Prove or disprove a Pentagon fly-over.

reply to post by LaBTop



Oh, dear. I believe you are really over-analyzing this thing a bit too much.

However, the first transcribed event starts earlier than 09:25, in fact at 09:23:57: "WORD31 released off of Andrews".

That comment was likely added as info, and is not relevant in any way to what follows in the transcript.

...it means it got its clearance to start procedures for its departure which would follow shortly.

Again, a demonstration of a lack of comprehension. An airplane, holding and waiting for a 'release', is ready for departure! It isn't going to "start procedures".... but, anyway, this is irrelevant.


Now, this is a false assumption, and just causing you utmost confusion:

It is very important to note, in my opinion, those 63 seconds -earlier- time stamp (than the officially given starting time of the audio-tape as 09:25) of the first transcribed event in the FAA list, 09:23:57 !

I have to repeat, the "108TYSON" tape is a recording of the ATC radio communications. The 'release' for WORD31 was sent via telephone, from one controller to the other. It merely indicates that the controller who will be accepting the hand-off from Andrews Departure Control (TYSON) after WORD31 takes off is ready, for the estimated time of WORD31's entry into the controller's airspace.

Trying to equate the comment of the 'release' to the rest is fruitless, as they are unconnected. The 'release' authorization is sent to the airport Tower controller (Local Controller) who then issues the take-off clearance, and THEN the airplane (WORD31, in this case) switches to the Departure frequency once airborne.

This simple, and basic. Takes longer to type it out than to actually do it!!!

Remember, also, that the timeframe of the TYSON recording, as stated in the introduction, is NOT exact, it encompasses a period of time as stated, NOT an exact start/stop time!

This is extremely difficult to explain, on an Internet Forum Board....wish I had a video depiction....


Well, they sometimes they say 'seek, and ye shall find...'

THIS is short, kind of an advertisement for the FAA, but it has some good bits:


[edit on 5 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

If you look at the full-screen RADES/NEADS video, and use the slider in the Google video screen and slide it fast from the start to impact, you will find the time (at the top of the screen) that GOFER06 had the 757 straight ahead, at his 12 o'clock position. It's around 09:36:03,396 EDT time.
( video.google.com... )

Weed, I bolded it now for you, I do not imply at all to listen to that video, but to look instead at the changing of the fat rolling time stamps in the top center of the screen, when you move the video time-position slider at the bottom of the FULL screen.
When you move it fast enough, but not too fast, you'll see the reddish LOOK identity move towards the green long lettered GOFER06 identity on the screen, and there is a clear 12 o'clock position for GOFER06.

reply to post by LaBTop


This monitor just isn't good enough for me to see what you're trying to show me, apparently.

But if you're trying to imply that LOOK was AAL77, that is mistaken.

You also have to realize that when traffic is pointed out at an "o'clock" position it is merely a general estimate, not exact, due to many factors. Relative movement of both targets, and time lag between Radar antenna sweeps, and the controller's screen update, all things like that...

Did you read my posts on page 10's bottom about the 9/11 Commission visiting the NEADS facilities and directly finding out the fact, and that fact got admitted even also directly by NEADS officials, that many events they heard described on the audio tapes did not got transcribed nor fitted the time stamps? And did you read that most of the telephone calls clearly audible in the tapes were not transcribed?
That implies that at least the 9/11 Commission understood the importance of fitting in telephone calls into the audio tapes transcripts and its TIME stamped timeline. Those telephone calls were btw also registered with attached time stamps.
If you read the full Scribble links provided by History Commons, you will find out that the 9/11 Commission realized that they never would succeed to get the true transcripts ready before the release of their report.
NEADS was not cooperative.

Btw, let's not enter the realm of "nitpicking" when you interpret my remark :

...it means it got its clearance to start procedures for its departure which would follow shortly.

as a lack of comprehension.

If you look back at this post of mine :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
you'll see that from another transcript, not the Pinnacle one, it is clear that GOFER06 needed at least 4 to 5 minutes to get airborne, however that event (going airborne) was not transcribed with an attached time stamp in that particular transcript. Those minutes do cover however nicely my description of "shortly", I think.
And perhaps I hassled around with the terms "released" and "cleared".

But that's not the quintessence of the matter I try to address.
And I am the local seismic multiple poster here.
Just "Search" for " LaBTop seismic ".

reply to post by LaBTop

...it is clear that GOFER06 needed at least 4 to 5 minutes to get airborne, however that event (going airborne) was not transcribed with an attached time stamp in that particular transcript.

Not nitpicking, really.

GOFER could have been sitting there with an engine or two shut down, to conserve fuel. They wanted a little time in position on the Runway to align the INSs. This is because they tend to 'drift', and accuracy suffers, from the sitting still. I don't know th esystems on the C-130, but I assume they were self-contained INS, without radio updating capability. The Lat/Long co-ordinates of the end of the Runway are very accurate, and it only takes a few moments to refine the position in an update.

Again, a 'release' is not the same as a 'take-off clearance'.

reply to post by weedwhacker



www.abovetopsecret.com...
I am not mistaken, LOOK was flight AAL77.

And the "o'clock" conversation between the Andrews TRACON controller and the pilot of GOFER06, O'Brien clearly took only a few seconds, see my two links to the Pinnacle transcripts on page 10's bottom.
And I already addressed the 12 seconds sweep time from the radar antenna at Reagan Airport. The 12 o'clock position for GOFER06 and the comparable LOOK (757) position are clearly the same, namely 09:36:01.
Exactly falling both ofcourse in one of the 12 seconds sweep periods of that radar disc. That disc "saw" both planes at 09:36:01.
Look it up yourself in this drawing of the NEADS/RADES time stamps/positions of both planes :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7904ae38c716.jpg[/atsimg]

I'll explain why I think it is so important to relate audio taped and timestamped events to radar tracked and atomic clock timestamped flight positions.

If I am right, then we have an extended flight path OVER and to the east of the Pentagon of at least 22 to 64 seconds, which are then depicted in the RADES radar data.
It means that the whole RADES data loop must be shifted 22 to 64 seconds to the east on that above shown map.

reply to post by LaBTop


I've been trying to research 'LOOK' and whether the unknown target (primary target) that was AAL77 had been given the 'code' LOOK for the computers, or if there was a Military airplane with that callsign.

I can't find any references to ATC usage of 'LOOK' being assigned to unkowns.

To me, 'LOOK' sounds too specific, as in it was related to the possible impending return of the POTUS on AF1, from his trip to Florida. Just speculating, there. An actual air traffic controller would be useful, on the 'LOOK' issue....

reply to post by LaBTop

It means that the whole RADES data loop must be shifted 22 to 64 seconds to the east on that above shown map.

I'm sorry, I just cannot follow that logic.

Again, the times on the RADES and on the ATC tapes match, I just don't see/hear any discrepancies.

This all seems to have started when someone from 'PfffT' came up with the assumption of the wrong Departure Procedure out of Andrews for GOFER06. It's been clearly shown that the C-130 took off, and turned left heading 270, and was subsequently vectored, as heard on the tapes, and as depicted by the blue 'push pins' in the graphic. I just ain't seeing a problem??

reply to post by LaBTop


LT, you need to add 25.3 seconds to the radar return times in the image you're using.

In this study the time of day used as the standard time is from the USAF 84th RADES data, which covers all of the flights from takeoff to respective impacts. Initial comparisons of the radar data from the USAF and the FAA showed that an offset in time was present. The 84th RADES found that the clock for the North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) lagged the clock for the other sectors by 25.3 seconds. The other sectors were all in agreement with the Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) time. Therefore, 25.3 seconds must be added to the radar data from the 84th RADES.

Source

WW, Flight 77's primary radar return was tagged with "LOOK" by a DCA TRACON controller, according to Lynn Spencer.

Boone, at last a solid link to a reasonable explanation for those 25.3 seconds John Farmer found also already a long time ago, he found it in his then freshly received FOIA requests. For that link you got my star.
I remarked already about it early in this thread, and here :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
but without a solid link like yours, which is new for me btw.

It still is a remarkable discrepancy from all the other Air Defense Sectors, especially seen in the light of that special day.
Why and when did NEADS set its radar records clock 25.3 seconds too slow?


Let's recap now the time stamp for the two involved planes' 12 o'clock positions in the RADES/NEADS blue and yellow pins map drawing posted by SPreston :
I first took the 09:36:01 time from that map as that position.

09:36:26.3 is now however the corrected RADES radar time stamp for that 12 o'clock positions event, adjusted for the 25.3 seconds that NEADS lagged behind to all the other sectors' correct GPS times.

09:36:22 is the time stamp for the same event from the officially transcribed "Pinnacle" FOIA version of the " DCA 108 TYSON " audio tape. That's only 4.3 seconds difference.

I do realize the fault margins of possibly several seconds involved in the pilot's mind-processing of the 12 o'clock event, so when we can trust the timeline of events expressed in that " DCA 108 TYSON " audio tape, there is no real discrepancy anymore between the audio taped events, and the radar data taped events.

The only problem I still have with trusting that timeline, is the near impossibility to find a precise event we can clock to identical events in other timelines.
The only one I can see as a reasonable candidate, would be the 09:38:00 time stamp in the Pinnacle transcript. That's the one where " GOFER06 advised aircraft was down just northwest of DCA ".
I do realize again, that this reporting by O'Brien is not a precise time stamp, he perhaps had to wait to see smoke rising, before talking to his flight controller at Andrews AFB. But it will be within a few seconds error margin at most. And I do suppose him to have seen the bright impact flash first, before smoke rose up, and start reporting when he saw that flash after he followed the constant descent of that 757 with his own eyes.


The stubborn distrusting disbeliever I am by education, of officially, or by news outlets, offered facts, I now try to cross-check officially released timestamps for the impact event.

1. The 9/11 Commission put the time of impact as 09:37:46 AM.
9/11 commission staff statement No. 17:
www.msnbc.msn.com...
Excerpt: ""The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46.""

2. The Pinnacle PDF transcript has O'Brien telling us at 09:38:00 :
""Gofer06 advised aircraft was down just northwest of DCA"".
That's 14 seconds difference, which I can accept as (maximum) needed to switch his mike and inform his Andrews AFB flight controller.

3. video.google.com...
The purple dot for flight 77 disappears from the screen between 09:37:25 and 09:37:29 (~09:37:27),
and we knew that we had to add 25.3 seconds to that figure to get the real impact time for the RADES radar data, which is thus 09:37:50 to 09:37:54 (~09:37:52).

Two of these time stamps ( 2. 09:38:00 and 3. ~09:37:52 ) differ 8 seconds and the 9/11 Commission one differs 14 or 6 seconds which is within a maximum acceptable error margin. That could be acceptable as a slow reaction time because of utter confusion of a pilot seeing another pilot crashing (into the Pentagon) somewhere in his far distance.
Remember, O'Brien said not that he saw the plane crash into the Pentagon, he stated he saw it ""was down just northwest of DCA"".


To compare the provided time stamps, we can calculate the time span it took according to the Pinnacle transcript from the GOFER06 ""impact"" remark, back to his ""12 o'clock position"".
That would be 09:38:00 minus 09:36:22 = 98 seconds in the Pinnacle transcript from the DCA_TYSON audio tape.


We then double-check by listening to two actual audio tapes to physically calculate the same period, and that gives us two time stamps, 12:05 and 11:50 in the two audio tapes when O'Brien tells his flight controller ""it's at my 12 o'clock position"" and the moment O'Brien gives his ""aircraft was down just northwest of DCA"" remark, which should be at the actual audio tapes
12:05 seconds + 98 "Pinnacle" seconds = 13:43 position
or
11:50 seconds + 98 "Pinnacle" seconds = 13:58 position
Did I find those "down" remarks there?

The first tape is now at this John Farmer page ( aal77.com... ) under this link :
aal77.com...
1 DCA 108 TYSON 1325-1348 (11 MB)
It has the introductory female voice overlapping at the tape start, and has the "12 o'clock position" remark beginning at 12:05 in that tape. It has the "plane down" remark beginning at 13:38 in that tape.
That is a time elapsed of 93 seconds, a 5 seconds neglectable difference with the Pinnacle transcript.

The second tape is at his MOVIES-link ( aal77.com... ) under this name :
DCA_TYSON Mix, AVI file (70 MB)
I found that "plane down" remark now beginning at the 13:23 point in that tape. I found the 12 o'clock remark beginning at 11:49 in the tape.
Thus, in the audio we now find by physically listening to it, that actually 13:23 minus 11:49 elapsed, which is 94 seconds, a 4 seconds neglectable difference with the Pinnacle transcript.


To triple check on those time stamps, we can also subtract 98 "Pinnacle" seconds from the
( video.google.com... ) RADES-radar/NEADS-audio video impact position of 09:37:27 (mean value) on that RADES-screen, and see if we then arrive at a RADES-screen-visible ""12 o'clock"" position for O'Brien's green dotted GOFER06 plane compared to the purple dotted LOOK plane which was flight 77.
We move the video slider on the bottom of that screen back from "impact" to that "12 o'clock" time shown in the top center of that RADES/NEADS full-screen.
That must be found then at the 09:37:27 mean (between 09:37:25 and 09:37:29) visible disappearance of the plane's radar dot "impact" moment, minus 98 seconds = 09:35:49 for the "twelve o'clock" position .
Did I find that "12 o'clock position there?
No, I did find it at the 09:36:01,394 position, which is only 12.4 seconds away. That's not significant enough for a conspiracy proposal.

Which time we must actually correct by adding 25.3 seconds to arrive at a real time "12 o'clock position" of 09:36:26,694 which we then at last can compare to the real time audio tape transcript time from the Pinnacle FOIA document of 09:36:22, which is an acceptable 4.7 seconds, within the error margin.

As I wrote above:
""09:36:26.3 is now however the correct RADES radar time stamp for that (12 o'clock position) event, adjusted for the 25.3 seconds that NEADS lagged behind to all the other sectors' correct GPS times.""
09:36:26.3 compared to a corrected RADES time stamp of 09:36:26,694 is a neglectable discrepancy.
That is definitely ""within a few seconds error margin at most"", as I noted above.

To conclude this lengthy brain training, I seemed to have re-invented the 25.3 seconds "wheel", arriving at the same conclusion as John Farmer and several others, but by different reasoning.
What a waste of time, caused by one tiny faulty FOIA request answer. NEADS had set its radar clock 25.3 seconds wrong.


OK, back to the basics.
Anybody out there contesting the CIT witness statements, indicating a definite north of Citgo, and over the Navy Annex building flight path?
Which in turn strongly suggests that most of the officially released data is in fact falsified.

What was the last offered, corrected by adding 25.3 seconds, official NEADS radar return time stamp for the attack plane?

And was that time stamp later than a possible 9/11 Commission impact time of 09:37:46 ?
I don't think however, that such bold mistakes would have been made in planning such events.