We must end the rising "culture of negativity" (SOLUTION POSTED)

Totally agree with the OP. The reason why I joined ATS is because I thought I could share my views with people that share the same interests in many of the topics presented on the site. Unfortunately, I've read many posts where people not only attack this or that person's views, but also their beliefs. It's as if nowadays, "it's cool" to bash someone's views or beliefs just to antagonize, which I think is against ATS posting rules.

Thread flagged.

What I think is that you should ponder your position on this, Skeptic, since it is going far too much in the direction controlling threads based on the OPINION of the posters. ATS has been bordering on totalitarian-like policy in its moderating system for quite a while now, but such a thing would be a terrible blow to freedom of expression. Remember the Internet? That was the place where anyone could gather everything ranging from the highest praises to the most gruesome insults -with all the brillant rational considerations and totally immature and irrelevant comments in between- for bringing new perspectives that could change the world. This is free speech. Expel the naysayers and b#llsh#tters and you suddenly wake up in 1984. As much despicable are the creatures who post these negative posts cab be, they are nothing else but a reflection of what some of this world IS in reality, so to not accept it is to shut our minds in an hermetic bubble of purity that is dangerously Socratic, if you know what I mean.

The problem is not about the "negativeness" of posts, and not even with unsubstanciated posts (the Skunkworks section seems to be quite effective to solve the issue already). Actually I think the biggest problem with the ATS forums is rather of a totally different nature...

All the overwhelming Flash content and banners are really a big pain in the arse on ATS, since the site almost cannot be browsed on older PCs with low ram, and it's technically preposterous. Everybody would enjoy a lighter and simpler website where they are not actually FORCED to load content that takes a lot of RAM. I know this is totally out of topic, but I'm bringing this because it really is an even more pressing issue than the one that this thread is about. Please moderators, do something about it... get rid of some code, of restructure the site in a simpler way, but this thing is really becoming a Babel Tower of code!

[edit on 6/5/09 by Echtelion]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


ATS is not a house, it's a restaurant, and some people are just critiquing the food and service.

I can see what you guys are trying to do here, and up to a point I can even agree with it, but you, and most other forums on the internet I will add, miss the basic communal reality of these sites: You are a space where other people add content.

ATS is not created by you. It is defined by you, but the creation process is split over thousands of people, and it's arrogance to throw some of them in front of the bus when you don't happen to agree with them. It's even more arrogance to do this under catch all phrases like "culture of negativity" and insulting phrases like "invertebrate", which I will just throw right at you, because it was proclaimed cowardly from a pedestal without feedback from the legions of users who get banned without a right of response. And even the T&C are arrogant, because you know full well most people don't read them, and even if they did they can't negotiate them. A lot of countries simply don't legally enforce unilateral contracts for this very reason.

Why not "We must end the rising culture of moderator arrogance and disrespect"?

Sorry if I seem negative, but the whole premisse of this thread really gets up my nose. And you, Skeptic Overlord, are not being honest about your real intentions, which are nothing more than unilateral control of the ATS group process, something which you can only thinly disguise behind shallow rhetoric.

I love the way people who have been here less than 3 weeks are levelling accusations at us and telling us about how ATS should work and what's good for us etc. and at the same time have the gall to call us arrogant.

Oh the irony!! :shk:

I'd like to publicly thank the Admin for giving us new tools to deal with this phenomenon.

Hopefully, ATS can be more like the old days in the future.
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[edit on 6 May 09 by Gools]

reply to post by Gools


Is that posting 3 months. Someone could have been reading posts for 5 years.

Are you alluding to the ability the site has to track non logged in users.

reply to post by Gools


The member join date is not that relevant. Some members lurk for years. Others "shed skins" regularly for anonimity reasons, morphing from account to account. Others violate the T&C and use clone accounts jumping from one to another when they get banned, because they have the ability to do so, as it's not rocket science, just creative use of proxy servers. Others pick up on the trends quickly, because you can read a lot in 3 months, and the posts predate the join day. And yet others are networked with other members that, through the grape vine tell it how it is.

I'm not admitting to any of the above or encouraging them, I'm just pointing out that there is a whole host of reasons why it is wrong to assume anything from the join date. Least of all naivety.

The whole classe structure between old timers and new members on a forum is another one of my pet peeves.

*sighs*

"We'll be creating a new forum for topics that are classified as hoaxes, frauds, or fakes. The "Hoaxes And The Bizarre" forum will soon be the new location for all such topics. This will provide people the opportunity to continue discussing the topics, where previously the thread may have been closed or removed. Threads in the forum forum will not have stars or flags, and will not appear on the site home."

So, "Skunk Works" is not enough? Some of the best topics ever on ATS were moved to "Skunk Works", only because they were truly destroying official truth...I can imagine that this hew forum will be used for the same purpose.
You are using fine tricks...yet I can read you well. I know I am a minority, but I just wanted to let you know that I KNOW.

reply to post by roadgravel


There is no such "ability" as you call it.

I'm referring to registration date.

As far as I'm concerned someone who is not a member can read the site as long as they want but they are not part of "the community" entitled to tell us how to run the shop.

Anybody can claim to have been a lurker for years whereas we have many members who have actually contributed to this community for those years and deserve to be heard and their opinions respected.

Someone who creates an account and immediately proceeds to tell us we suck and how to run the shop is part of the problem we are trying to address with the new measures we are implementing.
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reply to post by roadgravel


Ironically this site, not so long ago, actually encouraged anonymous posting. Now it seems you have to be logged in, upload content locally and be an old timer... how times they are a changing.

Originally posted by WarmthofSunlight
but you, and most other forums on the internet I will add, miss the basic communal reality of these sites: You are a space where other people add content.

I can't possibly see how you could make such an assumption about us. Our constant focus is on the efforts and content of our member contributions. So much so, that it's the cornerstone of our corporate strategy.

ATS is not created by you. It is defined by you,

Stop right there... exactly. It's up to us, the owners and operators, to define the framework under which the creations of the crowd occurs. Without a well-defined framework that establishes key identity attributes, the "crowd" will have no direction.

It's even more arrogance to do this under catch all phrases like "culture of negativity" and insulting phrases like "invertebrate", which I will just throw right at you, because it was proclaimed cowardly from a pedestal without feedback from the legions of users who get banned without a right of response.

"Proclaimed cowardly from a pedestal without feedback?" That's... uh... either misinformed or purposely confrontational. Each of these threads have put forth important points, and eagerly sought out feedback from our members... and then we acted on that feedback!

And even the T&C are arrogant, because you know full well most people don't read them, and even if they did they can't negotiate them.

Which is why we've gone through great lengths to make sure they're both prominently displayed, and well-written. Additionally, you seem to have missed the solution post where we've admitted more can be done to inform new users, and are taking proactive steps to do so.

Sorry if I seem negative, but the whole premisse of this thread really gets up my nose.

No, I don't think you're sorry at all. You've made assumptions that have no basis in fact for the purpose of trying to find something in which to rub our noses.

And you, Skeptic Overlord, are not being honest about your real intentions, which are nothing more than unilateral control of the ATS group process, something which you can only thinly disguise behind shallow rhetoric.

Another assumption, not based in fact, that is an insult to myself and our staff.

See... you're clearly not "sorry" for seeming negative.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Really?

If some stranger joined a dinner part at your house, offended some of your guests, complained about your food, argued that you choose the wrong wine, and then loudly bitched about some kind of conspiracy against your guests because you served NY strip steak instead of fillet mignon... you'd take that as a compliment?

While I don't agree entirely with "gatecrasher" in his/her opinions....your analogy seems a little off base to me.

If said "host" had put out an open invitation to a private function, how can there be reason for complaint that an undesirable turned up?
And if said "host" was making financial profit from the dinner party, then it's called a "restaurant" isn't it, and restaurants don't choose their customers do they unless they advertise to a particular clientelle?

I understand your point SO, but don't forget that it was the ATS owners who put the mass advertising out there and brought a lot of these unrefined posters in....not the existing members. And yet you turn to us for a solution to something that seems to have an obvious reason.

I believe it's right in front of you, flashing and scrolling as you read this as do millions of other internet users on other sites but of course, you and your colleagues have bills to pay and ATS running costs to justify. Fair enough.

The answer is simple....accept what you have..."warts and all". It's not THAT bad, and considering the cr*p there is out there (sites, people etc) this place still has a lot more refinement than a lot of environments.

Think of it more like a Farmers market than a McDonalds, but if you continue to offer open invitations, even a McDonalds customer will turn up now and then and expect fries and proccessed slop and sit there farting and burping.....it's what they're used to. Let's educate these minds instead of persecuting them. Enforce the etiquette more (I know you're going to) and offer something bright to the new members as a substitute to their quarterpounders and fries.

I guess the quote: "if you build it they will come" is not selective is it.

Good luck Bill, Mark & Simon, I hope things get better.

Originally posted by WarmthofSunlight

Others violate the T&C and use clone accounts jumping from one to another when they get banned, ...

They certainly do and the thing is they get themselves noticed over and over again never learning their lesson.

They're easy to spot. It's not rocket science.
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[edit on 6 May 09 by Gools]

Originally posted by WarmthofSunlight
Ironically this site, not so long ago, actually encouraged anonymous posting. Now it seems you have to be logged in, upload content locally and be an old timer... how times they are a changing.

Oh, I get it now... you're a returning previously banned (more than once) member who now is focused on nothing more than disruptive contributions and baseless accusations.

It's unfortunate that your previous account incarnations were unable to contribute to ATS content with civility and decorum, and so far, it doesn't appear as though there's much hope for your most-recent effort.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

1. New members will be on an informal three-month probationary period.

2.New members must attain 20 replies before they can create new threads.

3. Those who "take the piss" every once in a while in the course of a heated but productive thread have nothing to worry about.

4. We'll be creating a new forum for topics that are classified as hoaxes, frauds, or fakes. The "Hoaxes And The Bizarre" forum will soon be the new location for all such topics. This will provide people the opportunity to continue discussing the topics, where previously the thread may have been closed or removed. Threads in the forum will not have stars or flags, and will not appear on the site home.

Points (numbered by me) 1 & 2 - could you not apply these rules to existing members who overstep the mark?

3. Oh, good. I enjoy a little bit of humour in a debate and think that as long as that option is open people might be inclined to be less aggressive.

4. Marvellous, now I'll know exactly where to look when I want to find something to give me a laugh. I enjoy some of the sillier threads and, when it's good natured, the sort of ribbing an OP can expect for starting them.

Edit to make a point clearer -existing members on probation would need to make 20 replies from the date of being put on probation. And not just 'trolling', the fact they were on probation ought to encourage them to make more positive posts.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by berenike]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


This idea to me seems quite workable. However I must point out that one cannot please all the people all the time, it is an impossibility.

Some people are just negative. They don't like things that go against their core beliefs. In these cases they feel offended by the words they read and respond with emotion instead of reasoning. A flaw of the human condition I am afraid. Until humanity becomes more logical and less emotional I fear that negativity will be a flaw in people for a long time to come.

I applaud the efforts of the staff and administration on continuing to improve the experiences of as many people as they do on this site. Once again I say this is the best site on the internet. Which is the reason I assume that such solutions are necessary in order to preserve that place.

I think the solution presented is sound, fair and more than likely workable. I agree that it takes time for newcomers to adjust to a site like ATS and it's understandable that a probationary period must be allowed for the new member to adjust to posting here.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Don't make assumptions about me, as chances are you will be wrong. I am not a previously banned member, nor do I have previous "incarnations." My situation is much more subtle than that. Suffice to say is nobody banned me here on ATS. However we can discuss this in general terms without making it about the disgruntled members you seem to feel persecuted by:

What I am trying to make you guys see is that it is pointless to go into a hardline forum stasi moderation mindset, as is the norm on internet forums, when you can't possibly hope to enforce it, the technology simply won't let you. Those that wish to come back will come back, those that wish to go would have gone anyway. You don't ask for names and address in the registration. We are, for the most part, discussing with a degree of anonimity here. Just because you don't like the angle of some of the posters that does not give you the right to throw them out the window. Just because you don't like where the threads are going that does not mean you can shape their content agressively. And you don't even have the technical ability to do so if you continue to think that you can manage "the crowd". Which is the wrong mindset to be in the first place.

I am trying to save you from yourselves here, because the road you are going on is a no way out, and it will end with the destruction of ATS. If you want to retain credability you have to allow freedom of speech for those you don't agree with, and you have to allow the truth to come, no matter who's toes get trodden. Otherwise a whole new generation of sites, built on a serverless architecture and using peer to peer connections, will take over and allow the truth to be told and the group mind to find itself without shaping from interest groups. And the time of ATS will be over, just like the time of the MSM is coming to an end.

Your choice.

my personal opininon is you have alot of disinfo agents all over your sight. as i enjoy listeneing to ufo, reptilians, and other paranormal happenings, but what i see from atleast a third of the posters, is blatant opposition regardless of how the writer states the experience!

so not sure boss!
shrug

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

We'll be creating a new forum for topics that are classified as hoaxes, frauds, or fakes. The "Hoaxes And The Bizarre" forum will soon be the new location for all such topics. This will provide people the opportunity to continue discussing the topics, where previously the thread may have been closed or removed. Threads in the forum forum will not have stars or flags, and will not appear on the site home.

Could you expound on this a little more? Is this new forum only going to be for threads that were closed? What will be the difference between this new forum, skunk works and the grey area? I guess I don't understand why you would be adding this, since there are already 2 forums for fantastical stories and you are considering a 3rd?

I am looking at this from where to put a thread point of view because it already seems confusing.


Thanks

After reading the exchange on this page of this thread I have seen the light. And now understand exactly what the opening post was about.

You couldn't have planned to have a better example... Unless you did?

I get it, some people are going after confrontation and negativity as a means to gain attention and will only post from that ever confrontational position.

Criticism is one thing, blatant insults and disrespect is another.

Having seen it here, I wish all the staff the best in dealing with that kind of crap and in no way would envy any of you.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by WarmthofSunlight
Ironically this site, not so long ago, actually encouraged anonymous posting. Now it seems you have to be logged in, upload content locally and be an old timer... how times they are a changing.

Oh, I get it now... you're a returning previously banned (more than once) member who now is focused on nothing more than disruptive contributions and baseless accusations.

It's unfortunate that your previous account incarnations were unable to contribute to ATS content with civility and decorum, and so far, it doesn't appear as though there's much hope for your most-recent effort.

hahahahaha I loved this post. You go get 'em SO.