Question: the Speed of Space?

I don't have enough knowledge in this area and can't find any info from google.

I was pondering the possibility of FTL communications and looking at info about various theoretical devices and concepts.

We know that the universe is expanding and that light travels though space.

As I was contemplating that I wondered how fast is space moving and could space travel faster than light?

There are theories, like the Alcubierre drive, dealing with the warping or folding of space that seem indicate that space can be warped in a such a way that one can bypass the speed of light.

Ideas?

space expands at the speed of light. SO no it cannot exceed the speed of light. I believe that it actually regulates the speed of light. as far as ways of bending or warping it to exceed the speed of light no that cannot be done. The only thing it can do is bring two points in space closer together so one could travel directly between them arriving faster than a photon that left the same location at the same time and followed the curve in spacetime.

I still find it funny that people think in light speed.

like that is the only speed in the universe.

guess we'll never get off this planet...

ontopic, nice post, been to the new star trek movie too?

well I guess the speed of space could be a constant, but I am not sure.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by Grey Magic]

This question reminds me of the lyrics to a monty python song...

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

I agree with Grey Magic. I've read that the universe expanded to nearly it's existing state after the big bang in a matter of milliseconds. This concept totally blew my mind when I first heard it... I just hope it doesn't collapse in a matter of milliseconds...


[edited to add video]

[edit on 5.18.2009 by Avarus]

reply to post by constantwonder


Actually no, the proof that contradicts your post is the fact that we can't see to the beginning of the universe. This means light is still catching up to our point in time which means space indeed did and/or is traveling faster than the speed of light.

Actually there are many reports that space moves faster then the speed of light , or it expands faster then the speed of light .

scienceline.org...

curious.astro.cornell.edu...

What do physics literate people think of planks theory regarding this as compared to einsteins theory?

i did say "i believe" that that was the case however i didnt say it was fact and upon looking found this

Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be heard from again.

so. . . . . there

Thanks for the answers.

Now if I can just come up with a plausible hypothesis for "Apparent" FTL communications.

One other thing that occured to me earlier as I was looking over the relationship of spacetime and light dealt with the aspect of time.

As an object reaches higher velocities while travelling through space it slows down travelling through time. From my understanding an object travelling at the speed of light or c wouldn't experience time. So the faster one would go in space, the slower one would go in time.

Since space is moving, has speed, and is expanding I wonder how this works with time? Space and time are very close, but does space experience time?

One other weird idea related to this deals with time. Since space expanded from an initial singularity and has speed, what about time?

I'm would assume spacetime as a whole emerged from the initial singularity. Which makes me wonder if Time is expanding as well? Wouldn't it be expanding in a manner outside of the standard three dimensions? Could Time have a speed that could be measured?






[edit on 18/5/09 by MikeboydUS]

There is already a FTL communication which is 50% better
or 1.5 times the speed of light.

The full treatment is not know to me but results in pi over 2
or 3.1415927 / 2 = 1.5707963 and apparently occurs when
you transmit radio or power the Tesla way and hugs the
sphere of the Earth. That has to be the source of the pi.

Tesla once stated that the shadow of the Moon crossing over
the Earth moves with infinite speed and must again be due
to the sphere of the Earth in regard to the shadow progression.

Perhaps on and off light pulses travel faster than modulated
light. Same to radio or power pulses.


ED: aether drift is still being measured but have no idea the
status of standard science with their empty space filled with
aliens.


[edit on 5/18/2009 by TeslaandLyne]

Well, to me, space is nothing. I believe that the universe is infinite and will not increase nor decrease in size ever, because it does even have a size, that's why it's just empty space. Also, you cannot bend or fold something that does not have a shape or a feeling or a size even. And once again, if something does not have any of those features, it's not going to be moving, so I don't think speed is a factor either.

I believe that the four fundamental forces (gravity, EM, strong & weak nuclear forces) are wrong and that there is only one underlying force for everything - electromagnetism.

If you could take a quanta of energy and immerse it in an EM pulse, then the quanta will piggy-back and travel FTL.

Dark matter is the glue that holds our visible universe together. This dark matter is like a galactic glow lamp, feeding energy into the macroscopic & microscopic Multiverse. There must be an external energy otherwise electrons will just crash into the nucleus.

Some speculate that if you could capture enough dark energy in a tea-cup, it could boil all the oceans dry instantly.

So for FLT, you'd need to use things like entanglement and superposition, in relation to quantum computing. As Moore's Law progresses, the silicon chips our computers are made of, will be impossible to engineer.

If we could harness the duality of atomic spin, then FLT communication may very well be possible if you could turbo-boost the signal with a Tesla coil in a contained plasma field.

The bottom line about the physics, is they don't even know what gravity is and call it the God constant; a constant of proportionality that makes the equations fit.

The advent of quantum computers will be just like the birth of the transistor; it will open up a whole new field of unknowns and technology.

Just my 2c worth and nothing more.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I think the speed of space is the speed of gravity...

This has always perplexed me.

The big bang happened 14 billion years ago according to NASA.
At the speed of light, 14 billion years in two directions creates a guestimated diameter of 28 billion years for the size of the universe.

The real size (according to Wikipedia) of the universe is closer to a minimum of 90 billion years across.

Thereby, something must have happened at faster than the speed of light...
Unless there's another explanation.

There's a good quote, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Via vision, we see light. We would be unable to see anything moving faster than the speed of light.
Simply not seeing something is different to that not being ther.e

As far as I can gather, Space can (and has been) expand faster than light. But it cannot (maybe?) move faster than light. We will not be able to know if space can move faster than light (or at all) in the real sense because we need to observe space against something else which is impossible to date.

Now on FTL communication or travel. I believe that both are possible. I have done (most of) the research and will post my ideas and theory on ATS someday. The theory will solve some unanswered questions about relativity, and theoretically allow FTL travel. I am a master at procrastinating so don't look for it now. And those with questions about the theory please hold on until I actually post the theory.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I just think that what expands is the light not space, allmost all we see is old image. I think time travel as alot to do with light speed to see the image of somthing that is not here, you would have to catch up and travel much faster than light speed to see yourself in the past but then you would only see a image. I think that vibration would be a way to travel but cant explain it. sorry for my poor inglish, take care

reply to post by Zephias


I like when people kile you just give there real opinion and not just repeat somthing others think or believe you have a simple and inteligent answer tin my opinion. Oh i just gave you a star but dont know what that mean hahaha im sure its not important.

reply to post by ahnggk


Ah see there? Gravity and space seem very similar, but gravity manifests only in the presence of mass. Gravity is space pinched due to the curvature of space in the presence of mass.

For example, a satellite in orbit sees no curvature because the centrifugal force balances out the gravitational pull. Therefore it is known to be in free fall. Some things are free, and falling is one, courtesy of gravity.

Now about the speed of space, I agree wholeheartedly that it can move FTL with relation to an outside observer since the constraints which exist for the behavior of mass and energy within space do not apply to space itself. Some call it frame dragging, I prefer to use the Aetheric model of acceleration. Such phenomena occur in the presence of accelerated and rotating masses.

Like water on the pond, the ripples move independent of the water, but the medium can move also, giving rise to a whole new set of waveforms of varying speeds.

Hope I havn't confused you even further, I know it can be a dog to catch onto.

edit to add: The part where I state space is accelerated in the presence of a rotating mass is misleading. If our satellite is in orbit around a sizable mass, then that mass collapses, the rotation will accelerate. Our satellite will trace a spiral instead of an arc during this process, which is to say that it exists in an accelerated space. Acceleration is the key to moving space as it is a higher derivative of motion which requires a modification of the medium.



[edit on 5/19/2009 by Matyas]

people must remember that this is all theory and no one should take what anyone says as truth but only as guess / theory.