The oldest symbol on earth?

This is just my speculation.

I suspect that the purpose of the obelisk is the casting of a very accurate shadow. The larger the Obelisk the more accurate the calculation of the calendar based upon it's shadow.

The symbol may have outlived it's original intent as it traveled from culture to culture. But the fine point on top of most obelisks makes the shadow very accurately point like a clock hand.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Cyberbian]

Generally the oldest symbols are fertility symbols, however the oldest surviving symbols are about food - the symbols of the Australian Aboriginals are the oldest on earth - these are from a culture which is anywhere between 40-70,000 years (Egyptians were 5,000 years at the oldest known point).....think about that for a minute.

Anyway most of the symbols refer to what can be found in the area food wise, and what the Totem symbols are - animal spirits etc for the area and sacred places.

The earliest forms of writing from the Sumarians which lived in ancient Mesopotamia between the Euphrates and the Tigris (modern day Iraq) developed symbols for representing things which was later the basis for hieroglyphics and evolved into writing.

Now you know - have a nice day.

reply to post by Cyberbian


This has also crossed my mind as is the perfect example of the obelisk in the Vatican.
But what has also crossed my mind is that when muslim pilgrims "stone the devil" as a part of a ritual they actually stone an obelisk!

So atleast there are two examples of the obelisks symbolic meaning.

Originally posted by Cyberbian
This is just my speculation.

I suspect that the purpose of the obelisk is the casting of a very accurate shadow. The larger the Obelisk the more accurate the calculation of the calendar based upon it's shadow.

The symbol may have outlived it's original intent as it traveled from culture to culture. But the fine point on top of most obelisks makes the shadow very accurately point like a clock hand.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Cyberbian]

Guys the obelisks in Rome, Paris, London are ALL the actual obelisks from Egypt - they are not reproductions or copy they are the real deal - shipped from Egyptian temples.

They were a symbol of authority, holding magical properties to disperse negative energy by piercing the heavens, however mainly they covery the symbol of authority and the right to rule.

That is what they are - i have been to Aswan where they were mined and seen them partially cut from the rocks, i have been to the great temples of Cairo, and all the major temples of Egypt - this is what they are.

I'd think the oldest symbol on earth would be a stick-man type of drawing sketched in the dirt or perhaps on a rock or cave wall. Either that or the vertically extended middle finger.

Originally posted by audas

Originally posted by Cyberbian
This is just my speculation.

I suspect that the purpose of the obelisk is the casting of a very accurate shadow. The larger the Obelisk the more accurate the calculation of the calendar based upon it's shadow.

The symbol may have outlived it's original intent as it traveled from culture to culture. But the fine point on top of most obelisks makes the shadow very accurately point like a clock hand.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Cyberbian]

Guys the obelisks in Rome, Paris, London are ALL the actual obelisks from Egypt - they are not reproductions or copy they are the real deal - shipped from Egyptian temples.

They were a symbol of authority, holding magical properties to disperse negative energy by piercing the heavens, however mainly they covery the symbol of authority and the right to rule.

That is what they are - i have been to Aswan where they were mined and seen them partially cut from the rocks, i have been to the great temples of Cairo, and all the major temples of Egypt - this is what they are.

Well I knew that these obelisks are the actual original ones from Egypt .

And as I referred to masonic symbolism in my first tread concerning the obelisk, it´s my personal believe that the obelisk of today is a symbol of power since it´s represented in every major city in the world. Or it´s easier to say that where there´s an obelisk, there are Masons.

This video is an example of that: www.youtube.com...

But are there yet older obelisks in the world? In that case wich is /could be the oldest and does that have the same symbolism?

If you take the obelisks in Etiopia we are told by the Etiopians that the "gods" helped them build them and the underground temple of Lalibela and since the Egyptians sometimes called the land of Punt in Etiopia "Ta-Netjeru", meaning "Land of the Gods," and considered it their place of origin should it mean that those obelisks are yet older?

And I´m talking about solid rock obelisks and not wooden poles or Totempoles of native Americans.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by m4ng4n]

Well the oldest symbol (symbols being used by humans that is, unless there were intelligent species or aliens here before..?) on earth would be the human body. Many, many, symbols originate on/in the human body, specifically in reguards to the awsome (god-like) creative force that is sex (Oh god! Oh god!); it is afterall, a "religious experience," and the source of many religious (or otherwise, general) symbols. So, I'll leave it to your own knowledge of the human body to figure out where the obelisk symbol came from, but here's a hint: the Freemason's guard it from the profaine, like the Holiest of Holies, with a lamb skin curtain; as well as disguise the lame/impotent god Vulcan under the suggestive nickname "Tubal Cain" (Two-Balls & Cane); a similar image as Doctor John Dee's "007" signature.

Here's something I wrote in an old dead thread about a Masonic connection to the symbol:

I see it as representing the promise of finding the Omnific Word. Osiris (Secret Doctrine) was cut into 14 peices by Set (Ignorance), 13 were brought together again by Isis (Mystery Schools), and the missing 14th limb is the phallus of Osiris (the Omnific Word). Isis fashioned a temporary phallus for Osiris made out of gold. Some obelisks and pyramids had gold (rather gold alloy) capped tips, representing a temporary replacement of the missing "peice," or a replacement for the Lost Word. The eventual goal is to regain knowledge of the Omnific Word, or to cap the pyramid/obelisk (as a pyramid is just a giant obelisk-top) with the true capstone: "Originally it was to have a solid gold capstone that was a scale model of the pyramid itself. It was never placed because the builders rejected it." This idea is represented in everyones favorite masonic-whipping-boy - the dollar bill. The pyramid has 13 levels for the 13 parts of Osiris, and is being capped with the true capstone the builders rejected: the missing 14th piece, the Lost Word, the one-eyed-trouser-trout of Osiris; representing a return to the Golden Age.

Edit: Additional Stuff, I'm feeling nice today. Normally I would continue ignoring this forum, but there might be some here who can be saved...

To clarify: the Lost/Omnific Word, or True Name of God, was spoken in the Holiest of Holies once a year - which is the connection between Solomon's Temple (designed in the shape of a "phallic" projection into a "yoni") and the Pyramid/Obelisk Capstone (representing the Lost Word/member of Osiris), which is (if you haven't guessed it by now, or grown tired of my over-use of parenthesis) the male penis: both the ark and the Mason's wang are hidden from the profaine by a lamb skin apron.

To mark where the sun rises you would need a marker stone on the horizen (Hori-zen/Horus, the sun), and a spot to view it from, preferrably another marker so you can stand at the same place everytime and get accurate readings. If you do that, you will notice that the sun rises on the exact same spot every 33 years. (That number sound significant to anyone? Masons, Jesus' age, etc.) (source)

Two pillars are just as popular as the single pillar. Sometimes as pylons in front of Egyptian temples, or pillars in front of mythical Temples of the Sun (Temple of the Solar Men (under Kefre's pyramid), and Temple of Sol-Om-On (same thing, named for the sun gods, and fictionally moved out of Egypt upon the monotheistic sun worshipers exile/exodus).

Case in point:


Getting back to the human body, the two pillars represent the two sides of the body: left/Moon/Sinister(named for moon god Sin), and right/Sun/Dexter. The left eye is the moon, also Eye of Horus as it is the eye he lost in battle with Set; it was restored by Tehuti/Thoth, the moon god (Hermes/Mercury). This eye can be seen in most "one eye" images, such as on the back of the dollar bill in the capstone of the pyramid. (The one-eyed capstone - linked to the "one-eyed monster" that is Osiris' penis). The middle-pillar, found in the kabbalistic Tree of Life, and the Buddhist "middle path" is the spinal column and the Egyptian djed pillar (djedi priest of the djedi temple = Luke (Luc/Light) Skywalker = Horus who walks across the sky in 12 steps/hours of day). The spinal column has 33 bones, for the 33 years of the Sun/Son and the 33 degres of initiation.

Obelisks/Pillars and Pyramids are the same things. The Great Pyramid is a base for the missing capstone built of the same dimensions, only increased in size, and the Obelisk is simply a more "erect" base for the same capstone. (A theory exists that the Pyramid is built upon a giant square base as well.) People who sit in meditation sit with their legs crossed forming a pyramid of the body (for stability), and make their spine as straight as possible, like an obelisk (to line up the spine & chackras so the kundalini/caduceus/brazen-serpent can rise easier). The "blade" (as described in The Da Vinci Code) is the ancient male symbol. Pillars connected to Pyramids:





(For anyone interested in more of my interpretations of these and other symbols, here's a post of mine you might like.)

[edit on 5/5/2009 by ViolatoR]

Originally posted by punkinworks

I thought it was pretty obvious, obelisks are a giant phallic symbols.

Do you think?

I see sun clocks among many other things when I look at them.

Also they have 4 sides (N, S, W, E) and their tip is usually composed of a pyramid.

These four sides of pyramids yield a center, so each side could very well represent one of the four universal forces and it's center being the balance of all these forces.

There is more to it then meets the eyes for sure, specially since you find one right on the center of St. Peter's square on the Vatican and not that far from it a Sphinx.

Looking at it only as a phallic structure is kind of a dumb down view of things. Ancient people use put a lot more thought and meaning on things that we do today.

But probably the first symbol was either a dot or hand print.

Can you define if you mean symbolic or first art? Not all depictons are 'symbolic' they could have been grafitti or purely craft, or story telling.

reply to post by audas


Just wanted to add my comments - Was in London recently.
I walked the river and there is 'Cleopatra's Needle' with heiroglyphics all over it. Couldn't believe it was put into a container and shipped over.
The container fell off ship in Bay of Biscay and it was collected again, finally making it to britain.
Don't know anything about it other than it was supposed to come from the period of Cheops.

But I doubt that you were referring to this obelisk in London?

Another obelisk that surprised me stands almost opposite the Science museum - it is on the building of the Mormon church/church of latter day saints (exhibition Road, Kensignton). It is huge and golden coloured or plated. Further examination showed me that the mormons have more of these style of buildings but I've no idea of their significance.

reply to post by Nohup


For me the dot in the circle symbolizes the one and the many the point being the one and the circle the many. I don't know where I picked that up: Egypt or sacred geometry maybe? sort of like the micro and the macro. Separate yet combined. I would also say it's the oldest symbol. Peace

THe earliest symbol on earth is a CIRCLE

I agree on the symbol being a circle.

With cultures with the Sun and Moon personified as dieties it wouldn't surprise me that most cultures used a circle to draw them out.

I think this thing is the oldest symbol....tho I guess not on earth....


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wouldn't the point inside the circle represent an obelisk? We have so many of these structures on earth that they are normally overlooked...what about Eiffel Tower, all our antennae, Rockets, I could go on awhile.

As far as Phallic symbols, I don't think that is "dumbing it down" at all. The number one strongest desire we are born with is "Survival of Species" it comes even before "Survival of Self." How many people have risked their lives to get a little action?, passed up food, lost their livelihoods, careers, families, etc. I would expect a masculine and feminine symbol to be apparent even before food, therego circle and point, so this seems to be in agreeance with OP's position.

Also, the most basic man-made structure I can think of would be a stick pushed into the dirt......obelsik. Could be used to mark a trail, hang bait, cast a shadow, build shelter, or countless other things. Surely the most basic and probably first structure of mankind would be apparent and significant throughout all our cultures.

This is a good thread, although it seems to be a work in progress.

Oldest symbol on earth -



A symbol by convention has to convey something, it's a form of language. The handprints on cave walls above tells us that there were a people that dwelt there, it was their land and their home.

All the earliest symbols or signs used parts of the human body - an eye, or head, or hand, to convey a meaning. Animal shapes also were common. Such symbols didn't become abstract until later - a circle, a wavy line, etc.

By the time we were building obelisks we progressed to the point of having a reasonably sophisticated language. Symbols became much more abstract. Is an obelisk really a symbol, any more than a pyramid or mastaba is? It is, it would represent power, domain, a connection to the afterlife. It could have grown from previous use of steles as a marker, grown in proportion to the culture or kingship that erected it as they grew in power. As a symbol it's most poignant in its original context. When Romans and Europeans began stealing them for their own cities, they lost all meaning as a symbol (except perhaps, as a symbol to power).

Edit: Wanted to add, if you're looking at an obelisk as the "oldest" symbol on earth you should look at Menhirs and Dolmens, some are paleolithic in origin.


[edit on 6-5-2009 by Blackmarketeer]

The oldest known spiritual symbol on Earth is probably the solar cross.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3343c82bf9fc.jpg[/atsimg]

the cross symbol

THE SOLAR CROSS
the circular shape of the sun which emphasizes the ever
recurring cyclical nature of the seasons is the origin of the
this neolithic symbol. it combines a cross within a circle
and is the simplest conceivable representation of the union
of opposed polarities. probably the oldest symbol in the
world, it appeared in asian, american, european, and indian art
from the dawn of history.

the same symbol is also called
THE WHEEL CROSS
there are two types of wheel crosses:
the four-armed freestanding cross representing shadows
cast by the rising and setting sun at the two solstices,
and the six-armed cross created by addition of the equinoctial
sunrise and sunset shadows.
the one with four spokes, which wheels in time lost their rim,
became ‘real’ crosses.

From this symbol evolved all the known crosses we have today, including the swastika, the ankh, the tau.

www.designboom.com...
www.world-enlightenment.com...

Here is the earliest I know about.

Earliest Human Symbol

I have lots of books on the subjects as I use symbols in my work. Cave paintings, peytroglyph and such all go back, but this one is the earliest as far as I know.

I found a symbol in my research that was very interesting. It is known as a Chrismon.

The Chrismon is the monogram of the Christ, but it pre dates Jesus. I used it on this illustration that ended up on a book cover for Jane Roberts and in Omni Magazine a couple decades ago.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/c8c3d03eeab8d9a0.jpg[/atsimg]

The Chrismon is an 8-sided star and is 1 continuous line. Very cool symbol. I cant go into the details much for it is ancient and was used again and called something else, but originally it was the symbol of Christ Consciousness, or some similar spiritual state.

Symbology is a great subject. The more ancient, the more interesting.

Thanks for the post.

ZG

reply to post by ZeroGhost


Nice find. It's interesting to see symbols like those in your link made by an early human species. If early humans we're flirting with the use of symbols then a language couldn't have been far behind.

There are a number of books about primates and their ability to master a symbol-based language. Some of the more famous primates involved in these studies are Koko, Nim Chimpsky, and Washoe. One chimp even attempted to teach other chimps the sign language it had been taught by it's trainer. Even though these primates could use symbols they don't appear to have made the evolutionary leap to creating symbols.

I live in Scandinavia and long before Christianity got foothold in this peninsula we celebrated midwintersoltice and midsummersolstice.

To make it short chrismas took over our traditional "jul" or "jól" as its called in Scandinavia but in spite of christianity overtaking the old asareligion we celebrate midsummer still today even if the celebrations has changed true the times.

I changed my mind about leaving ancient wooden poles and totems due to the significant importance they actually hold.

Point is that we dance around a cross called the midsummer pole

static.flickr.com...

wich was changed to it´s present look at the time when Scandinavia was converted to christianity. I may point out that it´s mostly in Sweden this tradition is most seriously celebrated even if it excists in the other Nordic countries. In Finland it´s caled Kokko and in Denmark it´s called Saint Hans fire.

Some said earlier that the pole was imported from germany in the 12th century but this has later been proven wrong in that matter that the crosslike pole came with christianity and replaced the original pole.

No one knows exactly how old the tradition is but some say it´s more than 5000 years old due to archeological findings.

Point is that the midsummer pole looked like this before christianity and was a fertilitysymbol representing all living things not only humans. It became a cross about seven hundred years ago.

static.flickr.com...

So this discussion is going in the right direction, and that is for me to find the origins of this symbol. Of curse the definition of a symbol could evidently be argued about but the most important thing in my point of view is that the symbol symbolize something.

And if you compare the circle with a dot in the middle then what do you get?
Well look att the last picture. A sort of obelisk going true one or several circles. But does it just stop there or is there more to it?

I´m most definately not an expert in the subject but one has to start somewhere, right?

AND...I know that I´m babbeling on about the obelisk as a symbol but since it´s allover the world yet today I personally think it´s the key to our ancient past.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by m4ng4n]