Chemtrail believers, I challenge you to debunk contrail science

reply to post by watchtheashes


You sort of missed my point, I think.

I believe you may be seeing some 'hot-dogging' going on. I think you said 'vertical' flight -- only fighters can do that.

Still, that's off the point of this thread - 'spraying' at high altitude.

Main point to re-iterate is: There is no way to 'spray' as outlined by the "chemtrail" believers by regularly scheduled commercial passenger or cargo jets. Nothing of the sort of substances alleged to be, say "in the fuel" could make it through the entire process that fuel undergoes from tank to combustion. AND, as other many well-educated and experienced people have pointed out, the SAME fuel used in passenger jets is also used to operate ground equipment, at airports everywhere, that operate with diesel engines.

reply to post by mostlyspoons


For mostlyspoons....I see this argument frequently, as well.

IF there were a concerted Military program, perhaps even a co-ordinated top-secret NATO operation going on, using Military resources....then, we'd have no idea, would we? Problem is, for ALL air traffic over land, whether the USA, or Europe, or Australia...even Military are under Air Traffic Control authority. Exception is in designated Military Operations Areas, huge swaths of airspace (in sparsely populated areas, usually deserts).

Additionally, I would think that an effort to 'deflect' sunlight, or more accurately, to increase the albedo of the planet overall, would better be undertaken over the oceans. BUT, the sheer size of the planet makes this a dodgy project, from the beginning.

Finally....again, the best place to concentrate such a program, if you wished to affect the albedo, would be nearer the Equator. More sunlight concentration, and, as well, upper-level winds are VERY light at those latitudes.

reply to post by watchtheashes


You must be new.

Dennis Kuchinich and HR 2977:

One of the more pervasive myths regarding “chemtrails” is that current presidential candidate Dennis Kuchinich tried to have them banned by an act of congress, but was pressured by the government to modify the act to remove the mention of “chemtrails”.

So what really happened? In a nutshell, Kucinich did not write the bill (or read it, until too late), the focus of the bill is nothing to do with chemtrails, it was written by UFO enthusiasts trying to:

1. Nullify a vast conspiracy by the “military-industrial complex”
2. Allow the use of suppressed alien technology for free energy
3. Avoid accidentally shooting down (or scaring away) visiting aliens.

They listed a bunch of weird weapons, including mind control, tectonic weapons and (very briefly) chemtrails. The bill was re-written several time in less unusual language to give it chance of passing, but ultimately fizzled in committee.

contrailscience.com...



Chemtrail/barium reported on the news:

I'll just link you to where I covered this before:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


So you're not presenting anything new here, so for the sake of bringing this back on topic, why don't you try to answer the OP questions? Or do some reading up on some basic meteorology?

This is a pointless thread....Of course you cant debunk it....an to say a plane can not spray chemicals into the air is just a moron....This is already MSM.

Contrails....Fact...

Chemtrails....Fact.

Originally posted by GOTZEUS
This is a pointless thread....Of course you cant debunk it....

Of course you cant....the reason being because you dont know how the atnosphere works, so instead you revert to crappy pictures like the ones you posted, one showing a contrail actually being formed by a passing plane, the other showing a mature contrail which has obviously lingered for a while. Also the crappy images show the plane at a higher altitude than the first contrail, but since you know nothing about meteorology you would probably just assume that the atmosphere has exactly the same conditions from ground level all the way up

an to say a plane can not spray chemicals into the air is just a moron....This is already MSM.

Nobody said a plane cant spray chemicals...


[edit on 1/5/2009 by OzWeatherman]

reply to post by GOTZEUS


"CHEMTRAILS - Fact"

Bzzzzzzz!! Wrong!

Seriously. Reason this out, for a second or two. Oh, and pick a side.

First side: Terrible chemicals sprayed in the air.

OK, examine this 'theory'. WHY would the perpetrators make it SO obvious??? Where is the logic?

Second side: Something 'sprayed' to modify climate.

Again, why be 'secretive' about it?? IF it were a valid program, you'd think the people behind it would be taking credit left and right, thumping their chests and proclaiming that they are 'saving the planet'!!

Third side: A bunch of hysterical bollocks, unsupported by any real evidence, but fed by outrageous claims of pseudo-scientific nincompoops who use the Internet to blast their idiotic rantings and scare up money from naive individuals, who, once duly frightened, will buy anything!

Pick a side.....

Okay, if you don;t want to debunk the science behind contrails formation and show that what meteorlogosts have asserted to be the case for 80 years is wrong, maybe you can debuk some pictures of contrails?

Are these contrails or chemtrails?

If they are not contrails, prove it. If they are contrails then explain how and wy chemtrail look or behave differently. Simples

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9e383858e8ec.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c7a4341bfaa1.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/01e119e99f8e.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/461aaea1942d.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a25ad27e2fb9.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/43c43d6c6733.jpg[/atsimg]

Some good background info, before you start:

www.airspacemag.com...

It doesnt take too much of a stretch of imagination to see the possibility of their being chemtrails. But sense no one can definitely prove yes or no otherwise, here is the fact that I like to stick with.

Planes can and do spray. (What is sprayed is not the issue.)
I have posted pics on this subject here at ATS before. The pics I showed were jets, in Budapest Hungary, during a holiday, putting on an air show.

The spray coming out, which no one there would have denied was spray, looked and acted just like what you see on normal days with the various planes you see in the skies - and which I have photographed, and others have as well - numerous pics are up.

Here lies the irony, at the air show, no one doubts that the planes are spraying.
You even see them cut off and on the spray and at times the color even changes.
BUT...low and behold, the same occurrence happens on any other given day, and you see the plane cut off the trail and it pics up again, and you have someone arguing that its just how the contrail is behaving at a given moment.

(Oh, the point of the lines at the air show is not that they only look like the lines in the sky on a typical day, but behave the same way in 'cloud formation'.)

So, the key here is perhaps to stop calling things chemtrails. Heck, I cant prove there are chemicals there, but typically anything we do does have synthetics involved. lol

If the capability to spray is there, who is to say whether or not they are spraying chemicals...its not impossible.

The problem is what we are accustomed to. We will die defending the reality we grew up in as anything else scares the bejeezus out of us.

No wonder there is no disclosure, we would all freak out and get paranoid...there was already a test - remember some decades ago with the radio broadcast and people got all freaked. Not saying that it was a literal test for disclosure, but it shows we cant handle anything much besides our 9-5 routine. Many people have no time for anything but eating, drinking, procreating, & dieing. (with a couple of beers in between maybe.)

At one level, it can be scary when you realize the potential out there...but you must realize that even beyond that is more potential...for good - and it must be so, or we wouldnt still be roaming the earth.

I could care less, well to a certain degree, if its chemtrails or not. (I do hate that the cloud cover affects perfectly nice days to be honest with you...either it needs to get cloudy and rain...or be a clear sky...but thats just me.)

What I am interested in is seeing less of the fighting back and forth over something like 'planes cant spray' (which even a child knows it can who saw a crop duster), and keeping the possibility open. You dont have to believe in something to consider the true possibility of it happening - you just need an open mind.

Its the open minded people that are looked at as the insane ones, until the masses adopt it, but by that time they are stoned like the prophets of old - and the newer generation are like the pharisees who say they 'wont stone the prophets', but turn around and do. (words are pointers, dont get bent out of shape over the exact wordings.)

So, I wonder...can we stop the duality, the 'deny this, deny that' - we will 'deny' ourselves to death. Instead, focus on what we want...knowledge. Which means thinking out of the box and not putting a label on it right away. (I know sometimes we just think we know it, until we find out we dont. The universe is quite a tricky thing is she not.)

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by OzWeatherman

Contrails are formed when hot exhaust (comprised of water, CO2, CO and dust), from an aircraft engine condenses, causing the surrounding air to become saturated.

Hey Oz, we had discussed in your earlier thread what we see here in Ann Arbor. Here are some photos photos I took last week, typical of the situation, illustrating what I mentioned back then.

04/24/2009 - early afternoon

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cd9e51edb644.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bec82c24d012.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7d464a4c39fe.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/96bbac360a80.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0996860c1418.jpg[/atsimg]

04/24/2009 - later afternoon

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f08aefe7e574.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18b46dc26960.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b886e7a599aa.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a011f13f23d8.jpg[/atsimg]
04/24/2009 - later afternoon - no trail - what's up with this ?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5dacaa37c8e2.jpg[/atsimg]

04/25/2009 - noon time temp, bad storm at about 3pm

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2ab1ac4bd3ee.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/953e9abc6c1d.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/587a3827d175.jpg[/atsimg]

Ann Arbor is situated about 30 miles or so from Detroit Metro Airport, which is a major domestic and international hub. So, this would explain the heavy air traffic.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/eae211aa473a.jpg[/atsimg]
But, I must say, that sometimes for days and even weeks on end we see no cloud making whatsoever.

It just doesn't seem to all 'add up' right in my view ...

reply to post by visible_villain


Geez....villian.

Some nice pictures of cirrus clouds, with a contrail or two thrown in.

AND, what is the meaning of the surface temperature readings?

It is not relevant to equate temperature on the ground with temps in the upper atmosphere. It COULD, though, be a sign of a cool front moving into your area, with cloud formation along the leading edge.

Here is a short lesson on cloud types....

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by WarmthofSunlight
Why would chemtrail believers even want to debunk contrail science? Sorry, but I fail to see the link, this is apples and oranges territory and this whole thread seems a bit surreal to me.

Well, most chemtrail threads consist of someone posting an image of a contrail and labelling it as a trail of chemicals released by the government. Other come on and say that its just a normal contrail. Pretty much the point of this is to see if anyone calling these trails, chemtrails, is able to debunk the science which proves that they are ordinary contrails.

Another way of looking at it is if you can disprove the science behind the formation of contrails, then maybe the chemtrail theory may seem more plausible to those of us that do not believe in them

Understand?

As someone already said, why is it on us to be debating Contrail science? I have never heard of anyone on this forum stating contrails to be fictitious.

Just because I can prove that guns blow peoples heads off, doesn't mean that I can or can't prove who shot JFK, see what I am saying? So it's not on us to 'disprove' contrails, cause that's never been the debate, just as we would never debate if guns can blow peoples head off.

---

So, to be straight, we all agree contrails are real and are of course always being made in the way you stated in your OP. But what a lot of people in the world and on this forum are finding odd, is the fact that the so called "chem trails" don't disperse as contrails do. Furthermore, on most days when you witness this phenomenon, if it were contrails then you would see one going from one side of the sky, to the other. Instead, we see criss-crossed patterns where its highly obvious the plane is circling around and applying the trails in patterns. Why would any normal plane being flying around the same area in a pattern? Aren't jets for transporting people from point A to point B... and not flying in patterns in 1 area?


[img]http://api.ning.com/files/KO8SrLP45ylhbmHwqLZtdJip3uy6CTe9mhPyVatpRW*3wR*CuCla31RrguXX4RbIw02zIPTPpw99JubjvjggUKJliPKk*1Qo/Chemtrails_08.jpg[/img ]

It's also worth noting that Germany is now admitting their programs here.. Additionally, as a previous poster noted, if this were a completely fabricated product of the internet, then why would OFFICIAL government documents refer to Chemtrails USING THAT WORD? Don't you think that's odd? I would think if something didn't exist, it wouldn't be referred to by government.

I think if you're here to debunk chemtrails then you should take that stance, and tell us why they don't exist, rather than showing us something we all agree exists, and telling us to debunk that. The logic in this thread is backwards and pointless, good luck everyone trying to win the battle in this thread.

reply to post by king9072


king, your link to that old chestnut in German has been thoroughly explained. Find a friend who speaks German. The piece is about 'chaff'...the full extent of the cheaters to spin and lie in order to fool the gullible into believing "chemtrail" hoaxes is truly astonishing.

From that same link, a photo of a B747 making contrails....four, actually, as you see, coming from the engines. Yeah, ya see, that PROVES contrails, and nothing else. (I am assuming that the photo has not been 'shopped' in any way, of course. At first glance, it does appear enhanced).

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow

And yet another ozweatherman thread on the same denial of chemtrails. What are the ATS rules for posting repeat threads? this is getting ridiculous!

I thought there were rules about multiple threads also but I guess he and his friends have someone on the inside that is able to help bypass the rules...

This subject has been debunked by the government documents themselves and he still uses the same rhetoric that nobody has touched it.

ATS is sliding drastically...

reply to post by king9072

It's also worth noting that Germany is now admitting their programs here.. Additionally, as a previous poster noted, if this were a completely fabricated product of the internet, then why would OFFICIAL government documents refer to Chemtrails USING THAT WORD? Don't you think that's odd? I would think if something didn't exist, it wouldn't be referred to by government.

This group that is fighting to DEBUNK con/chem trails is far more superior in the intellectual department when compared to the governments of the world.... They, the governments, are unable to provide us with any real data and everything is made up.... This group of debunkers is awesome in my books.....

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
I can say with a 100% certainty

That is pretty dangerous... lol ;-)

Could any of you weather giants explain the black lines that you can see leading the white jets or are parallel the trails ? This phenom is rare yet happens.

As much as I would like to agree with OzWeatherman, from memory you are based in Darwin, I myself am in Cairns and live withing 4 kilometers from the airport.
I have seen contrails stop and start and also hang around for more than an hour.
I believe that your knowledge is science based and at the same time, you are viewing Southern hemisphere skies.

What is being witnessed in the Northern hemisphere is something that you or I cannot honsetly say what it is.
Now I agree that there are many people who see a contrail and cry the sky is falling and do no service to what may or may not be happening,
but we have here people who witness them on a daily basis and see how they behave in the sky above where they live.
Now people may not be a meteorologist, but they can look up at the sky.

You would have to agree that the military does all sorts of testing that do not see the light of day when it comes to the general public.
Just because moraly you would not spray people or the skies does not mean that it does not happpen.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
It's like they deliberately cross the trails to condense them into bigger clouds.

NO! Never, ever cross the trails. Bad stuff happens when you cross the trails. Haven't you seen Ghostbusters?

Oz, I applaud your efforts at educating the dirty masses. But, I'm afraid it is futile.

I will now present watchtheashes' evidence FOR chemtrails:

Originally posted by watchtheashes
No normal plane would follow such strange paths nor move at the speeds they do to do it.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
these are not normal maneuvers for any plane.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
When the natural clouds do come in...they look WAY different.

Slamdunk, watchtheashes! You are WAY more convincing than an actual meteorologist.

Originally posted by huntergatherer

Could any of you weather giants explain the black lines that you can see leading the white jets or are parallel the trails ? This phenom is rare yet happens.

Yep, thats whats referred to as a contrail shadow. Occurs when the sun is at an angle where the shadow of the conrail projects onto a lower layer of cloud such as cirrostratus. Due to the transparency of cirrostratus, the shadow is easily spotted from the ground.

www.atoptics.co.uk...

Hello,

Can you chemtrail-believers please explain why the "chem"trails appear so very close to each other with wide spaces of no "chem"trails on either side? If someone was spraying something sinister, woudn't it be smarter to spray a bigger area? Otherwise it's simply just a matter of moving a few miles and you'd be well clear of the "chem"trails?

And why is it these "chem"trails always seem to follow comercial flight routes?

Just wondering you know...