Manchester 'launch' for ID cards

reply to post by SugarCube
I wish the Moon would somehow bounce of the Earth and Gordon Brown's Government would somehow get stuck to it

It's been inevitable for years that they would force the ID Card through. Last year they claimed it would be 'helpful' for students to get their loans quicker (trans: no ID Card=no loan).
They claimed it would be 'easier' for school leavers to open bank accounts (trans: no ID card=no bank account=no job or student loan).

They claim it will reduce illegal immigrants. We already have a database of migrants, fingerprints and passports/ documentation. Still illegal immigration exists.

They claim it will help to prevent criminal activity. ID card or not, it's reliant on apprehending the suspect in the first place. If they have been apprehended...how will the ID card help?

They claim it will combat terrorism. How exactly? Recent terrorist acts (7/7 and Glasgow) were committed by British nationals with UK passports.

They use the insidious argument, 'If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.'

The problems with "ID Cards"

Five Reasons against National ID Card

Vote for someone else...

Civil Liberties and Human Rights

This is one of the reasons why I detest the 'democratic' process. Most New Labour MPs have criticised the plan. Even the Tories are against it. Labour have used the Whips to force Party votes in the face of public opinion and their own Party Members. Once we have the ID cards (paid for by us in cash and through taxes), it will not matter who is in power...they will remain for good.

This Sh** Labour Party has taken us into an illegal War. They've seen the cost of living rise to it's highest ever. Tax Freedom Day has gone from 26th May in 1997 to 2nd June last year. Connived with 'extraordinary rendition.' Slowly ruining the Education System.

Western Democracy is a sham. Public opinion is irrelevant.

so I have to pay for a passport just to visit other countries, something that took alot of saving for may I add..

and now i am probably shortly expected to fork out for this..

I think not.

# YOU!

probably safe for a few more years over the north border anyway

Originally posted by nutellajunkie
probably safe for a few more years over the north border anyway

Well... in so far as Scotland and Govan in Glasgow in particular, has to endure the ignominy of Gordon Brown having been born there.

I don't mean it really, he's probably very kind to animals.

This is but one of *many* measures that has been taken, and will be taken, in order to better monitor the citizens of the UK. Lets not beat about the bush here, its not an anti-terrorist or anti-crime measure, its further monitoring and better resource control over the people of the UK.

This new measure does not make much sense on its own, and thats because we dont know, and can only guess at, the true hidden agenda behind its introduction.

At this point I was going to start my /rant but whats the point, the compliant sheeple are the majority and will happily accept whatever is given to them, no matter what the cost.

As for me, I have an opportunity to emigrate this year and leave the sheeple of the UK to fend for themselves. Yes the UK is THAT bad!.

Originally posted by Freelancer
This new measure does not make much sense on its own, and thats because we dont know, and can only guess at, the true hidden agenda behind its introduction

This iterates the points made earlier in the post, that the introduction of an ID Card is a pre-emptive move to escalating such cards for tracking and monitoring purposes.

The card will not remain as a "passive" indicator of identity, to be shown upon request by law enforcement officers - it will infiltrate into every walk of life otherwise it is a pointless exercise.

Unless an infrastructure that makes use of the cards is in place, the cards do not add anything to "security". Once you can track everybody, what they are buying, where they are going, where they are right now, then you have the "security" that this government craves.

Start buying shares in turnstile technology because you'll start to see these cropping up everywhere. Hell, you won't have a pension so you'll need some form of investment!

[edit on 6-5-2009 by SugarCube]

Originally posted by SugarCube
"If you have nothing to hide then what are you afraid of?"

This is the most common riposte in the face of criticism of intrusive policies and actions. However, it denies the basic principle of "presumption of innocence", coming from the Latin legal principle that "the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies".

It has a direct relationship to the assumption of "prohibition" rather than "allowance". For example, assuming that walking on the grass is prohibited unless specifically allowed as opposed to assuming that you can walk on the grass unless explicitly prohibited.

When people talk of occasionally producing an ID card to be checked then this smug statement of asinine belief in the ridiculous notion of "big brother" has some merit. Why would we bother about a simple request from a police officer to show who we are?

However, it misses the whole point that in the hands of our government, such cards will not be used for this simple purpose. Simply using the cards as a form of ID "upon request" is a pointless exercise in the pre-emption of crime. The cards are designed not to be used "after the fact" but as a preventative measure, therefore, once cards are rolled out whole-scale then appropriate measures can be taken to ensure that they can be used track holders.

Want to shop? First you have to scan your ID card at the checkout. Want to go to a nightclub? First you have to scan your card on the way in. Want to drive from one end of the country to the other? First you have to scan yourself in at toll booths. Buying a train ticket? ID Card.

How about this? If you can connect political orientation to the cards then you can stop people visiting specific areas. Think how much better it will be for democracy not to have to put up with civil protests! The ID card as envisioned by Ms. Smith can give you all of this and more!

Hell, why not roll it out to build localised borders? Block off the city of Westminster and scan everybody in and out. Paranoid? Yes, I definitely am paranoid. Without being paranoid I wouldn't know what to expect.

Just because I have nothing to hide, it doesn't mean that I should have to report my movements to the Government at their behest, the "superiority inferiority relationship".

ID cards are a waste of time UNLESS a government implements the tracking capabilities that go with them. I only fear the former as a prelude to the latter.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by SugarCube]

Thank you SC this is a very astute and erudite contribution to the debate.

For me personally the National ID scheme is my line in the sand. CCTV has crept up on us. We're still that dumb toad that rather than jump to safety slowly boils to death in a pan on the hob. Little by little by little until it's too late.

If this card ever comes I will refuse it. Simple as that. If I get fined I won't pay. If I get put away so be it. If enough of us take that attitude the ID card would be dead in it's tracks.

reply to post by SugarCube


"I mean, come on... at least show a bit of nouse and sell it as a simplified form of official documentation - look folks, no need to carry a driver's license, passport, social security ID AND an ID card, we can provide it all in one. Simple to use and you get bonus points for use at your local health spa or DIY shop! Hooray! Huzzah! God bless the introduction of the ID card!"


I had been wondering whether my Nectar and Clubcard points, and my B&Q 10% Off card were going to be transferable.

They'll eventually sweeten the deal with so many 'benefits' and 'features' that the sleeping masses will want one. If the UK Govt tomorrow offered everyone a free iphone with their ID SIM card I wonder how many takers there would be?

A Government that tries to steam roll through an unpopular law on the populace can be beaten. Remember the Poll Tax. If enough people refuse to fall into this ID scheme then it will be squashed as well. Simply refuse to comply.

does anyone else think this is completely ludicrous? wont they simply get copied and then your ID has been stolen in a more efficient method? perhaps we should all just get microchipped like our pets?

Just thought that I would add some comments from the BBC "Comments" page:

news.bbc.co.uk...

It is interesting that practically all of the "pro" arguments use the claim, "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"

Remember Brazil?

Sam Lowry is a low-level government employee ... One day he is assigned the task of trying to rectify an error created by a government mishap, causing the incarceration of Mr Archebald Buttle instead of the suspected terrorist, Archebald "Harry" Tuttle. When Sam visits Buttle's widow, he discovers Jill Layton ... the upstairs neighbor of the Buttles. Jill is trying to help Mrs Buttle find out what happened to her husband, but has gotten sick of dealing with the bureaucracy. Unbeknownst to her, she is now considered a terrorist friend of Tuttle for trying to report the mistake of Buttle's arrest in Tuttle's place to bureaucrats that would not admit such a mistake

It is a black-comedy, but, we seem to be living in a black-comedy right now...

I was going to post something along the lines of who in their right mind would be so enthralled by the idea of being compelled to carry an ID card that they would actually pay their own money for one.

Sadly I imagine they'll find plenty.

I can't wait until Labour are gone and we can look forward to experiencing some freedom again.

For the "nothing to hide nothing to fear" crowd please review this thread i posted a while back

Nothing To Hide, Nothing To Fear? CCTV In Your Home Then

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


That was a good thread ImaginaryReality1984! In point of fact, I do not have an issue with an ID Card per se, I have had ID cards at ALL of the offices I have worked in, I have a driver's licence, I have a passport. The difference between these and the ID Card the government is proposing is the back-end technology that will be developed to track the cards.

Most "ID" is functionally based, providing certification or qualification to perform a specific task, driving or travelling abroad for instance. However, the documents are clearly segregated.

These documents may be called as "positive endorsements". Then there are other documents that may be described as "negative endorsements" depending on the context. For instance, a visa may be term "negative" since it only conveys limited rights as a visitor to a country as opposed to the "default" rights of a citizen.

We should not have to have certification for default rights!

The issue of "ID abuse" is the key factor here, especially by governments. Once you have a significant proportion of the population "ID Carded-Up" you can start to introduce controls and checkpoints that essentially support an apartheid policy, using technology as the discriminator.

This is the problem with ID cards, not the cards themselves. The government wants to introduce "car" tracking whole-scale. It is a simple step to introduce "person" tracking using ID cards. The cards will not be passive, they will be the entry key to the society of the future. No card means no entry - in your own country.

Linking cards to credit card use would be a logical anti-fraud technique. Using cards to gain entry into public buildings, then rolling out to pubs and bars to prevent underage drinking, public transport could follow, ultimately using toll booths on major roadways, not to mention stop checks for ID scanning. All this builds a fantastic picture of who is where and what are they doing.

If such information is not "used" then it is pointless. Unfortunately, when it IS used, it will be for control. Fear the ID Card as a prelude to the bigger picture, don't get hung up on the card itself.

reply to post by SugarCube


I could go on about how it abuses our civil rights, privacy and all that. I could go on about the abuses that could stem from being forced to have one of these cards. I could go on about the social stigma of not having one that the government will make sure to tie to it. However i'm going to put on my little tin foil hat and predict a bit of future.

Imagine everyone gets these cards, years pass and the propoganda machine makes everyone think the cards are solving the problems we have. Then they take the next logical step, instead of having credit cards they suggest your finances are tied to your ID card, afterall who likes having 10 cards in your wallet! Also think of how secure it would be (they'll claim).

Peoiple would no doubt use these more and more instead of cash as they're always carrying it. The final step is to abolishe paper money. Once that is done you are at their mercy. You annoy the government, well hey maybe they'll just delete you from the system so your card won't work anymore. People might think that's insane, that people would never let it happen but most people just want a quiet life. After the first few have their lives destroyed the rest of the people will quiet down and let it happen.

People will no longer have any privacy, you buy a copy of the Koran and they're on you instantly, you buy a book that talks badly of the government, they're on to you. You annoy the government in any way or cause them trouble and you're screwed.

Don't let them get a foot in the door of your house of rights with these things, if you do they'll stand their like a bailiff until you open it fully and they take all your freedoms.

My favourite artist Ian Brown, some of his lyrics are genius, try F.E.A.R also.

Ian Brown - kiss ya lips [no id] circa 2005

I aint no number
I don't need no ID round my neck
So Mr Politician
I got born and named like blood runs red
Cause I I aint no number
Don't require no ID round my neck
So Mr number maker
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet

Think think of a number
Think of a number one to ten
If five five is your number
Times that five by two to make a ten
Cause I I aint no number
I don't need no ID round my neck
So Mr number maker
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet

So my little girl keep dancing
Kiss Ya lips and love yourself so right
Click Mr number maker
Wants your fingerprints your ass and eye
To stipulate your identification
Got born and raised like blood runs red
Wants to slip a microchip in my lip
Cause loose lips sink ships
Keep it shake ya hips
Keep it kiss ya lips I aint no number
I don't need no ID run my neck
So my little girl keep dancing
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet
So my little girl keep dancing
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet
So my little girl keep dancing
Keep dancing
ID cards won't stop no hijack jet




Ian Brown was the lead singer in former British band The Stone Roses and following their split in 1996 has gone on to have a successful solo career.

He is considered to be an influential artist with followers such as Oasis, The Verve, Blur, Kasabian, Arctic Monkeys and many more.

I keep getting this mental image of a sparkly new ID card centre, all the staff sitting there eagerly watching the front door, as a lone tumbleweed blows across the floor, to the sound of a ticking clock.

Maybe I am wrong. Will Ms Smith appear soon on TV and tell that there have been literally thousands of people visiting and queuing round the block to get their ID cards?

Forgot to mention he is from Manchester area.

Brown has had several run-ins with the law. In 1998, he was sentenced to 4 months in jail for air rage, after a threatening of a stewardess with plastic cutlery, offering to cut her hands off on a flight. This resulted in a spate of "Free Ian Brown" graffiti in and around Manchester (M13).

Longsight M13 (postcode area in Manchester) was immortalised in song by local singer Brown.

I'm glad it's NuLabour trying to push this scheme through - it'll likely fall flat on its' arse. At least this is ONE thing the useless two-faced Tories are prepared to oppose. What's really worrying is the number of Europeans pitching in on the issue in the media, "ja, ve have ze ID kards ja... is no problem ja? Make life easy XDXD!"

... I really want out of the EU.

reply to post by FMLuder


It won't fall on it's face, if the scheme is rolled out fully then the government will spend billion on top of billion to keep it going. As with many bad systems, once it's in place it's to much hassle to scrap it. As for the europeans, well i don't mind the idea of a simple card with my photo on, but i already have that in my driving license so there just isn't any point. My major problem with ID cards is all the information stored on them, the rhetoric from the government saying that it's a panacea for all our problems when it isn't and the idea they're pushing that only criminals don't want it. The very fact they are pushing it like that makes me worried about their motives as why would they need to make such incorrect statements?



[edit on 7-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]