.

Firstly, I examine the initial order to launch F-16s from Langley AFB. Notably, instead of the usual two jets taking off, a third pilot took off in a spare jet. This left the unit with no supervisor of flying (SOF) to communicate with other agencies and pass on vital information to the pilots. Secondly, I question why, instead of heading toward Washington as instructed, the jets initially flew out over the ocean, where they were of no use in defending against further attacks. I look at the mysterious role played by the Fleet Area Control and Surveillance Facility in Virginia Beach, which was handling the jets while they were over the ocean. Could this facility have been misdirecting them? Thirdly, I look at the breakdown of communications between the military and the Langley jets, and the confusion experienced by the pilots that this contributed to.

Taken together, the sheer number of things that went wrong appears highly suspicious, and makes clear the urgent need for a new and unrestrained investigation of 9/11, to find out what was really going on that day and who was behind the attacks.

Continued at this link.

It's a long article, but there's alot of information there with sources. Please take the time to read the entire article before commenting, thanks.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by _BoneZ_]

Oh wow, yet another thing that Bin laden was busy doing that day. Ruining the interceptors day so that they couldn't thwart his ultimate master plan.

God he's an amazingly talented fellow.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by king9072]

As is usual for a "truther" written article this is full of some truths, some half truths, and some falsehoods to present the authors biased intent.

NEADS was desperately looking for more aircraft than was available on alert. The SOF at Langley indicated they had a spare ready to go with guns only. This is a case of "damned if you do and damned if you don't".

The author of the article doesn't have a clue regarding the SOF duties. He is not indispensable as is implied. This is completely blown out of proportion.

They launched 6 minutes after the Scramble. That's pretty darn good considering they have 15 minutes to get airborne from the Scramble.

Langley Tower issued the fighters 090 for 60, which is the standard departure instructions for a Scramble out of Langley. The fighters can not just take off and turn immediately to the scramble heading. They have to allow ATC time to clear the airspace and ranges in the area. They only went about 30 miles East and it was a joint responsibility between the Quit Lead (Quit 25) and Norfolk Departure to turn to the Scramble instructed heading and altitude sooner, if possible. Both of them appear to have dropped the ball in turning North sooner. Giant Killer was a minor player in all of this as the fighter were only with them for a very short period. The author of the article exaggerates Giant Killer's role for enhanced DRAMA and MYSTERY.

Their arrival time over DC as stated in the article is WRONG. Quit 25 is on tape with Washington Center and Washington RAPCON refueling over DC at about 10:00, while the two wingmen are established in a CAP over DC. They each then refueled in order. This is all on tape and radar.

ALL OF THIS is documented on ATC tapes, transcripts and radar, but I'm not willing to find all of the links and post it for the deluded here who will continue to argue anyway. Perhaps Boone 870 will do so, as I believe he has then all on his HD.

The BOTTOM LINE is that the 9:24 Scramble was TOO LATE to have prevented the attack on the Pentagon anyway. NEADS did not know about AA 77, but had launched the fighters toward Baltimore to intercept a phantom AA 11. The fighters can not just launch, turn toward DC, and go full blower without some preliminary preparations. They were speed limited due to external fuel tanks and missiles. Even had they "punched off" the external tanks that would have taken time and they would have exhausted their fuel prior to arriving over DC in an attempt to intercept AA 77. So, the short diversion in an Easterly direction didn't make any difference in the outcome. It has only provided a continued basis for Conspiracy Theorists to perpetuate their delusions, simply because they have NO CLUE.

reply to post by Reheat

Theorists to perpetuate their delusions, simply because they have NO CLUE.

Bottom line is, the jets were scrambled and sent 150 miles in the wrong directions it is obvious that you are spinning the OS with more lies to deceive everyone, and I find that very disingenuous. How about posting some sources or proof to back up your conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by impressme
Bottom line is, the jets were scrambled and sent 150 miles in the wrong directions it is obvious that you are spinning the OS with more lies to deceive everyone, and I find that very disingenuous. How about posting some sources or proof to back up your conspiracy theories.

Now that's very funny! Muhahaha..... You do realize that the distances you are confused about illustrates my point perfectly about a clue or two?

Langley is about 120 miles from DC. An additional approximately 30 miles East would be a total of about 150 miles from DC.

I seriously doubt sources would help much to resolve this kind of confusion.

reply to post by Reheat

The United States will spend more on the military in fiscal year 2003 (at least 396 billion) than the next 25 biggest countries combined. Also, the United States Air Force is by far and away the most technologically advanced and dominate military force ever known to man. So knowing all of these facts, what type of a preposterous wag the NORAD Reponse Times tale is this?

9:02:54: UA175 impacts the South Tower of the WTC between the 78th and 84th floors. NORAD says the F-15's from Otis are still 71 miles away. This means their average flight speed was only 23.9% of their top speed in trying to intercept UA 175. Otis is 153 miles from WTC - F-15's have a top speed of 1875 MPH. Minus 71 miles from 153 miles = 82 miles covered in 11 minutes from 8:52 to 9:03 -
60 minutes divided by 11 minutes = 5.45 x 82 miles = 447.3 MPH divided by 1875 MPH = 23.9%.
9:30: Three F-16's from Langley are airborne.
9:37: American Airlines Flight 77 hits the Pentagon. NORAD says the F-16's from Langley were still 105 miles and 12 minutes away.
9:49: It takes the F-16's from Langley 19 minutes to reach Washington. This means their average flight speed was only 27.4% of their top speed in trying to protect our nations capital. Langley is 130 miles from the Pentagon - F-16's have a top speed of 1500 MPH - 60 minutes divided by 19 minutes = 3.16 x 130 miles = 410.5 MPH divided by 1500 MPH = 27.4%.
Andrews Air Force Base has two fighter wings that are 10 miles from the Pentagon, yet they inconceivably waited till after all of the attacks were over to finally get airborne.

www.mycountryrightorwrong.net...

NORAD’s Response Times

American Airlines Flight 11 – Boston enroute to Los Angeles
FAA Notification to NEADS 0840*
Fighter Scramble Order (Otis Air National Guard Base, Falmouth, Mass. Two F-15s) 0846**
Fighters Airborne 0852
Airline Impact Time (World Trade Center 1) 0846 (estimated)***
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location Aircraft not airborne/153 miles

United Airlines Flight 175 – Boston enroute to Los Angeles
FAA Notification to NEADS 0843
Fighter Scramble Order (Otis ANGB, Falmouth, Mass. Same 2 F-15s as Flight 11) 0846
Fighters Airborne 0852
Airline Impact Time (World Trade Center 2) 0902 (estimated)
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 8 min****/71 miles

American Flight 77 –Dulles enroute to Los Angeles
FAA Notification to NEADS 0924
Fighter Scramble Order (Langley AFB, Hampton, Va. 2 F-16s) 0924
Fighters Airborne 0930
Airline Impact Time (Pentagon) 0937(estimated)
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 12 min/105 miles

United Flight 93 – Newark to San Francisco
FAA Notification to NEADS N/A *****
Fighter Scramble Order (Langley F-16s already airborne for AA Flt 77)
Fighters Airborne (Langley F-16 CAP remains in place to protect DC)
Airline Impact Time (Pennsylvania) 1003 (estimated)
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 11 min/100 miles
(from DC F-16 CAP)

standdown.net...

The problem you have reheat, is your math is all wrong, however, I would expect that if you got it from one of those disinformation sites.

Now that I have prove even if the fighters jet were 150 nm away, or 130 nm away the F16 and F18 top speeds of 1,500 MPH, at that speed their arrival time would have been only 8 to 12 minutes away.

Langley is about 120 miles from DC. An additional approximately 30 miles East would be a total of about 150 miles from DC.

As I had said in my above statement with proof, and I have showing you my sources that the distant of 150 or 120 mile makes no different the military could have intercepted all four the planes on 911, and that is a FACT.

I seriously doubt sources would help much to resolve this kind of confusion.

Wrong again! Look at the links I just provide you.

Originally posted by impressme

No, my math is not wrong....

Here's the quote to which I replied....

Originally posted by impressmeBottom line is, the jets were scrambled and sent 150 miles in the wrong directions it is obvious that you are spinning the OS with more lies to deceive everyone, and I find that very disingenuous.

The 3 Langley F-16's went about 30 miles East of Langley, not 150 miles in the wrong direction. The total would have been about 150 miles from DC. If there is a few miles difference I am using nautical miles, which is standard aviation measurement for distances. First FAIL.

Oh, I know what the conspiracy sites publish. They are WRONG! While it is true that a brand new F-16 will in fact, go approximately 1500 MPH in a CLEAN CONFIGURATION it CAN NOT do that with external fuel tanks and missiles. The source is ME as I have flown the freakin' aircraft.

F-15's can not go 1800 MPH with external fuel tanks and missiles either. The source is ME as I have flown in formation with them, been chased by them and have chased them.

Second and Third FAIL.

The times you have posted are irrelevant. The key is WHEN NEADS knew of the hijacked aircraft and when the scramble was initiated. The most amount of time they had was 10 minutes notification for AA 11. They learned about UA 175 AFTER it has crashed into the WTC. They learned about AA 77 about 3 minutes prior to it's crash. They did not know about UA 93 until after it had already crashed. Fourth FAIL.

I think it's time to stop now before you get to a dozen. Keep posting and we might get there before the evening is over.

reply to post by Reheat


Where are your sources to this information’s or are you just giving your opinions as you always do?

Originally posted by impressme
reply to post by Reheat

 

Where are your sources to this information’s or are you just giving your opinions as you always do?

To lend you a helping hand here is the NORAD time line based on the NEADS tapes.

forums.randi.org...

The aircraft speed issue IS NOT an opinion, it is based on my personal experience and knowledge.

The distance issues are based upon listening to the ATC tapes and measuring the distances in Google Earth, plus the radar track the F-16's flew enroute to DC. All of that is available on AAL77.com

reply to post by Reheat

The 3 Langley F-16's went about 30 miles East of Langley, not 150 miles in the wrong direction. The total would have been about 150 miles from DC. If there is a few miles difference I am using nautical miles, which is standard aviation measurement for distances. First FAIL.

Source please?

Oh, I know what the conspiracy sites publish.

I am sure you do, I and I know what disinformation sites publish as well, I have a tendency to stay clear from that rubbish don’t you?

They are WRONG! While it is true that a brand new F-16 will in fact, go approximately 1500 MPH in a CLEAN CONFIGURATION it CAN NOT do that with external fuel tanks and missiles. The source is ME as I have flown the freakin' aircraft.

Source please? I could lie and tell you that I have flown the (freakin' aircraft) as you may have. Your give away to your lie is you lack the military flight language in your argument, furthermore, if you had some basic understanding of military aviation and military combat procedures I would have back down. Sorry your whole argument doesn’t fly you are making a ….. out of your self.

F-15's can not go 1800 MPH with external fuel tanks and missiles either. The source is ME as I have flown in formation with them, been chased by them and have chased them.

Really, prove it! Were are your sources? In addition, we do not know if these military jets had their external fuel tanks “full” or were loaded with missiles. You were not there, when these jets where being prepared.

The times you have posted are irrelevant.

No one in the world will agree with you on this comment, “time is very important”. Yet you brush it off meaningless, wow!

The key is WHEN NEADS knew of the hijacked aircraft and when the scramble was initiated. The most amount of time they had was 10 minutes notification for AA 11. They learned about UA 175 AFTER it has crashed into the WTC. They learned about AA 77 about 3 minutes prior to it's crash. They did not know about UA 93 until after it had already crashed. Fourth FAIL .

Beside your ramblings and opinions, where are your sources? If you cannot provide some verifiable sources and links to creditable site, this discussion will be terminated between you and I.

Originally posted by impressme
Beside your ramblings and opinions, where are your sources? If you cannot provide some verifiable sources and links to creditable site, this discussion will be terminated between you and I.

There is no other valid time line except the NORAD/NEADS time line, period.

I posted sources, but apparently they aren't good enough for you. Too bad. Yes, I can guess at your definition of "verifiable" and "credible sites". I've seen some of them already and that's half of your problem.

Do you really believe that I give a hoot whether or not you discuss anything with me? You have stepped over the line already with your accusations of lying. Just run along now with your bad case of "irreducible delusions", you have shown through words that it never has been about the truth, only the "twoof".

[edit on 26-5-2009 by Reheat]

reply to post by Reheat


Save you “insults”! You have not posted any creditable sources on this subject.
Furthermore, you are off topic, I am not the subject that we are debating about, however, I refuse to get in an emotional debate with you and this topic is closed between you and I and consider your self put on ignore. This has nothing to do with your beliefs, or your opinions, it is your attitude that is in question here, towards me. Have a nice day.

On the F-16.....(Block 30)

Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.02 (1333 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel.


www.F-16.net

NOW, if you would like, I will try to remember to look up the numbers listed in the TO's tomorrow when I get to work.....


As to the "why did they fly out over the ocean..." Normal air defense protocol....absent a direct vector to an aircraft, they proceed to their ADIZ orbit zones to await their intercept vector.

reply to post by Reheat


Reheat, I'll throw some links up in hopes that someone will actually look through them, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

RADES/NEADS combined video and audio of the Langley fighters approaching Washington DC:
www.aal77.com...

Norfolk/Langley audio recordings:
www.aal77.com...

9/11 Commission Staff notes from the Norfolk visit:
media.nara.gov...

I would also recommend going to History Commons' Scribd page and entering "Filson" and "Langley" into the search box and reading the interviews with pilots.
www.scribd.com...

‘Touching History‘ by Lynn Spencer also covers the subject nicely. The sad part about this whole ordeal is this isn't Shoestring's first rodeo and he makes his first error in the second paragraph of his article.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
On the F-16.....(Block 30)

Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.02 (1333 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel.

It needs to be specified that the speeds are for a clean configuration, no external fuel tanks, no ordnance. The Hooligan's were flying A model F-16's. Their speed most of the way was around .95 Mach or above, verified by radar. The leader was supersonic for a short period until they learned that the Pentagon had already been struck.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
As to the "why did they fly out over the ocean..." Normal air defense protocol....absent a direct vector to an aircraft, they proceed to their ADIZ orbit zones to await their intercept vector.

In the interest of accuracy, the scramble instructions specified a 010 heading to FL 290. No distance, no location reference and no target was given. Langley Tower, Norfolk Departure, Giant Killer, Langley Command Post, and the SOF position all copied the instructions.

However, during taxi Langley tower issue a Departure Clearance of 090 heading for 60 NM, which was the standard departure out of Langley for a scramble. After take-off, Quit 25 (the flight leader) talked to Norfolk Departure about the clearance and they agreed the last instructions were 090/60. Neither of them keyed into the fact that they should have turned to the 010 heading ASAP and be sent to the NEADS frequency. There were a couple of frequency changes that seemed unnecessary. They continued on that heading and were handed off to Giant Killer. That's when NEADS noticed they were headed East bound and contacted Giant Killer to turn them to the North. They were with Giant Killer for only a minute or so until NEADS assumed AFIO and turned them toward Washington, DC.

When Maj. Eckmann was interviewed by the 911 Commission Staff, he was surprised that they hadn't turned sooner and noted that it was an "Opportunity Lost". It was a joint responsibility between Eckmann and Norfolk Departure to comply with the Scramble Instructions, but they blew it. There was no sabotage and no nefarious intent.

As I've reiterated already they could not have arrived in time to intercept AA 77 anyway. There is NO WAY a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile shot would have been authorized against a civilian airliner. So, as far as the final outcome the Easterly deviation made no difference.

The communications problems in the Washington area were primarily the fault of Washington ARTCC. NEADS had AFIO control, but the Washington Center controller wanted control and that resulted in a conflict. Washington Center's performance during their arrival in the DC area was one of INCOMPETENCE. Things improved dramatically once Washington Center released control to Reagan Approach Control for the refueling and subsequent CAP operations.

Swampfox the ordnance limiting speed is going to be classified. Please note that if you have access.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 26-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 26-5-2009 by Reheat]

If anyone is still under any delusions regarding fuel versus speed for an F-16, Quit 25 (the leader) had to refuel prior to one complete orbit in their CAP, which was just to the West of the Pentagon in a NE/SW orientation. He had only been airborne for about 30 minutes.

His fuel state was exacerbated by the fact that Washington ARTCC in their confusion pointed out a "bogey" to Quit 25, which turned out to be one of his wingmen who was in about a 5 nm trail position. I imagine he used afterburner for a short period until he realized the mistake by Washington.

While the leader was refueling the refueling track was moved to an improvised position to the South of Andrews AFB to make it more convenient for the wingmen.

Swampfox the ordnance limiting speed is going to be classified. Please note that if you have access.

Oh, dont worry, I do not plan on posting anything classified. I am, however, trying to get some of the weapons guys in my unit to get on ATS to offer their knowledge of what and what is not normally loaded on an F-16. Not sure how successful I will be, since one of the guys has had a run in or two with "truthers"....however, the rules do not allow me to post what he said in regards to all the air force "experts" in the "truth" movement.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

Swampfox the ordnance limiting speed is going to be classified. Please note that if you have access.

Oh, dont worry, I do not plan on posting anything classified. I am, however, trying to get some of the weapons guys in my unit to get on ATS to offer their knowledge of what and what is not normally loaded on an F-16. Not sure how successful I will be, since one of the guys has had a run in or two with "truthers"....however, the rules do not allow me to post what he said in regards to all the air force "experts" in the "truth" movement.

My reminder was not intended to be an insult at all. But, there are a lot of retired guys and others who post stuff on the 'net that should not be posted.

I can just imagine what currently Active Duty guys feel about "truthers". It's all I can do to restrain myself and people wonder why I am "acidic". It's perhaps good for them there are rules here or they would really see the rath of my attitude toward them.