Atheist congregation meets every Sunday morning to discuss how they've rejected organized religion

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Deaf Alien

 

Organized truth you say?

I could see a Christian trying to assert the same thing about his or her belief system. But my point is, if it is a truth then how come you cannot prove that it is?

Why are you laughing?

Organized religion: 2 + 2 = 5

Organized truth: 2 + 2 = 4

2 + 2 = 5

For example, some organized religions will have you believe that Earth is 6,000 (or at most 10,000) years old).

Organized truth, i.e. science, will tell you that the Earth is older than that.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
If a kid asked his parents why the sky was blue. Christian parents would say it's because God created it that way.

Not necessarily true, and somewhat narrow-minded of you to think so. Most believers realise that God created everything, but not necessarily 'out of the blue'.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
A scientist (not necessarily an atheist) would say its because of Rayleigh scattering. Which kid learn faster? Which has more imagination? Which has more possibilities?

Now I hate to be the narrow-minded person here (), but this is what happens when carpenters or home-owners (not necessarily an atheist ) deign to call themselves 'scientists'. You get a lot of buzzwords like "Rayleigh scattering" "ad populum", "causality" and "atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour". These factets may very well be true, but a person doesn't become a 'scientist' just because they know how to use them. Thus these 'scientists' end up being just as restricted and non-growing as their religious counterparts (in your example).

Anyhow, no child in the entire universe would be satisfied if they were thrown the term "Rayleigh scattering" (unless they've learned to emulate from their parents the feeling of being superior by using fancy language to denote simple things). Tell them instead that light bounces off everything, even the air, and explain how this makes the blue more prominent, etc.

As far as imagination goes, yeah, maybe throwing the term 'Rayleigh scattering" at your kids would work. They'd end up believing that some guy named Rayleigh is up in the air, throwing about bits of blue colour or something.


PS:

For example, when 6-year-old Evan Spiering announced one day that "God created the world," his father, Todd Spiering, answered, "Grandpa believes that. Some people believe other things."

Spiering, 31, a self-employed carpenter who hosted the gathering Sunday, said he wants his three children to question and probe.

"We don't have to act like we have it all figured out," Spiering said. "I'm more comfortable not knowing."

This whole "there are other options" stuff doesn't really serve to "expand the kids mind". If you tell the kid that "Yeah, some people believe that, but others believe this, and still others believe this other thing", the kid will come to believe that the answer doesn't matter, and it is all irrelevant, and thus be "brainwashed" (as militant atheists often like to put it) into following exactly what the parent believes, and what the parent wanted them to follow. Just because Spiering is more comfortable not knowing, doesn't mean that is an appropriate attitude to take towards life. It is just Spierings attitude, and (in a very unscientific way) it has no basis in fact.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by babloyi]

reply to post by Deaf Alien


Yes, and I can decide to call a cow green. Doesn't make it so. And science is not truth I hate to tell you. It's subject to the same limitations and vagrancies of human nature that it's creator mankind is. Just like that thing you demonize called religion.

Originally posted by Unregistered
One cannot be an advocate of one side by basic surface comparison. You have to study them exhaustively side by side before making any conclusions.

You sir are correct! I am a Christian for the most part, but as part of my quest for the truth, I also lived as an aetheist!!

And I believe the best religion is to never ever stop questioning and never stopping at anything!!

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Sorry to rain on your parade but, anything can be a religion.

If atheism is a religion, then theists would have no reason to criticise atheism being taught in schools as part of religious education.


Since you seem to not quite get it yet, let me try to explain:
The difference between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God, is that the first is a belief, the second is a lack of that belief.

If you, Watcher-InThe-Shadows, do not believe in unicorns, by your reasoning that is a religion.

I dont get why people cant understand this. Maybe it is because these people are so caught up in their own religious beliefs that they cannot imagine any person living without religion of some sort.

You should check out the definition of religion.

A lack of religion, is a lack of religion... not "doing the same thing as religion and calling it a different name so nobody will notice... I hope."

The same thing as religion? They meet and discuss..
The SAME thing as religion???
Religion has:

prayer, churces, scripture, leaders, belief in supernatural, Afterlife, Lifestyle restrictions (dress, diet, marriage), Blasphemy etc..

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Yes, and I can decide to call a cow green. Doesn't make it so. And science is not truth I hate to tell you. It's subject to the same limitations and vagrancies of human nature that it's creator mankind is. Just like that thing you demonize called religion.

The point is:

Is organized religion willing to adapt? Change? Grow?

It took the church over 1,000 years to accept Heliocentrism. Science? Very short time. You tell me. Which grows faster?

Organized religion SLOWS down learning and discoveries.

Since when did meeting in a park with like-minded people become religious?

The point you make about this being the 'beginnings' of organised religion is a tenuous link at best, more sarcastic than anything.

One of the main differences with atheism which many find hard to grasp, is that there is no dogma and no absolutes - apart from the lack of God...

The beliefs of many atheists stems from scientific observations and our own grasp of the universe. This is always changing on a day-by-day basis and this is intringent to the development of new ideas about our universe. There is no religion, that I know of, which shares these fundamental principles.

Your comparison of the gathering described in the article to religion is parallel to Football fans meeting every Saturday down the pub or at the stadium to discuss and share in their similiarities. Is football a religion?

I am happy that people have decided to take comfort in the fact that more and more people are freeing themselves from the shackles of organised religion and are becoming more vocal about it. As an atheist myself, I can vouch for my fellow non-believers that we would not start creating absolutes or dogma which would need to be abided by, or else. If this started to happen - I can guarantee most atheists would disconnect and disengage from any groups that they were a member of. It just wouldnt happen.

Try as you might to speculate on the future of atheism, it will never be like organised religion.

reply to post by babloyi

Not necessarily true, and somewhat narrow-minded of you to think so. Most believers realise that God created everything, but not necessarily 'out of the blue'.

You're missing the point. I've ACTUALLY had some Christians tell me that the sky is blue because God made it that way.

Now imagine the impact this would have on kids. They'd stop thinking and just accept it as fact. In other word, they stop thinking and learning and using their imagination.

Anyhow, no child in the entire universe would be satisfied if they were thrown the term "Rayleigh scattering" (unless they've learned to emulate from their parents the feeling of being superior by using fancy language to denote simple things). Tell them instead that light bounces off everything, even the air, and explain how this makes the blue more prominent, etc.

RIGHT!!!! That's the point!

Kids are encouraged to question and learn and to understand!

This is not about "feeling superior" and "using fancy language". This is about understanding the world and the universe around you!!!

"Why is the sky blue?"

"Because God make it so"

BOOM! It's over!

This whole "there are other options" stuff doesn't really serve to "expand the kids mind". If you tell the kid that "Yeah, some people believe that, but others believe this, and still others believe this other thing", the kid will come to believe that the answer doesn't matter, and it is all irrelevant, and thus be "brainwashed" (as militant atheists often like to put it) into following exactly what the parent believes, and what the parent wanted them to follow. Just because Spiering is more comfortable not knowing, doesn't mean that is an appropriate attitude to take towards life. It is just Spierings attitude, and (in a very unscientific way) it has no basis in fact.

How is telling the kids that people believing different things brainwashing them?

And no, it doesn't tell the kids that the "answer doesn't matter". It expands their perceptions and understanding and to help them explore the possibilities and to find the best answers they could find.

reply to post by Deaf Alien


That's right, Deaf Alien, I completely agree with you, however removed from the OP that it might be.

Especially in America, I find that the answers to questions end with the 'Will of God'. Children need to know what has been observed and essentially proved scientifically, that there are things we dont know, that by thick or thin, we will try to find the answer.

Open children's minds to possibility, they will be the future of this planet and our species.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


OK, so now you have brainwashed your kids to be atheist.

Let them make their own minds up.

reply to post by Unsane


Thank you. My posts might be a little far off from the OP but the OP does mention parents, kids, and organized religion. And I'm replying to few other posters. So I am staying within the topic as much as I can.

Especially in America, I find that the answers to questions end with the 'Will of God'. Children need to know what has been observed and essentially proved scientifically, that there are things we dont know, that by thick or thin, we will try to find the answer.

Right. "I don't know" is much better than "God did this or that".

Even Deism is much better.

Imagine how far we would have gone if there wasn't any organized religion.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Hi Watcher.
Atheist congregation sounds good! At least they're being more true than the garden-variety of congregation that we are used to.
It refressing to hear there are people in numbers who think about what they believe, before jumping in head-first.
In regards to "Atheist congregation", do you think that is how the concept of Satanism was formed?
I mean, I,ve read the La Veys' Bible, but the dissappointing thing about that mass, is it opposses the very story that it should really shun altogether; in an indirect way: paying credence.
What are your thoughts?

Originally posted by Daniem
If you, Watcher-InThe-Shadows, do not believe in unicorns, by your reasoning that is a religion.

Excuse me, I happen to believe that unicorns are REAL.

I believe that 3 (

And so the semantics dance begin. And apparently nonsense on parade.

reply to post by Daniem

If atheism is a religion, then theists would have no reason to criticise atheism being taught in schools as part of religious education.

That makes sense to you? Atheism isn't a religion because theists would have a problem with it if it was taught as a part of a religious education? A great number of theists have a problem with other theists. Yet, you would call them all religions. There is fallacy in this here statement, more than one most likely.

Since you seem to not quite get it yet, let me try to explain:
The difference between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God, is that the first is a belief, the second is a lack of that belief.

Ad hom? I am Jack's complete lack of suprise. But, diving right in, the only difference in those two sentences is the location of the negatory word. Rather like saying, " I see no tree." and "I cannot see a tree.", it means the same thing.

If you, Watcher-InThe-Shadows, do not believe in unicorns, by your reasoning that is a religion.

No, actually, it isn't. Small suggestion, you might want to take the time to pay attention just long enough to notice what my reasoning is, just so you can actually know what it is you're talking about. I did, after all, give at least a small explaination though you apparently missed it. Oh, and lookie here, you added the tired old likening of spiritual ideas to unicorns, how very original. Not to mention there is a possibility of a creature existing on some other planet that we would call a unicorn. Or have you already catalogued and visited all the planets in the universe? If so, where was I when that became possible?

I dont get why people cant understand this. Maybe it is because these people are so caught up in their own religious beliefs that they cannot imagine any person living without religion of some sort.

*chuckles* Or, perhaps your not understanding. Intentionally so I would wager from the amount of baseless outright falsehoods you have pretended as fact about me already. Tis no religion I follow friend, not that I expect a stranger that has already decided to try and tell me so much about what I am to notice that.
Oh, and woe-ways poor misunderstood you.

You should check out the definition of religion.

Allow me to post it for you, seeing as to how despite your beliefs I am not the one needing of it:

re⋅li⋅gion  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn]
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

—Idiom9. get religion, Informal. a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

SOURCE:dictionary.reference.com...

The same thing as religion? They meet and discuss..
The SAME thing as religion???
Religion has:

prayer, churces, scripture, leaders, belief in supernatural, Afterlife, Lifestyle restrictions (dress, diet, marriage), Blasphemy etc..

Actually, incorrect. I refer you above. I know this is were you will pick the number that best suits your arguments and ignore the rest, but ah well, nature of the beast.

reply to post by spellbound


Um, where did you get THAT?

A TRUE Atheist church would have information relating to Organized religion inside.

I would want to walk into a Atheist church and see books or stored media with some information on

all

4,200 religions +

I will say it again 4,200 + religions

and again for good measure 4,200+

4,200+ religions

COME ON! Talk about the ultimate childrens choose your own adventure-Faith edition

"Mommy I want to learn about Quakers today! Cool they had a branch off from them called Shakers sweet!"

"Daddy what is the flying spaghetti monster? Is there a flying Spaghetti O's monster?"

reply to post by Unsane


Geee a human concept immune to human nature *in particular his ability to twist and corrupt concepts into justification*, that is where you place it. Sounds almost supernatural.

Originally posted by Daniem

Originally posted by Darth Lumina
It does make me laugh when atheists claim they aren't an organized religion, but this sounds pretty organized to me.

In case you didnt know:

ATHEISM is not a religion. This may be organized atheism, but it aint organized RELIGON.

It actually is a religion, you can deny it all you want, but it is. You don't need to have a god in order to be called a religion, nor do you need a church. Atheism IS a religion.

reply to post by Darth Lumina


Is Weight-Watchers a religion?
Think about it.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


It can be. I refer you thusly:

religiously (adv)

Synonyms: dutifully, faithfully, consistently, thoroughly, conscientiously, unfailingly, devotedly, loyally, reliably

Antonym: carelessly

SOURCE:encarta.msn.com...



[edit on 22-5-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]