Gallup first: more Americans now "pro-life" than "pro-choice"

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Annee
To make statements religion is not the main force behind anti-abortion - - is ludicrous in my opinion.

My reasons are two fold.

#1 - Science.

I've seen the ultrasound videos of preborn babies sucking their thumbs, opening and closing their eyes, and playing with the cords. I've seen the scientific data that says preborn children feel pain during pre-birth surgeries .. like to fix spinabiffida .... I've heard records of a preborn babys heart beat. That's a human heart beat.

#2 - Yes .. #2 is for karmic/religious reasons.

But they are based upon reason #1. Reason #1 - science - tells me that the preborn person is really a person with his or her own heartbeat and his or her own levels of pain. Knowing those things are why my reason #2 kicks in.

What part of majority do you not understand?

Yes - there are non-religious people who are against abortion - for their own reasons. I've stated that more then once.

Originally posted by fooffstarr

Originally posted by truthquest
reply to post by fooffstarr

 

Its easily possible to be pro-life and non-religious. You simply need to have a position that all living humans deserve all rights regardless of their stage of development.

I agree.

But is it possible to be pro-choice and religious?

As I said in my OP, I have no personal views on this matter at the moment. I haven't had the need or information to form an opinion.

In general terms I am pro life, as far as capital punishment etc goes. But that is not because of any religious beliefs (or in my case lack there of). I just don't like to see harm come to other people. But as was pointed out to me in a torture thread the other day, you don't know what you believe until you are really put on the spot and it effects you.

But the abortion issue specifically has not entered my mind a lot.

I'm enjoying reading all the posts and absorbing some of the views and facts coming out.

I believe it is very much possible to be pro-choice and religious because the fact of the matter is that the Christian Bible says practically nothing about abortion. I'm not sure about other religions but I'm sure at least a few of them don't say much either. I remember hearing (I don't remember the source) at one point the Catholic church had a somewhat pro-choice viewpoint in that in many cases they actually supported abortion. Some time I'll research that further.

I strongly believe that the idea of a deep pro-choice/pro-life division is mostly made up fiction to pretend there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans. When you actually get down to it a lot of people who label them self pro-choice say abortion should be illegal in a lot of cases, and a lot of people who label them self "pro-life" actually believe abortion should be legal in a wide number of circumstances. There are very few people who are at the extreme ends.

Personally I almost hate talking about abortion because there are so many people who have some strong as imaginable self-righteous opinion that they have not even put any thought into. They start with their position they know must be right, then cook up some mottos, slogans, and one-liners that support their position. They don't actually consider the underlying issues based on careful reasoning and research. Yet I still feel compelled to put in my opinion because I have given it a lot of thought. My strategy at least on the internet is just to post & answer once every couple of days so I don't get too "into it" with anybody.

Originally posted by Annee
What part of majority do you not understand?

SNOTTY!

This is a discussion board. I'm NICELY discussing my own reasons for being anti-abortion. You seriously need to chill out.

Originally posted by FredT
Im curious about how many of the "Pro Lifers" support the death penalty?

I'm curious how many "Pro-Choicers" support giving the soon-to-be-aborted fetus a choice of whether or not he/she would "choose" to be aborted or not, or if the someone else will make the decision, taking away it's choice. Hypocrites.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Annee
What part of majority do you not understand?

SNOTTY!

This is a discussion board. I'm NICELY discussing my own reasons for being anti-abortion. You seriously need to chill out.

Is religion or not - - the #1 reason against abortion?

Of course everyone has their own reasons - - and many are not religious based. But - I believe what started all of this - is you claiming using religion as the main reason against abortion was not valid.

------------------

I happen to believe "energy consciousness" is our natural state - - and physical experience is a choice. Nothing really exists but energy - - everything else is thought creation. Therefore - the reason someone does something is far more important - then the actual event. Reasoning - thought - has more effect on Karma of the eternal "soul" (energy consciousness) then anything else.

Science in this world - is based only on what is known TODAY - in this dimension.

-------------------

But this thread is not about WHY or WHAT one believes. It is about a possible shift in "trend".

As I previously stated. During times of fear - people have a tendency to get religious. And again - religion is the #1 supporter of none abortion.

Im still trying to make a decision on this myself. Im leaning way more to pro-life. I think incest and rape victims should definetly be able to choose. Other than that...dont kill your god d*mn child. When you have sex you always take the risk of getting pregnant. Therefor, take on the responsabilty. I had a child young and even if your scared or dont want the responsability, its worth it in the end. I enjoy every single day with my child. I wouldnt change it for the world.

Originally posted by Jess_Undefined
Im still trying to make a decision on this myself. Im leaning way more to pro-life. I think incest and rape victims should definetly be able to choose. Other than that...dont kill your god d*mn child. When you have sex you always take the risk of getting pregnant.

This is essentially how I feel about the subject, but your view is not "pro-life", it is "pro-choice". Pro-life advocates do not want any abortion under any circumstance, they want it outright illegal.

By accepting that there are extenuating circumstances that could lead to an abortion being necessary, you are essentially pro-choice.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would advocate abortion as a form of casual birth control. That would be pretty sick and heartless.


EDIT to fix quote.

[edit on 20-5-2009 by drwizardphd]

reply to post by drwizardphd


Thank you for clearing that up with me because I did not know that! =]

And I agree definetly. Its very sick and you must be a pretty heartless human being to be able to do such a thing like its a trip to the mall.

Originally posted by Jess_Undefined
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

Thank you for clearing that up with me because I did not know that! =]

And I agree definetly. Its very sick and you must be a pretty heartless human being to be able to do such a thing like its a trip to the mall.

Dont let the semantics fool you Drwizard is obfuscating the two meanings. The says Pro choice doresn't mean pro abortion but then tells you what Pro Life is and that we don't allow for mitigating circumstances. What you need to do is look at what they DO not what they say they are about.

RARELY if ever will you see any pro choice people trying to stop the killing of children he says is such a dispicable act

To be prochoice about abortion is to be pro-abortion. Suppose drug dealing were legalized and you heard this argument[ex:

"Im personally not in favor of someone dealing drugs at schools, but thats a matter to decide between the drug dealer and his attorney. We dont want to go back to the days when drug dealing was illegal, and people died in back alleys from bad coc aine. I personally wouldnt buy drugs, so Im not pro-drugs. Im just pro-choice about drug dealing."

Basically, being personally against abortion but favoring anothers right to abortion is self-contradictory and morally baffling. Its exactly like saying, "Were personally against child abuse, but we defend our neighbors right to abuse his child if that is his choice."

Someone who is prochoice about rape might argue that its not the same as being pro-rape. Whats the difference, since being prochoice about rape allows and promotes the legitimacy of rape? Those who were prochoice about slavery believed their moral position was sound since they personally didnt own slaves. Similarly, most people in Germany did not favor the killing of Jews, but did nothing to stop the killing.

Some people have an illusion that being personally opposed to abortion while believing others should be free to choose it is some kind of compromise between pro-abortion and prolife positions. It isnt. Pro-choice people vote the same as pro-abortion people. Both oppose legal protection for the unborn, and both are willing for children to die even if they do not directly participate in the killings.

The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.

Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;

1% because of fetal abnormalities;

3% due to the mother's health problems.


Change in Pro-Life Vs. Pro-Abortion over the last 5 years
"With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"



what about bringing children into a world when they’re not wanted.

There’s a major difference between and unwanted pregnancy and an unwanted child. Every child is wanted by someone. There are currently 200,000 couples in the US desperately seeking to adopt, yet less than 25,000 babies available each year. Demand is so great, that couples are forced to adopt in China and Russia, often spending more than $20,000 to do so.

Having more unwanted children results in greater child abuse.

In the first 10 years after abortion was legalize, child abuse increased by over 500%. Is it any wonder? Isn’t it easy to conclude that "if it’s OK to abuse our unwanted children by killing them, then why not our "born" children?" Studies also have shown that child abuse is more frequent among mothers who have previously had an abortion.

Further, most abused children were wanted by their parents. A study conducted by professor Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies. In society, 64% of pregnancies are planned – concluding that among abused children, a significantly higher percentage were wanted children compared to the percentage of wanted children in society at large.

If abortion were made illegal, there would still be many abortions.

There are laws against rape, burglary, armed robbery and illegal drug dealing, yet every one of these crimes continues to happen in our society. Does the fact that these crimes still happen inspire us to make them legal? Clearly not, as laws should exist to discourage bad things from happening. Laws concerning abortion have significantly influenced whether women choose to have abortions. In one survey, 72 percent said they would definitely not have sought an abortion if having one were illegal.

If abortion is made illegal, thousands of women will die from back alley and clothes hanger abortions.

This is a favorite myth put forth by pro-abortionists. Prior to legalization, 90 percent of abortions were done by physicians in their offices, not in back alleys. Further, women still suffer and die from "legal" abortions in America


What about a woman who is pregnant due to rape or incest?

Less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape or incest. Furthermore, since conception doesn’t occur immediately after intercourse, pregnancy can be prevented in nearly all rape cases by medical treatments including the morning after pill (MAP).

Nearly all the women interviewed in a recent survey said they regretted aborting the babies conceived via rape or incest. Of those giving an opinion, more than 90 percent said they would discourage other victims of sexual violence from having an abortion (see report)

Finally, if you found out today that your biological father had raped your mother, would you feel you no longer had a right to live?
www.abortiontv.com...

[edit on 20-5-2009 by Con Science]

Originally posted by Con Science


Dont let the semantics fool you Drwizard is obfuscating the two meanings. The says Pro choice doresn't mean pro abortion but then tells you what Pro Life is and that we don't allow for mitigating circumstances. What you need to do is look at what they DO not what they say they are about.

I'm not obfuscating anything.

Answer me honestly, as someone with a pro-life perspective.

1. Do you feel that in a situation where the mother is told she will die if she goes through with the pregnancy, that an abortion is a legitimate procedure to save the mothers life?

2. Do you feel that in a situation where the baby will assuredly not survive the birth process, such as an anencephalic fetus, that an abortion would be a legitimate way to terminate the pregnancy?

3. Do you believe that in situations where the mother is raped, and becomes pregnant, that an abortion would be a legitimate way to terminate the pregnancy?

4. Do you believe that in situations where contraceptives were used, but failed, that an early-term abortion of the embryo, before it develops into a fetus, is a legitimate way to terminate the pregnancy?


If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, you are in fact pro-choice. Unlike the (likely fabricated) data from your very biased source, most women only seek abortion as a last resort. Abortion is simply not a practical method of birth control, when you look at its cost compared to other contraceptives. When you consider the moral implications of having an abortion, the costs become even greater.

Us "pro-abortion" people, as you like to put it, recognize that there is a legitimate reason to keep abortion as an available medical procedure for women who need it, such as in the above circumstances. We're not "baby killers".

And yes, the entire basis of the pro-life argument is the illegality of abortion and the dissolution of abortion clinics, which would make abortion unavailable to mothers who would potentially have to resort to it for various reasons.

Originally posted by drwizardphd
I'm not obfuscating anything

.

Answer me honestly, as someone with a pro-life perspective.

Do you feel that in a situation where the mother is told she will die if she goes through with the pregnancy, that an abortion is a legitimate procedure to save the mothers life?

If she was told she would die if she got an abortion would she get an abortion?

How bout if the child dies if she gets an abortion?

Do you feel that in a situation where the baby will assuredly not survive the birth process, such as an anencephalic fetus, that an abortion would be a legitimate way to terminate the pregnancy?

Is this the reason your scenario is getting an abortion?There are children that survive abortions.

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, you are in fact pro-choice.

No they are not choices to those who value life but "options" as in last resort to save a life in a situation where you have two equally distastefull alternatives, either you die or the baby dies or both. There is absolutley NOTHING attractive about having to kill my own son or daughter unless it was the only "Option" so why would YOU want to choose to kill yours? Options are given when under duress or mitigating circumstances where it is justifiable to save a life but it is ALWAYS about life

Options=pro-life

choices=pro death

3. Do you believe that in situations where the mother is raped, and becomes pregnant, that an abortion would be a legitimate way to terminate the pregnancy?

If you found out your mother had been raped when she had you, that you no longer have the right to live?

Do you believe that in situations where contraceptives were used, but failed, that an early-term abortion of the embryo, before it develops into a fetus, is a legitimate way to terminate the pregnancy?

Do you believe an innocent man on death row about to get a lethal injection is a legitimate way to terminate his life

Unlike the (likely fabricated) data from your very biased source,

Biased? Hence the name "Pro Life"
Planned Parent Hood google it

Abortion is simply not a practical method of birth control, when you look at its cost compared to other contraceptives. When you consider the moral implications of having an abortion, the costs become even greater.

Not a "Pratical method" do you hear yourself? Dude, abortion is NOT birth control and for any reason other than to save the mother or in cases of sexual assualt as soon as possible. It is simply too late after that to kill your own children

Us "pro-abortion" people, as you like to put it, recognize that there is a legitimate reason to keep abortion as an available medical procedure for women who need it, such as in the above circumstances. We're not "baby killers".

You have just agreed then that the ONLY "legitimate" reason for anyone to get an abortion is for the above stated scenarios where the life of the mother or in cases of sexual assault are permitted. An unwanted pregnancy is not the same as a unwanted baby so is it safe to assume you would have any other abortion prohibited by law save for the examples you gave above?

And yes, the entire basis of the pro-life argument is the illegality of abortion and the dissolution of abortion clinics, which would make abortion unavailable to mothers who would potentially have to resort to it for various reasons

No it isn't the entire basis but what wouold you know, you have never had one of your children killed by its mother have you ?

was it HER only option? Or did she CHOOSE to do it for vanity or financial reasons? Abortion is not like flushing a gold fish down a toilet wizz so quit talking out both sides of your mouth and see it for what it is. over 45 millionn babies DEAD and YOU are telling me the majorority were last resort life or death rape and incest cases? GET THE FACTS !

ABORTION-CONTRACEPTION CONNECTION - ABORTION INDUSTRY COMMENTS



Pro-abortion Alan Guttmacher Institute has repeatedly reported on major surveys that show 56%-58% of all women having abortions were using contraception the month they became pregnant.


Alan Guttmacher [former President of Planned Parenthood] stated, "...when abortion is easily obtainable, contraception is neither actively nor diligently used...there would be no reward for the woman who practices contraception...Abortion on demand relieves the husband of all responsibility; he simply becomes a coital animal." [Rutgers Law Review 22, 1968]



Alan Guttmacher Institute researcher Stanley K. Henshaw: “Contraceptive users appear to have been more motivated to prevent births than were nonusers.”



Alan Guttmacher Institute researcher Stan E. Weed: “[F]or every 1000 teens between 15-19 years of age enrolled in family planning clinics, we can expect between 50 to 120 more pregnancies.”



Infamous “sexologist” Alfred Kinsey, 1955: “At the risk of being repetitious, I would remind the group that we have found the highest frequency of induced abortions in the groups which, in general, most frequently uses contraception.”



Sociologist Lionel Tiger, 1999: “With effective contraception controlled by women, there are still more abortions than ever…[C]ontraception causes abortion.”

National Survey of Family Growth- Contraceptive failure rates show 7% for the pill, 16% for the condom, 22% for the diaphragm, and 30% for spermicide. Figures are even higher for unmarried people.


British Abortionist Judith Bury, Brook Advisory Centres, 1981: “...women...have come to request [abortions] when contraception fails. There is overwhelming evidence that, contrary to what you might expect, the provision [availability] of contraception leads to an increase in the abortion rate.” ["Sex Education for Bureaucrats," The Scotsman, 29June1981]

Planned Parenthood's Frederick S. Jaffe, in Abortion Politics, admitted that "...even if everyone were to practice contraception, and use the most effective medically prescribed methods, there would still be a very large number of unwanted pregnancies."

"...even if women use 95 percent-effective contraception, seven out of 10 will eventually face an unwanted pregnancy," reported "The Successful Animal", Science 86.



Abortionist and international contraception promoter Malcolm Potts [former director of Planned Parenthood of England] 1976 (even as early as 1973) quoted in Sex and Social Engineering by Valerie Riches.- “As people turn to contraception, there will be a rise, not a fall, in the abortion rate...”.

In Abortion, he noted, "...those who use contraception are more likely than those who do not to resort to induced abortion..."

At another time he said, "No society has controlled its fertility...without recourse to a significant number of abortions." [Malcolm Potts, "Fertility Rights," The Guardian, 25April1979]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ www.physiciansforlife.org...

Originally posted by Con Science

Options=pro-life

choices=pro death

Options and choices are the same thing.

You are pro-choice.

I'm not going to argue with someone who can't see that simple fact, so I am done with this. Good day, enjoy being pro-choice.

Originally posted by drwizardphd


Options and choices are the same thing.

You are pro-choice.

I'm not going to argue with someone who can't see that simple fact, so I am done with this. Good day, enjoy being pro-choice.

You are incorrect, guy "Choose" is a verb and "option" is a noun.

You would have to make a difference between choice and option.

Choice is a word associated with a personal preference. You would have the choice of different types of food in a restaurant. To choose something It is the action of making the decision to pick between options.

Option is more an official word for the thing you are deciding on. You would have the option to pay for something in cash or over a period of time. If I were to tell you there are some elective courses you can take for basic english and grammar, you might ask, what are my choices, which would be in incorrect and bad grammar because choices are things you have decided (past tense) on already and you can only make a choice, when and only when you know your options.

So the proper question to ask is then, "what are my options" and then when given those options, you can choose one.

Since you are so good at telling people what they are when they are NOT I thought I would enlighten you, on the sematics and grammar you need to be made aware of or else you will be telling the infants they are pro no choice and that would make them worse then us religious folks to many in this thread. The thing is, they are NOT given that option and why they can't choose life. So that is why I am "Pro Life" and you are Pro no choice. Because when it comes to the victims you are complicit in supporting the deaths of, you are not really giving anyone a choice at all. I mean really the one who really need some options and are in a really tough bind and could use some, is the baby.

These are your options.

Life and Death.

You chose to have the option of death because you are pro-death pro abortion just like every other pro-choice person I have met and since I painted you in a corner using your own strawman argument asking you to take responsibility for your rhetoric making a committment supporting laws prohibiting the cruel senseless butchery shedding innocent blood in the most bloody genocide in history.

You chose to forfeit the argument.

pity you can't back up your bravado with deeds comensurate with what you say you are about.

You talk the talk but you can't walk the walk. The bottom line is, if there were a contest for both of us as supreme court judges.

You would not make that law whereas I would. So who REALLY is pro-choice and what does it REALLY mean?

Death, but calling it that doesn't market it well now does it. So rather than sell the ugly truth, the murder mills have couched this issue manipulating woman into thinking it is an equal rights issue and called it pro-choice.


Ironic isnt it, you based your choice upon the options given and when the options are life and death,, that is what we call "NOT an option" at all, when it is something we have to choose for ourselves. So it is really no choice at all but I see how easy it is for you to support those who are too confused by the language of legion the author of lies the semantics of satanic sophistry.

Pro- Choice is all about getting s baby killed because in the end,, 99% of the time, that is just what they end up doing so don't BS me dude.

We both know what it is REALLY about. You know it and I know it and,

YOU aint foolin me


one bit








[edit on 22-5-2009 by Con Science]

I am delighted with this, a sign of a nation which is turning its back on the 1960s generation.

JUst as a thought, could this change be linked to immigration trends- ie, immigrants tend to come from nations (whether Asia, Latin America) where religion is more embedded in family life?

Originally posted by blueorder
I am delighted with this, a sign of a nation which is turning its back on the 1960s generation.

JUst as a thought, could this change be linked to immigration trends- ie, immigrants tend to come from nations (whether Asia, Latin America) where religion is more embedded in family life?

What are you saying? that only immigrants value life? or is this some immature juvenile attempt to disparage religion with some cute little talking point while insulting immigrants.?

Originally posted by Con Science
What are you saying? that only immigrants value life? or is this some immature juvenile attempt to disparage religion with some cute little talking point while insulting immigrants.?

My post was made as a sincere one, and the tone of your response is unwarranted nor does it make any sense.

I support this change in public opinion against abortion, and Im suggesting that those of a religious persuasion would be more likely to feel like this, so one reason could be the immigration situation over the last 15 years- if anything you could interpret that as pro religion and immigration

If you are looking a fight, take it elswhere

the only thing i have to say on this issue is that polls will change just like you change your underwear. I think that the only thing that will remain constant is the freedom we have been given (in this regard) with choice. There are plenty of reasons why an abortion is much better than the alternative, and the same is to be said of adoption and foster care. I will not debate either, The fact remains that there are uses to both sides ...
Now please please please forgive me but the population of earth is at its highest ever and we have seen that the current growth is beyond manageability and in the same regard some adoptive families and more than accounted for foster families are absolutely ABUSIVE and i wish it was a mental abuse. Some horror stories ive encountered include molestation, rape , and forced prostitution.
On the other hand I am absolutely sure that some couples would more than be blessed by a child. However these couples are few and far between and i am sad to say that they are few and far between ... I guess in my opinion, I wish that drug standards forced on working americans would be placed on prospective families ( seeing as almost 90pct of abuse on a minor adopted or not) happens with parents who are infact "hardcore" drug users

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
the only thing i have to say on this issue is that polls will change just like you change your underwear. I think that the only thing that will remain constant is the freedom we have been given (in this regard) with choice. There are plenty of reasons why an abortion is much better than the alternative, and the same is to be said of adoption and foster care. I will not debate either, The fact remains that there are uses to both sides ...
Now please please please forgive me but the population of earth is at its highest ever and we have seen that the current growth is beyond manageability and in the same regard some adoptive families and more than accounted for foster families are absolutely ABUSIVE and i wish it was a mental abuse. Some horror stories ive encountered include molestation, rape , and forced prostitution.
On the other hand I am absolutely sure that some couples would more than be blessed by a child. However these couples are few and far between and i am sad to say that they are few and far between ... I guess in my opinion, I wish that drug standards forced on working americans would be placed on prospective families ( seeing as almost 90pct of abuse on a minor adopted or not) happens with parents who are infact "hardcore" drug users

there are many "sub" issues to that- there are several studies which show the MASSIVELY increased incidences of abuse from families where the father is absent- the breakdown of family life (and drug use) lies at the heart of many of these issues (abortion/foster abuse etc)

Now there is no perfection, don't get me wrong, bad things can happen in "traditional" family structures, but society wide, the evidence is clear

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by Con Science
What are you saying? that only immigrants value life? or is this some immature juvenile attempt to disparage religion with some cute little talking point while insulting immigrants.?

My post was made as a sincere one, and the tone of your response is unwarranted

nor does it make any sense.

I support this change in public opinion against abortion, and Im suggesting that those of a religious persuasion would be more likely to feel like this, so one reason could be the immigration situation over the last 15 years- if anything you could interpret that as pro religion and immigration

If you are looking a fight, take it elswhere

Well I guess that all depends on whether you were a parent during the sixties or one of the sexual revolution. My apologies as I couldn't tell and is why asked as a QUESTION, so as not to be presumptuous.

using religion and immigration in a thread like this is another reason I had doubts because immigration or hispanics have had a sharp spike in abortion stats recently.

Again my sincere apologies

Originally posted by Con Science
Well I guess that all depends on whether you were a parent during the sixties or one of the sexual revolution. My apologies as I couldn't tell and is why asked as a QUESTION, so as not to be presumptuous.

using religion and immigration in a thread like this is another reason I had doubts because immigration or hispanics have had a sharp spike in abortion stats recently.

Again my sincere apologies

no problem