Ivory sculpture in Germany could be world's oldest

Ivory sculpture in Germany could be world's oldest

news.yahoo.com

BERLIN – A 35,000-year-old ivory carving of a busty woman found in a German cave was unveiled Wednesday by archaeologists who believe it is the oldest known sculpture of the human form. The carving found in six fragments in Germany's Hohle Fels cave depicts a woman with a swollen belly, wide-set thighs and large, protruding breasts.

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Pretty cool...The thing is in excellent condition, too, considering that its made of organic matter and is 35,000 years old. Good craftsmanship, as well.

Interesting how all the oldest sculptures they find always seem to be very similar: the heavyset earth-mother-type woman.

They always read religious meanings into these things, and perhaps that's valid, but I can't see how anyone can say for sure. I mean, maybe somebody was just whittling away to pass the time, or maybe its even a form of prehistoric porn. But the very widespread prevalience of this theme in ancient art and sculpture does suggest at the very least some sort of unity across vast swaths of land, which in a primative state does imply a religious ethos, perhaps.

At any rate, amidst all the doom and gloom in the news, its nice to see a story affirming that we can still discover neat stuff about our mysterious and ancient heritage as a species.

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Great find, and I couldn't agree with you more. These Venus figurines are very interesting.

I couldn't imagine this being ancient porn - apparently our ancient ancestors liked them plump. But then again, there could be something to that.

The easiest explanation surely is that they represent a god, or in this case goddess I suppose, perhaps associated with fertility.

Originally posted by Monger
I couldn't imagine this being ancient porn - apparently our ancient ancestors liked them plump. But then again, there could be something to that.

Actually I would find this to be true. Alot of civilizations have liked bigger women. People in Africa today are like that... Think of that movie Phat or something.. Going back the Vikings liked big women also.. that is just off the top of my head.. I could go into more but I am tired.

[edit on 5/15/2009 by ThichHeaded]

Originally posted by ThichHeaded

Originally posted by Monger
I couldn't imagine this being ancient porn - apparently our ancient ancestors liked them plump. But then again, there could be something to that.

Actually I would find this to be true. Alot of civilizations have liked bigger women. People in Africa today are like that... Think of that movie Phat or something.. Going back the Vikings liked big women also.. that is just off the top of my head.. I could go into more but I am tired.

[edit on 5/15/2009 by ThichHeaded]

It's sort of funny to think how our modern image of beauty has changed so much from that of our ancestors.

Call it my modern bias, but I'll take Megan Fox over the Venus figurine ladies :p. I have a sneaking suspicion that any red-blooded caveman would have done the same.

reply to post by silent thunder


Cool! The world was dominated by matriarchal fertility cults back in those days. This sculpture clearly represents fertility and reverence of the female form.

My oh my, didn't the misogynistic, patriarchal church turn that on it's head. Somehow I think we had it right back then!

IRM

Originally posted by Monger
Call it my modern bias, but I'll take Megan Fox over the Venus figurine ladies :p. I have a sneaking suspicion that any red-blooded caveman would have done the same.

In a society where starvation is a constant threat and its possibility a day-to-day reality, perhaps fleshiness is coveted and eroticized.

In a society where obesity is epidemic and most people are more worried about cutting rather than increasing caloric intake, perhaps the slim and lythe becomes the ideal.

I do believe there is plenty of evidence that lots of societies have eroticized fat women over skinny ones...not only ancient art but also more recent art (like the paintings of Titian, Reubins, and other baroque types) points to this. Beyond art, which can be ambiguious as evidence, there is also a good deal of writing from the seventhenth and eighteenth century that backs this up...thinner women only started to be highly favored in the ninteeenth century, I think. Even well into the victorian era women were still using whalebone corsets to make themselves look "plumper," a word that had positive connotations back in those days...





[edit on 5/15/09 by silent thunder]

Yet another pointless thread, how the hell is this possible if the earth is 6000 years old?

Thanks, gg.

Yet another slam dunk from the bible, the ultimate fact book.

Originally posted by silent thunder

Originally posted by Monger
Call it my modern bias, but I'll take Megan Fox over the Venus figurine ladies :p. I have a sneaking suspicion that any red-blooded caveman would have done the same.

In a society where starvation is a constant threat and its possibility a day-to-day reality, perhaps fleshiness is coveted and eroticized.

When survival is an issue then the most attractive women would be those that look as though can not only survive the winter themselves but also provide enough breast milk to support an infant. The male hunter/gatherer or nomad, is seeking a woman capable of successfully reproducing, the urge to reproduce is primary over sexual gratification or 'love' up until man becomes sedentary.

Heavy hips denote an ease of birth, many women died in childbirth right up until the beginning of the twentieth century due to narrow pelvises, we now do routine c-sections, many babies were still- born for the same reason. Wide hips therefore would be coveted. As would full breasts.

The belly is full and round because it is full of life, about to spring forth. The statue is that of a woman in the perfect shape to give birth to vigorous, healthy life. The Goddess of Spring, she became Demetre in Greece or the White or Moon Goddess of Northern European pagan cultures, amongst numerous other names and guises.

This was posted and discussed yesterday:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

lord you people make a lot of assumptions. matriarchal female worship societies, maybe, who the heck knows. the women aren't always all that big in cave paintinggs but who knows. it seems a complex answer that doesn't take into account the practicalities of the task.

anyone who has ever carved or whittled will tell you that a big round curve is the easiest curve to manage with a wide blunt knife, especially when working to the scale this statuette is carved.

the people who carved this were using stone to do so. wide, blunt blades.

men, by nature, spend their free time in idle, insular tasks while women spend their free time in idle social tasks. men will sit whittling absently while women are more likely to sit chatting.

isn't it just possible that the reason that this statue is a heavy set woman is because it was a piece of ivory some ancient man whittled absently one rainy day while sitting beside the fire, and given the practicalities of the tools he had to hand, he was limited in the details he could depict?

and that this same set of circumstances is true for most of the venus statues found?

seems more likely to me that a pan european, asian and african mother worship cult.

reply to post by pieman


May I suggest that you actually read a book or two? Judging by your post, it's evident that you have not!

IRM :shk:

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by pieman

 

May I suggest that you actually read a book or two? Judging by your post, it's evident that you have not!

IRM :shk:

may i suggest you read the T&C especially the bits about insulting people and making pointless posts.

if you have something to say on the points i made, say it, if you just want to make yourself feel big, get a fair ground mirror. i've probably forgotten more books than you've read.

reply to post by pieman


It appears your being overly sensitive and purposefully misconstruing my post. I'm suggesting you read up on fertility cults in ancient history. I can assure you, that is exactly what the sculpture depicts. If you had of read such material, your post would have reflected that. It didn't.

lord you people make a lot of assumptions.

Chillax!

IRM :shk:

[edit on 15/5/09 by InfaRedMan]

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

I'm suggesting you read up on fertility cults in ancient history. I can assure you, that is exactly what the sculpture depicts.

i can assure you that there is very little historical information related to 35000 years ago, history requires a written source. there aren't any that old that have been found, to date.

this sculpture is a common form, many archaeologists assume this is because of some sort of widespread goddess worshiping fertility cult. i think this is a ridiculous piece of speculation that doesn't make any logical sense and doesn't have any evidence besides the fact that similar statuettes have been found in widespread locations.

it can be much more easily and simply explained by anybody who has ever done some carving or whittling, as i have outlined.

If you had of read such material, your post would have reflected that. It didn't.

my post reflected my opinion, not some authors opinion. just because i'm aware of something doesn't mean i have to accept it. i don't feel the need to defer to the authority of others, my educated guess is as valid as anyone elses.