Should there be 13 zodiac signs?

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I hate to admit it but most of what my ancestors knew is lost to time...
I have stood on in the middle of Big Horn medicine wheel in Wyoming, and wondered just what did they know? as a child I remember my father taking me to Fajada Butte in Chaco Canyon, standing before the sun dagger watching that thin line of sunlight move across the spiral there... "What does it mean dad"? "I don't know, but its cool isn't it"?
Such a shame so much all that lore was lost and were only now starting to understand just how much we they knew and we don't!

What I do know is we didn't do zodiac signs... they did what were called moon castings... I'm no expert but I know its not just a simple 28 day cycle the moon had a longer 18 year cycle and those very smart Anasazi had it all figured out some 2,000 years ago...

reply to post by DaddyBare

I hate to admit it but most of what my ancestors knew is lost to time... I have stood on in the middle of Big Horn medicine wheel in Wyoming, and wondered just what did they know? as a child I remember my father taking me to Fajada Butte in Chaco Canyon, standing before the sun dagger watching that thin line of sunlight move across the spiral there... "What does it mean dad"? "I don't know, but its cool isn't it"? Such a shame so much all that lore was lost and were only now starting to understand just how much we they knew and we don't!

I am a whitey, and not saying I am responsible (I'm too young), but I do feel sorry that has happened. Thats the crap that capitalist conquest does. Thats one reason why we need to get rid of capitalism.
When you write about the sun moving across the spiral, that puts me in mind of some of the ancient structures found in Britain. The Grooved Ware people used a lot of spiral motifs in their artworks and buildng design, and like you ancestors, used burial mounds (we call them Bryns)-only some Bryns were not used for burials!? Confussing eh?
There spirals were to do with the suns shadow cast on the ground from two upright posts, through the coarse of a year. The spirals would turn one way and then the other, until there was a doulble-helix shape. The ancients would plot the path of the shdow in the sand.
Its strange, this double spiral would take 9 months to complete, the same time as human gestation.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Let me point out it would be a very serious mistake to say we fell victim to conquest... we didn't... It was germs not bullets that did us in... we had absolutely no immunity to even the common measles, chicken pox... typically nothing more than a mild inconvenience to europeans, to us deadly and swept through the nations like wildfire... Almost over night entire villages were just gone...Why, we'd been exposed to versus we'd never seen before... Makes you wonder whats going to happen now that H1N1 is here doesn't it...

But getting back to your topic all of Choco Canyon's buildings are laid out along Lunar and solar alignments...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3bf20ae26e1a.jpg[/atsimg] Moon in a window within the great Kiva
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/32ad8bf472c4.jpg[/atsimg] Noon sun over the sun dagger... it's gone now BTW landslide claimed it
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9293eb457d22.jpg[/atsimg] what it looked like like when it was still working

[edit on 24-5-2009 by DaddyBare]

[edit on 24-5-2009 by DaddyBare]

reply to post by DaddyBare


Some interesting photos there. Seems there is lots of amazing ancient structures that commonly aline with the equinoxes, venus, and lunar cyclic phenomenon. Wonder if there are any that are indicative of a 13th Zodiac constellation.
As said before Orion has significance in this respect, eg: the giza pyramids' relationship to Orions belt. not sure if there has been any thing discovered that would indicate the same importance to Ophiucus

This thread got me thinking that the earth must go through cycles of years lasting between 360 and 366 days, thus the varying calendars. Over time the suns activity could change the gravitational pull on earth which moves us closer or further away from the sun, thus making the orbit longer or shorter.

This could lead one to believe that possibly the end of the mayan calendar corresponds to the peak(longest) year and is the point when years start getting shorter again as we drift back toward the sun.

One would think that if these cycles existed, and since we would be near our furthest point from the sun, that we should be having an ice age currently. If this were the case then the damage we have caused our atmosphere may have actually saved us from that ice age. But on the flip side that would also mean as we move closer, everyone will be living in the tropics, at least until forced underground.

Maybe thats the story. Mankind basically destroys itself each time we move back towards the sun due to damage we have done to the earth. It then takes a cycle back away (an ice age) and then towards again until manking flourishes once again.

The again maybe this post belongs in skunks works, as current science can possibly debunk most of what I said. Sorry for the babble.

This is a quick history that I posted on another site querying this subject that I thought may be of interest to anyone:

First facts:

There are 13 constellations/Zodiacs, missing is Ophuicus!
There was NO equal sign Zodiac before 550BC, (Talking about the "12" zodiacs)
Individual Horoscopes were not used until AFTER 400BC,
By the 1st Century BC, star related positions dropped out of use.
The Greeks, whom gave us the current Zodiac, did not have a Zodiac, this was given to them by the Babylonians, which the Greeks then adopted as their own, this was then "forgotten" about for sometime, and re-raised by the Middle age gurus.
Claudius Ptolemy 90AD - 168AD, spoke of Hipparchos 120BC - 120BC, whom had suggested that the Zodiac should begin at the Vernal Equinox, rather than 10 to 8 Deg away from it, which WAS what the true Babylonian Atronomers had indicated. But Vernal Equinox theory was rejected at first, then 300 years later Ptolemy was re read by the Middle Age Astrologers and it made it part of the Astrological Orthodoxy.
What this then did was tie the Zodiac to the Roman Calander, and because of this its now COMPLETLY our of touch with the stars, as the dates of the Zodiac are fixed to the Calander.
Ophiucus is an "Original" sun sign.

The traditional Zodiac:
Pisces Feb 19 - Mar 20
Aries Mar 21 - Apr 19
Taurus Apr 20 - May 20
Gemini May 21 - Jun 20
Cancer Jun 21 - Jul 22
Leo Jul 23 - Aug 22
Virgo Aug 23 - Sept 22
Libra Sep 23 - Oct 22
Scorpio Oct 23 - Nov 21
Sag Nov 22 - Dec 21
Cap Dec 22 - Jan 19
Aquarius Jan 20 - Feb 18

Now compare

Galactical Zodiac:

Pisces Mar 12 - Apr 18
Aries Apr 19 - May 13
Taurus May 14 - Jun 19
Gemini Jun 20 - July 20
Cancer Jul 21 - Aug 9
Leo Aug 10 - Sep 15
Virgo Sept 16 - Oct 30
Libra Oct 31 - Nov 22
Scorpio Nov 23 - Nov 29
Ophuicus Nov 30 - Dec 17
Sag Dec 18 - Jan 18
Cap Jan 19 - Feb 15
Aquarius Feb 15 - Mar 11

This is refered to as the Blunder:

Book Zodiacs Old and New:

Cyril Fagan:
1896 - 1970

Cyril is refering to the tying of the Zodiac to the Calander:

" This was the greatest blunder that has ever been made in the history of Astrology"

Now with this in mind, do you think current Zodiac readings would be reliable...

Well according to this its not. It is out of touch with the real concept of Star Signs.

reply to post by The_Seeker

This was the greatest blunder that has ever been made in the history of Astrology" Now with this in mind, do you think current Zodiac readings would be reliable... Well according to this its not. It is out of touch with the real concept of Star Signs.

Hi seeker, great post!
I suppose that sun cycles may indeed effect the Earth in this manner, but I guess the way to examine this would be to see if this phenomenon exists for the other planets also, particularly Mercury and venus. Here i would guess that the variation would be of greatest, and therefore, more easily observable. Although we already know that orbits are never truly circular, but eliptical (hence the term apogee and perigee). I do understand that you are speaking of this in a regard that is minute and only marginal in the coarse of millenia.
I'm not sure if it was this thread, but I have previously written about the arbitrary nature of the modern horoscope.
A friend of mines partener work for a major newspaper as a typesetter. each day she would quickly choose 12 preformulated captions for the daily horoscope printed for the coming day, there was a sheet with hundreds of these captions. So, utter crap!
thay were written in such a way that, being so vague and common, could be attributed to anyones life; no matter what walk of life.
Although personized charts are far more accurate, they still dont compensate for the anomaly of the missing 13th zodiac; ever wondered about someone born on "the cusp" having attributes of both signs?

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Isnt it funny though. When you bring up the current holes in our Zodiac, everyone is like, well it doesnt matter I have been working with them for years and found them to be fine, or its all wrong and the research on this is just another conspiracy!
Better the devil hey

reply to post by The_Seeker


Where ever there is money, there is corruption. Fortune telling is a huge business; it surely always had been.
There are plenty of individuals whom feel at the mercy of their own lives enough, to seek guidence from means such as this or the tarot, etc.
I am not suggesting that there are no real psychics; quite the contrary. I'm just saying that like anything, there are the good, and the atrociously bad. there are even those that don't hold one once of interest or faith in these occult methods. Plain and simply; just there for the dollars.

reply to post by DaddyBare

I have read that knowledge is cyclical ascending and descending over time and although I don't understand how this might work I am beginning to believe that it is so. It is quite obvious that knowledge from some of the ancient civilizations around the world was forgotten and is slowly being relearned. The more that is learned about these ancient monoliths corroborate this and I believe that there is a lot more yet to find. So in my heart I feel that all is not lost.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Understanding celestial motions is not an easy thing to do and I find it difficult to express what little I know in words, just remember everything is in motion.

The plane of the ecliptic is the path Earth makes around the Sun, or you could say the path the Sun makes across the sky. So the ecliptic is the base (zero angle) that all other angles are measured from, i.e. inclined orbits and axial tilts (or obliquity to orbit).

Our Moon's orbit is inclined to the ecliptic by 5.145 degrees and its orbital path intersects the ecliptic at two points called nodes, one ascending and one descending. If there is a node crossing during a full or new Moon then an eclipse can be expected. The Moon's orbital plane wobbles, or precess' clockwise, which cause these nodes to move taking 18.6 years to come full circle. Orbital info source from Planetary Fact Sheets. Moon orbit info from Wiki.

As far as I know all of the planet's orbital planes wobble over time in various speeds and directions but I don't know about their axial tilts.

[edit on 5/27/2009 by Devino]

While doing some reading on the enigma of the 360 day year I found an answer to something that has perplexed me for quite some time. I can understand the origin of a 360 degree circle deriving from a 360 day year, although controversial it makes sense. But what about the correlations to the subcategories?

1. 1/360 of a year = 1 day----------1/360 of a circle = 1 degree
   
2. 1 day = 24 hours------------------1 deg = 60 arc minutes
   
3. 1 hr = 60 minutes-----------------1 arc min = 60 arc seconds
   
4. 1 min = 60 seconds---------------????
   

It doesn't add up, something is missing.

Reading about Vedic astronomy I learn the Savana Versa consists of a 360 degree circle and a 360 day Earth year. The astronomer Aryabhata says a year consists of 12 months with 30 days for each month and a day is divided differently.

1. 1/360 of a year = 1 day-----------1/360 of a circle = 1 degree
   
2. 1 day = 60 Nadikas----------------1 deg = 60 arc minutes
   
3. 1 Nadikas = 60 Vinadikas---------1 arc min = 60 arc seconds
   

This makes sense. Our concept of the Hour was derived from Hora, which is half a Rasi. 12 Rasis equal a solar day so there are 24 Horas per day or 24 hours.

Furthermore 1 month is a Lunar cycle of 30 days consisting of 12 cycles or months per year (12x30=360 days). There are also 12 zodiac signs on the ecliptic to locate positions in space.

Obviously there are more then 360 days in a year and a lunar cycle is less then 30 days (29.53 d). The only way this measurement of time could work without intercalary days is if the Earth's year was once only 360 days.

A 360 day year of 12 lunar cycles with 30 days each seem to be used by the ancient Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Hebrews, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Mayans, Peruvians and perhaps originating from the Hindu Vedas. There does not appear at the time these calendars were made to be any corrections or adjustments. It is quite ridiculous to assert that all of these civilizations had a error of over 5 days per year in there calendars. Intercalary periods came at a later date adding 5 days and these days were considered unpropitious and even feared.

Here is a link to some good reading and the source for most of this info. A controversial author writing about a controversial subject. Velikovsky and the Change in our Calendar.

A month is the amount of time between new Moons and in the not so distant past lunar cycles of 35 to 36 days were recorded. This gave way for an 11 month and even a 10 month year as recorded in numerous examples. The cause for this controversial change in the length of Earth's year and lunar cycles is in my opinion the heart of ancient astrology.

[edit on 5/28/2009 by Devino]

reply to post by Devino

A month is the amount of time between new Moons and in the not so distant past lunar cycles of 35 to 36 days were recorded. This gave way for an 11 month and even a 10 month year as recorded in numerous examples. The cause for this controversial change in the length of Earth's year and lunar cycles is in my opinion the heart of ancient astrology.

Hi devino, great post. Boy , you have done some home work here!
I agree with all said. I'll look more carefully at the stats early in your post and attempt to give a perspective on your last 'unknown' value.
In the quote above, I think its interesting what you have said here also.
With changing Lunar cycles and so forth, I think it would be probable that Astrologers have remained within a 'timewarp'.
That is to say, whatever particular Lunar cycle was apparent at the 'invention' of their particular system, albeit, Babalonian, Peruvian etc; is the Lunar cycle that there system is based. This 'fixed Lunar view' does not account for the discrepancy that you have outlined above.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I think my missing value is the Vedic Nadikas, 60 Nadikas = 1 day instead of 24 hours. Our concept of time is simply measuring different motions and comparing them so I thought a degree in longitude should equate to the motion of the Earth's rotation.

The 24 hour day messed it up and has bugged me for some time now. I am still unsure why a day was divided into 24 hours rather then 60, which leads to why a 12 hour clock, and these Vedic words are new to me but at least I found what appears to be the origin of 360.

After reading the overwhelming amount of ancient calendric references attesting to a 360 day year I took some time to reflect on the level of arrogance our historians needed to dismiss all of this as ignorant superstition, it seemed unbelievable.

I forgot to mention the existence of physical evidence like ancient shadow clocks and water clocks that seem to no longer work and the many temples which have been rebuilt several times to account for a change in the cardinal points. Indeed if this is true then such physical evidence would show this to be the case.

Lunar cycles are interesting but many ancient civilizations were more concerned with the cycles of the planet Venus, and for good reason. However, this is a start to another interesting story. A story that has been dismissed as ignorant superstition and nonsense in opposition to a myriad of testaments, myths and folklore and even some physical evidence.

reply to post by Devino


As posted before, the fact that some cultures have traditionally used mathematical systems with the base number of 6, and not 10, speaks volumes in regard to this subject also.

Originally posted by Devino
reply to post by KRISKALI777

 

Lunar cycles are interesting but many ancient civilizations were more concerned with the cycles of the planet Venus, and for good reason. However, this is a start to another interesting story. A story that has been dismissed as ignorant superstition and nonsense in opposition to a myriad of testaments, myths and folklore and even some physical evidence.

Its interesting that you should point this out.
In a recent thread about the Terra Papers, someone happened to mention that our moon it not our real moon, and that it seems fake, according to current theory, I do have some basis of belief in this, but am waiting still to see the evidence of what our moon really is, but I digress...
Anyways I pointed out that the moon in ancient "mythology" was a new invention as such. According to myth (and I would have to say, I feel good reason to believe this) Venus was our "moon" as such, that was why it was used as a point of reference.
I will look for the thread if you interested and you can see the info that came about, again, I am feeling lazy.

But what I find most interesting, which was also pointed out earlier, was that we seem to be moving toward the knowledge of the Ancients.
This to me I have also seen. I honestly believe that they had more help than was initially thought, and it has also been proven many a time over again that MAYBE just MAYBE we should start taking what they say for actual fact.
A really good example is in Chine there was this "Myth" or tall red haired people that had come to visit the land and made a home, and they brought with them some great knowledge.... or something similar to those line, but it was an actual fact as not too long ago they discovered the mummified remains of such people.
What about Dragons.... did you ever to stop and consider that they are not myth.... There is a doco that has been out for quite sometime, and NEWS article that show that this myth was in actual fact real, they have bodies of men and... guess what a Dragon. Yep laugh at me if you like, but I can provide a link, but would prefer you to do the footwork, more exciting that way
Now to me there is a lot that has been so hidden, but due to the fruition of the net, and people that have either had enough, or started voicing what they have experienced with regards to all stuff considered "supernatural" things are changing, and they are changing fast.
No longer can the powers that be consider us stupid, we know more now than they really realise, and because of this we are moving ever faster into a new world.



[edit on 29-5-2009 by The_Seeker]

reply to post by The_Seeker


Another question, where has the attributions of each zodiac sign originated, and why? I find it intriguing that these signs related to totally different and some are mythical beasts.
If there were a 13th sign, in Ophiucus (the serpent bearer)- what would this be representative of?
I've heard that the Chinese zodiac attributions were chosen by the order of what animals came in succession to visit the Buddha, first being the Rat, and lastly the Pig.
This is explained by the occurrence of some Buddhist statues, showing a rat next to the Buddha.
Then again Buddha was originally Hindu, and similarly we see the Hindu God Ganesha, with the company of a rat also.

reply to post by The_Seeker


I remember parts of a myth about interactions between our Moon and Venus and then our Moon and Mars. I don't recall how it all played out or the source but as far as I know our Moon has been with us a long time. If you can find those myths online I would be interested in any links. I should point out that even though I've been reading about several pretty wild theories lately I don't care much for the Terra Papers.

As for the dragon motifs found around the world There seem to be many similarities. The dragon (Asia/Europe), feathered serpent (Central/South America) or Thunderbird (North America) was first malevolent attacking the Earth raining down fire and shooting lightning from its eyes burning everything then later becoming a symbol for knowledge/wisdom, the bringer of life and fertility, torch bearer, illumination and the planet Venus.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Mythology viewed from an academic perspective as a product of ignorance and superstition with no real historical value is something I was never interested in (similar to modern astrology considered as pseudoscience). My interest changed as I began to learn more about past civilizations and what they knew.

Ancient myths will never be accepted as evidence of past events nor should they. I don't think they were ever meant to be taken literally or used as proof in some debate. I feel the original intention was to use them as a way to teach us how past events effected those that survived thus molding humanity and to help us better understand ourselves.

What I have gained from this perspective is not only an interest in ancient myths but also ancient astrologers and astronomers. More importantly I have gained respect for the wisdom of these people. Knowledge is a cyclical progression, not linear, so times of great wisdom and awful ignorance come and go. Making the assertion that the ancients did not have an advanced understanding of geometry or astronomy therefor they must have had help in order to explain megalithic structures can be, in itself, viewed as ignorance and superstition IMO.

Roman historians like Josephus and Tacitus were known to have a rhetorical style of writing in an attempt to express how dramatic some events were such as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I think many myths were done in a similar manner. Depicting celestial bodies as gods, space as the heavens and the interaction between celestial bodies (comets, planets and moons) as relationships and sometimes battles. Giving the planets personalities with titles like the god of war or the goddess of love is a way of preserving the knowledge it may contain by making the story dramatic and memorable.

I don't think the information in these myths were just symbolic, there seems to be evidence of physical correlations. Jupiter is called the King of the planets; Zeus, Ana, Baal or Amon-Ra. King of the 12 gods in the heavens (zodiac). For every Earth year Jupiter moves ahead one zodiac sign making just under 12 oppositions (close approach for higher orbit planets) with Earth in one Jupiter year. Venus is called Lucifer by the Greeks which makes a 5 pointed star (pentagram) in its inferior conjunctions (close approach for lower orbit planets) returning to near the original spot as the first off by less then 2 1/2 days. There is more info that I posted about Venus in the thread, Was Planet Venus a Comet?

The constellations could very well work the same way, being attributed to animals, people or other creatures with personalities that represent a deeper meaning. Ophiuchus as the serpent bearer could have many meanings, he stands before the Milky Way which often has been considered a large serpent. I have been finding bits and pieces of stories that are very interesting but honestly I feel pretty lost when it comes to myths.

reply to post by Devino


Link as request. I have a better one, but as per normal, I cant find it. But if you do a bit of research on Google re Mythology on Venus and the Moon I am sure you will find some interesting things

www.varchive.org...

reply to post by The_Seeker


I have been busy lately but I wanted to reply back to thank you for the link to Velikovsky's archive, I think his work is very interesting and there looks like a lot of stuff to read there. The page,"The Earth Without the Moon", is a bit too vague with details about myths of a time before the Moon. Since this is from one of Velikovsky's unpublished and incomplete manuscripts I'm guessing there is more to this or at least it is in reference to something else.

However I did spend time searching online for the mythological figures in this story and I found a lot of different claims. Athene and Aphrodite sometimes get mixed up;

1. Athene was possibly the Moon attacking Aphrodite (Venus)
   
2. Aphrodite was possibly the Moon ensnared with Aries (Mars)
   
3. Aphrodite was the daughter of Zeus (Jupiter) or maybe the daughter of Uranus
   
4. Athene was the daughter of Zeus who swallowed her mother, Metis, while she was pregnant giving birth to Athene by cleaving Zeus' head
   
5. Athene is ambiguously associated with Pallas further confusing things and asserting Athene as the daughter of Poseidon (Neptune)
   
6. Aphrodite is claimed not to be the same as Venus.
   

I started to get lost somewhere after this point so I'll have to continue searching when I get more time. I am beginning to get an understanding of these ancient myths as an astronomical historical record. These myths have been corrupted in more recent times through its retelling and translation in an attempt to make sense to the culture at that time. From this point of view I can see the reason why many myths are confusing often conflicting each other making it easy to dismiss them as fantasy.