Roswell Debris Confirmed As Extraterrestrial: Lab Located, Scientists Named!

Originally posted by mmiichael
The notion that there is this monolithic archestructure with top secret projects almost no one knows about is dispelled pretty quickly when you get to know these people and hear what they say.

lol, how do you figure projects to be top secret if everybody knows about them? i don't necessarily have a opinion on roswell one way or the other, but if i were to judge it based on this discussion; id have to go with frank simply because ure reasoning is seriously flawed in almost every post uve made

Originally posted by mmiichael
The notion that there is this monolithic archestructure with top secret projects almost no one knows about is dispelled pretty quickly when you get to know these people and hear what they say.

Hello Mike,

To what extent and how 'monolithic' exactly such a structure would be; nobody knows. However there is no doubt that black projects and highly classified way above top secret programs and groups indeed exist.

Granted I'll agree with you to the point that conspiracy theorists in cases most often take the concept to such an absurd and extreme level at times, but this does not and shouldnt preclude the notion itself at the most basic level.

For example, I implore you to take a look at some of the declassified documents concerning 'remote viewing' and the stargate program conducted under the administration of the CIA, John Greenwald Jr. is very generous to have put this all online for free, as well as thousands of other documents available for a wide range of subjects: Black Vault FOIA Docs / Research Center (Remote Viewing)

Take your time reading those documents and contemplate on the matter for a while. From my perspective; if this is only what has been declassified, then what about the highest classified material? - check it out Mike, you may arrive at the some of the conclusions myself and others have, who knows.

Best regards,

Afternoon Mike,

Originally posted by mmiichael
Despite an erroneous newspaper report there was no saucer crash in New Mexico in 1947. The Operation MOGUL, NYU balloon project, flight #4 was the only debris recovered by Mac Brazel and Jesse Marcel Sr.

The considerable substantiation for this can be found summarized on the link below.

Excerpted is some commentary by the author on why some people still choose to believe otherwise.

Mike

home.comcast.net...

Despite claims that General Ramey was involved in a cover-up, nothing can be farther from the truth. Many of the quotes from contemporary sources do not have Ramey saying it was definitely a weather balloon. Instead, he is quoted as identifying the debris as coming from a radar target and balloon/weather balloon. While not exactly a weather balloon, the debris in the photographs was from a series of balloons and radar reflectors. While he was not exactly correct, he did not lie about what was found.

Huh!? Here Printy contradicts himself in one paragraph! The Air Force has "admitted" to a "cover-up" in their report, "The Roswell Report" and there were a myriad of "newspaper reports" attributing the "weather balloon story" to Ramey. (I have all of the above).

Needless to say the response from the "Crash" authors was immediate and they began to question the report. For years, they had proposed that the witnesses had handled debris from an actual flying saucer. They rallied the faithful into a chorus of catcalls and trivializing of the report. However, they overlooked many of the obvious answers to their objections in an effort to make it seem that the report was flawed. Today, there are a significant number of UFOlogists, who have decided that the Project MOGUL explanation fits. It seems only the Roswell faithful and those who have invested a significant amount of time writing about the subject are hanging on to the UFO crash scenario.

Regardless of the "spin" that Printy wants to put on the Roswell minutiae, he can't deny facts; although the "Mogul theory" was debunked long ago, for "date and location" factors, the main over-riding element--is the fact that it's still a common "neoprene balloon!"

[...]

Almost all the crashed spaceship proponents knee-jerked at the possible explanation for the incident. Having spent thousands of hours and printed numerous books and movie deals, is it any wonder that they would try and find reasons, no matter how trivial, to reject the possibility that it was not an alien spaceship crash?

More flapdoodle!

The pro-crashed saucer advocates have taken their best shot. Unfortunately, they can not stand up to the documentation concerning NYU project. Their strong desire to grasp any minor point and inflate it to make it appear that the NYU balloon train could not fit the descriptions is a smoke screen designed to help the faithful maintain their conviction and not jump ship. However, the coincidences associated with the NYU flights and the events described by many of the witnesses are too close to ignore. Is it mere coincidence that the general description of the debris given by many witnesses is similar to the materials that Dr. Moore used in his flight #4? Is it mere coincidence that flight #4 was never recovered and that it was last seen in the area near the debris field? Is it mere coincidence that the alien hieroglyphics were purple/pink, the same color as the figures on the tape used by the reflectors? Is it mere coincidence that the NYU project was active in the New Mexico area at the correct time? Is it mere coincidence that the photographs of the debris in Ramey’s office show the same type of radar reflectors used by the NYU project

Moore himself said, "There wasn’t a balloon in use back in ‘47, or even today for that matter, that could have produced debris over such a large area or torn up the ground in any way"

As to what was shown in Rameys' office, the argument is that he was part of the cover-up, to which the Air Force has admitted!

[...]

It is clear that the author’s will never accept the flight #4 answer because they claim that they have overwhelming evidence to support their claim that an actual alien spaceship crashed near Roswell.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by mmiichael]

Mike, these old arguments were trumped long ago, and no matter what kind of spin debunkers want to put on it, Mogul was made up of neoprene balloons and rawin targets--nothing exotic. Moreover, Moore--the very person who was involved with Mogul clearly states that it could not produce that much debris, which was confirmed by the very witness you herald--Bessie Brazel

I think you were doing better with the "Nazi blue print prototypes." ;>)

Cheers,
Frank

[edit on 15-6-2009 by Frank Warren]

reply to post by Frank Warren


Exact link lacking.
A general page full of links I'd rather not take to search for an
obvious lie.

Every element we have the ETs have.
Nothing is new.

Advanced technology is hidden from the government labs as a
matter of course. Easy to confuse them with an advanced process.
Tesla had many processes the Illuminati say did not work, read any
book and see how many, but are still used in secret.

The UFO itself bring high technology from Tesla that is still a secret.

Originally posted by Frank Warren

Mike, these old arguments were trumped long ago, and no matter what kind of spin debunkers want to put on it, Mogul was made up of neoprene balloons and rawin targets--nothing exotic. Moreover, Moore--the very person who was involved with Mogul clearly states that it could not produce that much debris, which was confirmed by the very witness you herald--Bessie Brazel

I think you were doing better with the "Nazi blue print prototypes."

Hi Frank,

I went through the latest installment of your Warren Report. Each point has validity, but this all devolves somewhat to questioning sources and arguing interpretations rather than fact finding. There never seems to be more clarity, just increasing obfuscation.

At this point, like the JFK assassination investigation, I think the trail has been muddied by so many questionable reports and manipulation of data, and so much suggestion, it's nearly impossible to separate information from pseudo-information any more.

A point I tried to make, is that aside form UFO investigators there are people who were positioned to know about a crashed saucer and any breakthrough technologies that might arise, were keeping their eyes and ears open for the last 50 years.

Groundbreaking discovery of this magnitude attract interest and discussion is inevitable. Only in movies and bad fiction is there a world of zombie-like spooks, mad geniuses in lab coats, ultra-top secret facilities.

There are thousands of people who have worked on government projects and moved on to academia and the business world. They aren't all chained to a wall somewhere or sworn to secrecy with threats.

For th most part they are older guys who were once young. MAny entertained various conspiracy notions and were interesed in the UFO phenomenon when it was still fresh in the 50s and 60s.

I've been in the same room as guys who were around decades ago talking about near disaster nuclear facility mishaps, stolen government data, near collisions with WW III. These are people who would know if anyone would. The community is not that overwhelmingly huge. Friendships develop, even marriages. Almost nothing is completely kept secret. People talk.

You don't want to hear what they've said on those rare occasions when the ETH or UFOs come up.

Myself I don't doubt UFOs, accept the prospect of alien contact, believe the US govt is capable of practically anything.

But find the Roswell story does not add up to something important being kept secret for 60 years. There may be an as yet undisclosed component.
But I am pretty certain it doesn't involve a downed alien space craft.

With every extant scrap of paper being dug up and every old-timer interviewed a dozen times, and nothing solid ever emerging, I only become further convinced.

Thanks for listening,

Mike



[edit on 15-6-2009 by mmiichael]

I get the feeling that debunkers think that people like myself are all cranks who will believe anything.

Whereas they themselves will believe what ever is handed down by the authorities.

After all the authorities are there to protect us and tell us what to think right??

In this particular case we have someone who obviously genuinely believes that all that was found was tin foil, balsa wood and some markings that had come from common or garden scotch tape.

en.wikipedia.org...
“History
Foil made from a thin leaf of tin was commercially available before its aluminium counterpart. In the late 19th century and early 20th century, tin foil was in common use, and some people continue to refer to the new product by the name of the old one. Tin foil is stiffer than aluminium foil. It tends to give a slight tin taste to food wrapped in it, which is a major reason it has largely been replaced by aluminium and other materials for wrapping food.
The first audio recordings on phonograph cylinders were made on tin foil.
Tin was first replaced by aluminium starting in 1910, when the first aluminium foil rolling plant, “Dr. Lauber, Neher & Cie., Emmishofen.” was opened in Kreuzlingen, Switzerland. The plant, owned by J.G. Neher & Sons (aluminium manufacturers) started in 1886 in Schaffhausen, Switzerland, at the foot of the Rhine Falls - capturing the falls’ energy to produce aluminium. Neher's sons together with Dr. Lauber discovered the endless rolling process and the use of aluminium foil as a protective barrier.”
en.wikipedia.org...
Scotch Tape is a brand name used to describe certain pressure sensitive tapes manufactured by 3M as part of the company's Scotch brand.
The precursor to the current tapes was developed in the 1930s in Minneapolis, Minnesota by Richard Drew to seal a then-new transparent material known as cellophane.[1] Although it is a trademarked brand name, it is sometimes used in the US and elsewhere as a generic term for transparent adhesive tape. The Scotch brand includes many different constructions of tape.



He also believes that very high ranking air force personnel could mistake this for craft that had been widely reported as being able to reach speeds in excess of 10 times the speed of sound. When at that time humans had not officially broken the sound barrier.

So as I have said before you can’t have it both ways.

Either these high ranking air force officers found something very unusual or they should have been in charge of a car park, however and I don’t want to be insulting to car park attendants.

In my mind as bad a mistake as has been reported carried out by military personnel this could not be. They where not under any pressure no one was shooting at them there was not even a deadline to get the story out. This stuff was flown out of there base for analyses elsewhere.

It was also not something that the air force was missing at the time as if they had something that was very highly secret turn up missing this and all other bases would have been notified to keep a look out for anything found.

If that had been the case a hole regiment of military personnel would have been on that ranch picking this up not just two security officers.

So here is the crunch line it was a lie when the said authorities told of no more than a weather balloon. Sixty years latter the real story is still a secret, one can understand if they wanted to keep something from paper clip a secret back then but what ever the secrets may have been is surly common knowledge today.

So my only conclusion is that what ever the secret is, it is so devastating that it can never be released.

I have also heard that the secret can not be kept idea which to my mind is nonsense. Area 51, several 737’s leave Las Vegas every day for that destination and no one knows what goes on in there. In the 1940’s there was the Manhattan project and the vice president on becoming president had to be told what it was about. These are but two of many I am sure. There are hundreds if not thousands of people involved in both these projects. They don’t talk and it would seam that people have died who wanted to talk about Roswell.

Originally posted by MAC269

So my only conclusion is that what ever the secret is, it is so devastating that it can never be released.

I have also heard that the secret can not be kept idea which to my mind is nonsense. Area 51, several 737’s leave Las Vegas every day for that destination and no one knows what goes on in there. In the 1940’s there was the Manhattan project and the vice president on becoming president had to be told what it was about. These are but two of many I am sure. There are hundreds if not thousands of people involved in both these projects. They don’t talk and it would seam that people have died who wanted to talk about Roswell.

Pretty dramatic. I'll point out the atomic bomb secrets were not kept for long. Klaus Fuchs was selling H-bomb secrets to the Russians as early as 1947.

Your hundreds or thousands of people having pieces of the top secret Roswell secrets would invariably have to include professionals in their fields and academics. The military has only so much dedicated expertise and is always outsourcing. They can't all be silenced or eliminated, can they?

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they did discover an alien craft and bodies. Maybe it's been been successfully covered up for 62 years. Many claim this is the case.

I realize no string of worlds I type and no information from any source will change the conviction of those who believe that.

Mike

reply to post by mmiichael


Now there you go and you are right it’s one hell of a secret to keep.

That is what worries me.

I think one or two folks new about the atom bomb on the 6th of August 1945.

For one thing it has to be costing a fortune as there has to be quite literally an army of people keeping these folks in line.

Here is an idea suppose one of you friends in computers may be just say he was one of the really top boffinns in his field was approached by for the want of a better word the men in black. He is offered a chance to work on some really exotic stuff but he is told that he and his family will only ever be safe again so long as he never breaths a word of his work. Then he gets into the job and he is told the real reason.

What do you think??? He is going to tell you over a pint at the local pub??

You see this is what worries me about the whole subject.

On the one hand you have all these sightings by really credible witnesses, not to speak of what I saw one night myself.

Then on the other hand you have all these also credible Boffinns who say no way it’s all just Hollywood etc,.

Are these Boffinns just out of the loop, are they paid disinformation bodds??

My logic tells me this is about the magnitude of the secret. I have to tell you I flip this way and that myself.

Originally posted by MAC269
For one thing it has to be costing a fortune as there has to be quite literally an army of people keeping these folks in line.

Here is an idea suppose one of you friends in computers may be just say he was one of the really top boffinns in his field was approached by for the want of a better word the men in black. He is offered a chance to work on some really exotic stuff but he is told that he and his family will only ever be safe again so long as he never breaths a word of his work. Then he gets into the job and he is told the real reason.

What do you think??? He is going to tell you over a pint at the local pub??

When there's the biggest scientific story in all history, and fortune to be made, people talk. People talk anyway. And 3 generations later no deathbed confessions, no paperwork of any kind from anyone. Not even credible rumours if you're strict about credibility.

What you say may be true in the world of fiction. But human beings I've known rarely behave like the ciphers on the written page and in the movies.
The bigger the story the harder it is to keep under wraps.

The beans have been spilled on everything after a while. Except the big Roswell cover-up. So hundred or even thousands by now, have gone to their grave without a word. And an army of three generations of spooks have kept them in line, the research documentation under wraps, auxiliary support staff in the dark, and so on.

Maybe.


M

reply to post by mmiichael


Now see you are back to it again, the stealth bomber was kept under wrapes until they needed to use it, about ten years I believe most likely the cause of many of the UFO sighting out of A51. No one knew about it did they??

See if they can keep that secret then what about the big secret??

OK so suppose I am wrong sure as hell it will not be the first time and for sure I am still trying to work this lot out.

So what is your line on all this stuff that is quite obviously flying around??

Sure some up grades from the skunk works but there is way more than that.

Originally posted by MAC269
So what is your line on all this stuff that is quite obviously flying around??

This isn't the discussion forum for what I know and what I believe on UFOs.

I think I posted a comment on how I see it all.

There are thing happening that people are seeing. Much of the perception and descriptions are culturally based. If you are in a mode where something unknown is a ghost or some kind of spirit, that's what you see. If you're receptive to the Christian myth cycle, you'll see Jesus, the Virgin Mary, or what what you think is some manifestation thereof.

In our technologically era and with prompting from Science Fiction we see spaceships. Curiously they seem to conform to car designs in therms of clunkiness vs increasingly streamlined as we move from the 40s to the present.

We generate our perceptual matrix to a large extent. Sort of like the Windows or Mac graphic user interface environment on your computer.
But disruptions inside your brain, your operating system, or external, like an electric power surge or bad connection, can alter what's on the screen or the signals to your mind.

The environment we consider so stable and predictable is less so than we realize. We find this when we experiment with psychotropic chemicals. The grass isn't necessarily green any more. Sometimes we start to see things that are otherwise invisible in our every day consensus reality. They are there but not to our every day eyes. Just the way things beyond our bounded spectrum between infra-red and ultra-violet are there.

Very late here.

More maybe tomorrow.


Mike




[edit on 15-6-2009 by mmiichael]

Besides the date and location factors, the other debunking of the MOGUL theory is shown by the government's own actions. Prior to this event, a lost MOGUL balloon and/or array wasn't a big deal. None of the components were classified, they were all off the shelf. Only the purpose of MOGUL was classified. If it were a MOGUL array, there would not have been...

1. military cordons established, as testified by witnesses encountering the cordon.
2. flights of the debris to Wright Field and Ft. Worth (why would you send your own tech, and all of it easily recognizable, to the top centers for analyzing foreign tech?)
3. the report that tried to tell us the talk of bodies must be dummies from High Dive, an operation that was 5 years after the event!

In addition, you'd have to accept that the top-ranking intel officers from the only air base deemed secure enough to carry nuclear ordinance, could somehow mistake balsa wood and foil paper (like from a Hershey bar) for something out of this world.... If they were truly that incompetent, we'd all be speaking Russian right now...

Originally posted by Gazrok
you'd have to accept that the top-ranking intel officers from the only air base deemed secure enough to carry nuclear ordinance, could somehow mistake balsa wood and foil paper (like from a Hershey bar) for something out of this world.... If they were truly that incompetent, we'd all be speaking Russian right now...

I don't think it exactly reduces to the either/or you state.

More like a concern there may have been some sort of espionage using weather balloons or similar low tech.

We do have the picture of Marcel holding the weather balloon debris, and I think that speaks volumes.

Smart people sometimes make serious judgement errors. We have to always hope that doesn't happen too often or in critical situations.

I know it's an extremely unpopular stance to take dismissing the whole Roswell situation to a Comedy of Errors.

Continuing interest is predicated on the belief that there was contact with something extraordinary. And that the US military and government have been hiding this knowledge all this time.

I don't think any argument or anything that comes to light will make those who believe in this retreat from their position.


Mike

Mornin' Mike,

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Frank Warren

Mike, these old arguments were trumped long ago, and no matter what kind of spin debunkers want to put on it, Mogul was made up of neoprene balloons and rawin targets--nothing exotic. Moreover, Moore--the very person who was involved with Mogul clearly states that it could not produce that much debris, which was confirmed by the very witness you herald--Bessie Brazel

I think you were doing better with the "Nazi blue print prototypes."

Hi Frank,

I went through the latest installment of your Warren Report. Each point has validity, but this all devolves somewhat to questioning sources and arguing interpretations rather than fact finding. There never seems to be more clarity, just increasing obfuscation.

Au contraire mon ami . . . respectfully I have to disagree. I would argue that it is just that--fact finding!

When the Air Force offered up "Project Mogul" for their causari to explain the "cover-up" by the "weather balloon story," they overlooked the fact that the same argument applies to MOGUL" i.e., same neoprene balloons, same rawin targets.

At this point, like the JFK assassination investigation, I think the trail has been muddied by so many questionable reports and manipulation of data, and so much suggestion, it's nearly impossible to separate information from pseudo-information any more.

Again I have to disagree; there certainly is a boatload of "spin"; however, the core data remains the same.

A point I tried to make, is that aside form UFO investigators there are people who were positioned to know about a crashed saucer and any breakthrough technologies that might arise, were keeping their eyes and ears open for the last 50 years.

Groundbreaking discovery of this magnitude attract interest and discussion is inevitable. Only in movies and bad fiction is there a world of zombie-like spooks, mad geniuses in lab coats, ultra-top secret facilities.

With the exception of the latter (i.e., top secret facilities) I don't think anyone has injected a "B-movie scenario." such as you cite; additionally, there is no argument (at least from me) that "people were in the know" . . . in fact some of the brightest minds in the country were involved almost from day one in regards to Ufology.

Accordingly, any groundbreaking discoveries, inventions etc., controlled by the government/military are slow to surface (to the public domain), and secrets are kept--case in point--the F-117 Nighthawk.

There are thousands of people who have worked on government projects and moved on to academia and the business world. They aren't all chained to a wall somewhere or sworn to secrecy with threats.

Many are in fact "sworn to secrecy" and or "nondisclosure agreements" as a matter of protocol for "top-shelf projects."

For th most part they are older guys who were once young. MAny entertained various conspiracy notions and were interesed in the UFO phenomenon when it was still fresh in the 50s and 60s.

I've been in the same room as guys who were around decades ago talking about near disaster nuclear facility mishaps, stolen government data, near collisions with WW III. These are people who would know if anyone would. The community is not that overwhelmingly huge. Friendships develop, even marriages. Almost nothing is completely kept secret. People talk.

The above example Mike, is nonsensical (no offense)." Classification, compartmentalization and need to know are employed to keep secrets; just because some folks you know, aren't "in the know" means nothing.

You don't want to hear what they've said on those rare occasions when the ETH or UFOs come up.

Myself I don't doubt UFOs, accept the prospect of alien contact, believe the US govt is capable of practically anything.

Ignorance on various subject matter in not just inherent to the uneducated.

But find the Roswell story does not add up to something important being kept secret for 60 years. There may be an as yet undisclosed component.
But I am pretty certain it doesn't involve a downed alien space craft.

I agree that there is much more to learn. Again, I would suggest to "remove" the alien spacecraft from your thinking, and start with the fact that "it wasn't a balloon."

With every extant scrap of paper being dug up and every old-timer interviewed a dozen times, and nothing solid ever emerging, I only become further convinced.

Thanks for listening,

Mike

[edit on 15-6-2009 by mmiichael]

Again, in my view--just the opposite is taking place.

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Frank Warren


i'm interested to know how you deal with Marcels statement that he was only ever photographed with genuine debris from the ranch. If that is true we know from the photos it was balloon material recovered.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by yeti101]

Hi Yeti!

Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

i'm interested to know how you deal with Marcels statement that he was only ever photographed with genuine debris from the ranch. If that is true we know from the photos it was balloon material recovered.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by yeti101]

That was "Bill Moore's statement"--not Marcel's. When "shown the actual picture," Marcel said, "the photographs did not show the material that he had found on the ranch. They were staged photographs" (Morley interview, Mann interview).

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Frank Warren


thanks thats very interesting.

reply to post by Frank Warren


Thanks for your input Frank. Any one who has followed, researched & read all the relevant information regarding the Roswell Incident knows the weather baloon & other lies are just disinformation for the cover-up.

Those who read the brilliant Nick Pope's books Open Skies, Closed Minds & The Uninvited understand how all the witnesses within the Air force/Military/public, - not just Major Jesse Marcel, who saw & touched the debris, know the truth.

Everyone also should read the information provided by certain ufologists, researchers, writers & witnesses, that helped Nick Pope's investigations & his books.

Cheers

[edit on 15-6-2009 by Skyline666]

Despite their dubious nature, the Majestic 12 documents make interesting reading, the alleged Twining report dated Friday 19 September 1947.

President Truman was out of the country, sailing to Brazil for three weeks and returned to the White House Saturday 20 September. Here's the link to his personal diary entries for the 20th and the 21st.

The entry for the 21st, I find, oddly out of character coming from the always confident Truman at a time when things seemed relatively quiet, well after the end of the war, before Korea, the Berlin Airlift and the Soviets becoming a nuclear power. Perhaps things had just piled up while he was away . . . or he read a "White Hot" report.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by fls13]