On The Feasibility of Greys

Courtesy ofalien-ufo-pictures.com


The Problem:There is an ever growing divide among people about the ‘feasibility of the Grey alien’. Persons skeptical of the Grey reports tend to use this argument to dispute their existence. So as someone who believes in this phenomena I feel I must present the arguments presented by both sides of this ever growing phenomena.Also we will take a look at facts we know about evolution and its likely outcome on another, Earth similar planet. We will then take a look at the interpretation and theories put forth by both sides of this issue.

Believers Stance:The believers stance is possibly the strongest of the two because they house eyewitness reports of these creatures with many reports being to hard to refuse as happened. These reports range from common people who report abductions to military officers, NASA scientist, and other reputable people. A brief mention of some substantial eyewitness cases;

1. The Roswell Incident- In July of 1947 the was a reported crash of an alien spacecraft, as most people know. Scattered about this craft was reportedly four alien bodies, with one still being alive. The creatures inside the craft were and still are described by civilian and military alike as “short(3-4 ft tall),bald,hairless,skinny with an over sized head with large, black, almond shaped eyes, and GREY.”Keep in mind this information about the physical attributes of these creatures wasn’t known until many decades later.

2.The Hill Abduction-In September of 1961 Mr. and Mrs. Hill were driving home late from a trip in upstate New York when they were reportedly(and to this day not debunked, in fact more evidence has been found in favor of their story.)abducted and experimented upon by “short,grey skinned beings with a large head and large black eyes”.Later, under hypnosis much more locking evidence like the “Star Map” and later the “Pink Substance” would reinforce this story.

3. The Travis Walton Abduction- On November 5th,1975 there was arguably the most phenomenal UFO/alien abduction related case ever. Working late with fellow workers out in the forest (they were clearing trees for the US government) the other workers and himself spotted an “almond shaped” craft low in the sky. Walton wanted a closer look and when he got near the now very low craft, he was “struck by a blue beam of light”. The friends, thinking he was dead, quickly fled the scene. Travis Walton was missing for five days before he was returned. He told of being abducted and placed on a “examination table” where he encountered ”small,grey skinned beings with a large head and large black eyes”He was given a lie detector test and passed, to this day this is one of the ‘core’ cases of Ufology.

Those were a few of the more undeniable cases in the history of Ufology, there are many others. Now to another stance of some believers.

4.Directed Panspermia-This is the belief that all life, at least in the galaxy was intelligently put there by some super-advanced race of beings.This actually accounts for the oddities in DNA and gene sequences. Here is some more information about it:

A second prominent proponent of panspermia was the late Nobel prize winner Professor Francis Crick, OM FRS, who along with Leslie Orgel proposed the theory of directed panspermia in 1973. This suggests that the seeds of life may have been purposely spread by an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. Crick argues that small grains containing DNA, or the building blocks of life, fired randomly in all directions is the best, most cost effective strategy for seeding life on a compatible planet at some time in the future. The strategy might have been pursued by a civilization facing catastrophic annihilation, or hoping to terraform planets for later colonization. Later, after biologists had proposed that an "RNA world" might be involved in the origin of life, Crick noted that he had been overly pessimistic about the chances of life originating on Earth.[43] See: Francis Crick.
Directed panspermia in reverse, from Earth to new solar systems, has been proposed to expand life in space.[7]For example, microbial payloads launched by solar sails at speeds up to 0.0001 c (30,000 m/s) would reach targets at 10 to 100 light-years in 0.1 million to 1 million years. Fleets of microbial capsules can be aimed at clusters of new stars in star-forming clouds where they may land on planets, or captured by asteroids and comets and later delivered to planets. Payloads may contain extremophiles for diverse environments and cyanobacteria similar to early microorganisms. Hardy multicellular organisms (rotifer cysts) may be included to induce higher evolution.[44] The probability of hitting the target zone can be calculated from where A(target) is the cross-section of the target area, dy is the positional uncertainty at arrival; a - constant (depending on units), r(target) is the radius of the target area; v the velocity of the probe; (tp) the targeting precision (arcsec/yr); and d the distance to the target (all units in SIU). Guided by high-resolution astrometry of 1×10−5 arcsec/yr, almost nearby target stars (Alpha PsA, Beta Pictoris) can be seeded by milligrams of launched microbes; while seeding the Rho Ophiochus star-forming cloud requires hundreds of kilograms of dispersed capsules.[7] The figure shows the launching of solar sail ships with effective thicknesses that will achieve final velocities as shown. The figure also shows the dispersion and capture of the microbial payload at the target solar system.
Directed panspermia is altruistic and may be motivated by life-centered “panbiotic ethics” that aims to secure and propagate our form of gene/protein organic life, and to establish life as a controlling force in nature.
Theoretically, by humans traveling to other celestial bodies such as the moon, there is a chance that they carry with them microorganisms or other organic materials ubiquitous on Earth, thus raising the curious possibility that we can seed life on other planetary bodies. The same can be said for unmanned probes manufactured on Earth. This is a concern among space researchers who try to prevent Earth contamination from distorting data, especially in regards to finding possible extraterrestrial life. Even the best sterilization techniques can not guarantee that potentially invasive biologic or organic materials will not be unintentionally carried along. So far, however, in the limited amount of space exploration conducted by humans, "terrestrial pollution" does not appear to be a problem although no concrete studies have investigated this. The harsh environments encountered throughout the rest of the solar system so far do not seem to support complex terrestrial life. However, matter exchange in form of meteor impacts has existed and will exist in the solar system even without human intervention. As evidence, some argue that anomalies found within Martian meteorite ALH 84001 indicate that bacteria could travel from planet to planet without intelligent help.
Deliberate directed panspermia would seed space objects. The securing of future life would need to balance against interference with science. This interference can be minimized by targeting remote solar systems where life would not have evolved yet. Seeding a few hundred young solar systems would secure future life while leaving billions of stars pristine for exploration.
There exists speculation on a connection to the Titius-Bode Law, arguing that Earth may have received seeds of life by directed panspermia, because the extraterrestrial senders knew that Earth belonged to a solar system with stable Titius-Bode structure.

wikipedia.org

5.Logic……Why would evolution differ from the path it took on this planet? Logic says it wouldn’t ,in fact it seems likely that evolution would follow the same path that it took on Earth to create advanced, intelligent life. It appears by our own observations that bi-pedal form is the most likely to succeed and develop into advanced life. Having two free appendages allows us(humans) to develop tools and be free to utilize the free arms for purposes other than walking.
So the logical question becomes why wouldn’t life on another Earth like planet follow the same path?Logic dictates it would! So we could have species evolving from dolphins,reptiles,insects,birds,etc.Some would state that a large brain(like we obviously see in Reptoids and Greys) is not nessicary for advanced life! I strongly disagree with that train of thought! It takes a large(1200 cc’s +) brain to be able to possess the kind of computational power,logic,reasoning,and imagination to achieve, at the very least, our current level of technology and understanding. I don’t see crows or bats flying into space, do you?

The following is the skeptical stance on Greys, which I will intercede on and input my arguments (as a believer) disputing these claims.

Continued...




[edit on 9/24/2009 by jkrog08]

The Skeptics Stance-The stance of skeptics believe that the Grey species(and all other humanoid species for that matter)is improbable. They believe that intelligent life on other planets would betotally different from any form of life we know on Earth.They believe that the chances are astronomical that an intelligent life form would develop in a bi-pedal, humanoid form. Also it should be noted that they believe that any more advanced life(more technical than humans) would see no interest in visiting a more primitive planet, kind of like you or me going to visit an ant hill! Also in the skeptical mind it is thought that the great variation of life possible would be so great that we wouldn’t likely understand it or recognize it if seen. Some arguments for this are as follows:

1.Different Gravity-Some would say that differentials in gravity would drastically change the appearance and evolution of alien creatures:

Yes because, evolution decides that in an environment where one of the variables is "weight" (connected to gravity), how large an individual of any given species CAN grow.
The reason being there is an upper limit on how much blood can be pumped "up" into the head without creating undue strain on the heart!

en.allexperts.com

So from that we can see how the type ‘A’ Greys come from a planet closer to Earths gravity,while the ‘B’ type likely come from a much lower gravity,and finally the ‘C’ type come from a much stronger gravity.

1a.Lower Than Earth Gravity-It is speculate this would create either advanced aerial beings or very tall and limber beings. In reality it would take quite a considerable difference than Earth in gravity to change anything drastically from what we see here on our planet. Even so it would still account for the ‘Type C’ Greys, or the ‘Tall Greys’.

1b.Like-Earth Gravity-Well obviously this would be the same as our planet. The only difference would be ELE’s(Extinction Level Events) and if they happened at the same time as ours did. If not than it would be highly likely that Reptilians,Insects,Dolphins,Squid,etc would become the ‘human-like’ species on this hypothetical planet.

1c.Higher Than Earth Gravity-Belief in this dictates that any species coming from this environment would be short,stocky,and muscular. Maybe so, but this falls into the fallacy of a planet being significantly higher in gravity than Earth. Even if this were true it would more than account for the short stature of Greys. Also this theory leads some to believe that intelligent life would develop in the oceans. Well this is not far from the theoretical evolutionary line of the Greys, which are widely believed to be evolved from a dolphin like species.

Here is some more…
2.Does Brain Size Matter?Some say that an equally intelligent species does not require large, human-like brain size. The skeptics’ stance is simple; the large human brain size is directly related to our species complex emotional and social processes. In reality the human emotional and social processes are directed by a very small and lizard like part of the brain:

The amygdalae (Latin, also corpus amygdaloideum, singular amygdala, from Greek αμυγδαλή, amygdalē, 'almond', 'tonsil', listed in the Gray's Anatomy as the nucleus amygdalæ)[1] are almond-shaped groups of nuclei located deep within the medial temporal lobes of the brain in complex vertebrates, including humans.[2] Shown in research to perform a primary role in the processing and memory of emotional reactions, the amygdalae are considered part of the limbic system.[3] In complex vertebrates, including humans, the amygdalae perform primary roles in the formation and storage of memories associated with emotional events. Research indicates that, during fear conditioning, sensory stimuli reach the basolateral complexes of the amygdalae, particularly the lateral nuclei, where they form associations with memories of the stimuli.Courtesy of timboucher.com
The association between stimuli and the aversive events they predict may be mediated by long-term potentiation, a lingering potential for affected synapses to react more readily.[3]
Memories of emotional experiences imprinted in reactions of synapses in the lateral nuclei elicit fear behavior through connections with the central nucleus of the amygdalae. The central nuclei are involved in the genesis of many fear responses, including freezing (immobility), tachycardia (rapid heartbeat), increased respiration, and stress-hormone release. Damage to the amygdalae impairs both the acquisition and expression of Pavlovian fear conditioning, a form of classical conditioning of emotional responses.[3]
The amygdalae are also involved in appetitive (positive) conditioning. It seems that distinct neurons respond to positive and negative stimuli, but there is no clustering of these distinct neurons into clear anatomical nuclei.[8]
Different nuclei within the amygdala have different functions in appetitive conditioning.[9]

wikipedia.org


The Believers Argument- All life in the Universe for the most part should take the same path as our planet did. Humans have become successful more than any other known species on the planet, so why would any other Earth-like planet differ? How do you dispute the numerous accounts of human-like species? Is everyone lying or insane? The believers have multiple pieces of evidence ranging from antiquity to the present to argue these facts. Also is it not possible that these beings are simply machines?Bio-mechanical entities sent afar to perform various functions. Another point I should make is that it is highly rumored that the Greys are at least a billion years more advanced than us, and due to significant, chronic genetic manipulation they are dying and are mostly all clones.

In this scenario we must also take into account that these beings would be able to completely control their environment for many millennia and therefore their bodies would not need the common functions and skeleton-muscular arrangement that non environment altering beings such as us require. Now back to the genetic manipulation and clones, that would more than account for the ‘frail’ and ‘non-feasible’ appearance of these beings.Simply, their genetic ode is corrupt and totally reliant on artificial management.

The Skeptics Argument- Any form of humanoid life other than Earth is improbable and thus highly unlikely. Any other form of life in the Universe would be totally different than us. All the people who report humanoid aliens are either lying, mentally ill, or being deceived by a hologram perpetrated by either the government (Project Bluebeam) or these advanced lifeforms.

Final Conclusions-It seems that the believers arguments have much more backup than the skeptics.If this was a court room than I believe the verdict would be in favor of the believers.There is evidence, eyewitness testimony, and logic behind the believers. While the skeptics have nothing but postulation on unknown and extremely unverifiable evidence. As it stands right now there is no logical reason to believe that accounts of humanoid ET life is farce. It seems the evidence provided for is much more than the evidence provided against.In my opinion the skeptic side HAS MUCH MORE to refute and prove than anything else.

I know that any truly neutral person would be in favor of the believer stance if looking at the evidence for and against the existence of humanoid aliens. It also appears that due to overwhelming evidence towards the appearance of ETs we must believe they are humanoid and like in appearance as accounts tell.Obviously this issue is likely not going to be resolved unless there is a disclosure or concrete proof of the existence and appearance of these beings. Thanks for rading.

History Channel’s UFO Hunters “Greys Conspiracy” clip:


Sources
ufos.about.com
wikipedia.org
en.allexperts.com


[edit on 9/24/2009 by jkrog08]

Alex the grey parrot perfect example.

Before Pepperberg's work with Alex, it was widely believed in the scientific community that birds were not intelligent and could only use words by mimicking, but Alex's accomplishments indicated that birds may be able to reason on a basic level and use words creatively.[4] Pepperberg wrote that Alex's intelligence was on a par with that of dolphins and great apes.[5] She also reported that Alex had the intelligence of a five-year-old human[3] and had not even reached his full potential by the time he died.[6] She said that the bird had the emotional level of a human two-year-old at the time of his death.[7]

en.wikipedia.org...(parrot)

A Grey parrot's brain compared to a 5 year old is a huge difference yet our Grey parrot Alex is as intelligent as a 5 year old.

That is the primary problem I have with the brain size hypothesis.

Yea,I still don't think you can say that.The parrot can't perform complex mathematical functions,can't reason in complex situations,etc.And a 5 year old human is not that smart,now if they were getting as smart as a 15 year old then we would have something,but until then we don't and a 5 year old does not qualify for a advanced species,because you must GROW and DEVELOPE to become an adult human and thus be advanced.

I think that many non believers are going on their emotional ego reaction that apart from god, they aren't the centre of the universe.
But they don't want to admit this and then try and make up logical excuses.

Quite often the very same people who are married in church have their children christened.

Conversation with a non believer

NB (Non Believer) - Aliens don't exist
B (Believer) - Yes they do
NB - Prove it
B - Prove they don't
NB - I have never seen one
B - I have never seen a polar bear, therefore polar bears don't exist
NB - But you have seen picture of them
B - Yes and you have seen pictures of aliens

and so it goes on

reply to post by jkrog08


Yes but my point was the a grey parrot (with the brain the size of a marble) has the intelligence of a 5 year old (brain the size of a tennis ball). I mean give the bird some credit, I think he deserves it!

R.I.P. Alex.

Sure they cannot perform complex functions like we can but their marble sized brain still out performs say a dog's brain or a cat's brain. Still something to be said in that.

"Alex's intelligence was on a par with that of dolphins and great apes."

I can't agree completely with that because really dolphins are smarter than we are, yet cannot do the things we can with our smaller brains. So in essence we are smarter than a bigger brained creature that is supposed to be smarter than us.

[edit on 29-4-2009 by DaMod]

I don't really have the time just now to respond fully, so this more of just a "tag" until I can get back to this later. I have a bit of a contention with your supposition that an Earth-like world would create Human-like aliens. The biggest problem you're both riding on and overlooking is complexity. Even within the same complex system, identical interactions at different times can yield strikingly different results. You're not even talking about the same system - but a similar one. Now... it's true that patterns emerge, and evolution is extremely deterministic. I've often used the example of insects, birds, and bats all evolving similar adaptations to a similar environment (a substantial atmosphere) in the form of flight. But really... look at the structure and composition of their wings. They're quite a bit different.

I think the "Grey Aliens" are possibly too similar to humans to be plausible. From what we can tell from just the physical morphology of the images - Grey Aliens are primates and are more closely related to humans than even Chimpanzees are. I've used the similar environment, similar evolutionary outcome argument before, but that was mainly to remind others to keep their imaginations in check with reality.

As for your courtroom analogy, you have to understand that truth is not determined in a courtroom. There is a huge distinction between an investigator, and a lawyer. Even if you think the evidence is there to support a victory in a court case, that doesn't mean there's enough evidence there to support the same conclusion in reality. There's plenty enough examples of guilty verdicts later being overturned by empirical evidence - such as DNA analysis.

All the eyewitness testimony and speculation in the world doesn't amount to squat in the face of empirical evidence - which is something that the UFO phenomena has really nothing to show for it. The best supporting evidence it has is a relative handful of unexplained events. Yet that's all they are - unexplained. Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence in science... because science is a way of objectively knowing about the world around us, and has no place for subjective conjecture.

WOW,really.......I thought this would get more attention,I will give it time though.

On topic,I think that the feasibility of Greys and other humanoid aliens in extremely high.If we simplify this all down to logic then we are left with an obvious answer that tels us that likely any other intelligent life in the Universe would be bi-pedal.I don't see how skeptics can argue with this,but I am willing to hear more arguments........

"Feasibility of the grey alien"

I believe that it is entirely feasible that people have had encounters with a being that has been labelled "grey alien". My belief stems from the volume of reports from differring global places that have similar content. In truth, after researching just a little bit, the certainty that something unusual IS taking place is undeniable.

However with the only 'evidence' to hand at present being the combined testimony of witnesses, or "contactees"/"abductees", it is uncertain whether these 'grey aliens' are infact aliens. Are we to take from the testimony of witnesses that the explanation they are provided with during their encounter be a truthful explanation? Put simply, how do we know that 'grey aliens' tell the truth that they are extra-terristrial.

There are also the always concerning reports of a telepathic element. How can we rely upon the experiences of people who may or may not have been subjected to some type of memory alteration? In that case, how do we know that their recollections of interaction with a 'grey alien' did in fact happen at all? Even in a court of law, having witness testimony subjected to such a question will tend to shade things with less credibility.

All physical evidence appears to be highly suspect, and I tend to think this is because of the fantastical nature of the subject. So far the only physical evidence that supports a possible alien presence in my mind is the work by Dr Leir on implant removal and analysis. Again this is the removal of a foreign object, with highly unusual characteristics. These objects in no way prove or disprove the 'grey alien' theory, and could be considered irrelevant in the attempt to prove 'grey aliens'.

So are "grey aliens" feasible? I suggest that a grey humaniod creature is feasible, but there are so many conflicting explanations for Where this being originated from that the "alien" part appears to be more in question than the suggestion that people have had an experience with a grey humanoid creature.

For instance, two theories suggest that a better question would be to ask from When? For the theory goes that grey humanoids are really the degenerated form of the human species some X amount of time in our perceivable time-linear future. Another question would be from what Dimension? I believe the question explains the theory.

Are these theories any more or less feasible than to suggest that these grey humanoid creatures originated and/or evolved on a distant planet?

Dr Roger Leir's website
Interdimension Universe: The new science of UFO's, Paranormal Phenomena, and Otherdimensional Beings by Philip J. Imbrogno
Could Aliens Just be Humans from the Future?

reply to post by azurecara


Good post,and your options are possible.Really the only options that seem bogus is the fact that they dont exist at all!I have heard quite a bit on the "time traveling grey theory",and know people who support it.But to say that a grey-like et is not possible is just ridiculous(Im sure you agree).

You really shouldn't get me started on the subject of possible things - I could wax philosophical for hours about it. Suffice it to say, that I believe the possibile is an infinite and varied field that encompasses any and all ideas.

Things that are plausible and probable I consider to be quite different indeed. So I would never say that a grey-like ET is impossible. I would go so far as to say that it cannot even be considered to be unlikely or improbable based on the sheer amount of similar stories I have read from contactees/abductees.

As a theory I believe that it should be considered equally valid and likely as the others I have mentioned before.

There are so many seemingly insurmountable obstacles to be overcome in researching in this area. Not least of which I shall illustrate with this extract from :

Good, Timothy, 'Alien Base Earth's Encounters with Extraterrestrials', Century Random House, London, 1998, pp72.

Daniel W. Fry is conversing with his Alien contact who identified himself as 'Alan'.

... If we were to appear as members of a superior race, coming from 'above' to lead the people of your world, our arrival would seriously disrupt the ego balance of your society. Tens of millions of your people, in their desperate need to avoid being demoted to second place in the universe, would go to any lengths to disprove, or simply deny, our existence. If we took steps to force the acceptance of our reality upon their consciousness, about 30 per cent of the people would insist upon considering us as Gods, and would attempt to place upon us all responsibility for their own welfare. This is a responsibility we would not be permitted to assume, even if we were able to discharge it... Most of the remaining 70 per cent would adopt the belief that we were planning to enslave their world, and many would begin to seek means to destroy us. If any great and lasting good is to come from our efforts, they must be led by your own people, or at least by those who are accepted as such...

To me this was the nutshell of the problem at large. No matter which theory is the correct, or the most correct, the fact remains that they have not publicly declared their presence to the world. Researching this elusive phenomena, whilst not impossible is fraught with difficulties, not least of which seems to be finding them!!

If you wish to argue the ET origin of the 'grey-aliens' then I would further have to give weight to the Intervention Theory of human evolution - this would seem more logical to me, and would eliminate alot of the gulf between the theory that two extremely similar beings could co-evolve on physically seperate planets, and the 'greys' being somehow related (either distant past or future) to the human race.

I have to say I was hoping for a better debate over this issue,especially with some of the sites better known skeptics(Armap,Nohup,Nablator) and of course Gorman91 and others........

Anyways maybe this is more of an informative type thread?!

Since the Grey has been here since the beginning of time and they consider Earth their's I would say with them and other beings being able to survive here and elsewhere in this Universe they should be considered Terrestrial just as they should be considered Extraterrestrial.



[edit on 2-5-2009 by observe50]

Observe,what exactly do you mean by they are our creators?Did they engineer us?

5.Logic……Why would evolution differ from the path it took on this planet? Logic says it wouldn’t ,in fact it seems likely that evolution would follow the same path that it took on Earth to create advanced, intelligent life. It appears by our own observations that bi-pedal form is the most likely to succeed and develop into advanced life. Having two free appendages allows us(humans) to develop tools and be free to utilize the free arms for purposes other than walking.

To play devil's advocate...
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't logic say that evolution would be different from planet to planet? Since evolution is based on environmental factors, the grey's planet would have to be very similar to ours in order for them to have evolved in the same way as we have.

I was talking about how bi pedal life developed technologically here,due to our free limbs.Also evolution does depend on environment,but you must remember most planets with intelligent life will likely be a near replica of Earth.Sure the planet could be smaller or larger(thus more or less gravity).But that doesn't stop bi pedal life from forming,IMHO.

Originally posted by jkrog08
Also evolution does depend on environment,but you must remember most planets with intelligent life will likely be a near replica of Earth.Sure the planet could be smaller or larger(thus more or less gravity).But that doesn't stop bi pedal life from forming,IMHO.

Why are planets with intelligent life likely to be a near replica of Earth? Am genuinely curious as to your logic behind this opinion.

I agree that it doesn't stop bi pedal life from forming , however I'm unsure as to how, given the infinite possible planetary conditions, and surface environments to be found, that there aren't many other forms of life other than bi pedal. By that reasoning I could surely expect there to be other forms of intelligent sentient life that is not bi pedal - the ratio though is unknowable currently. (bi pedal:non bi pedal)

Because you have whats called the "habitable zone",a certain range outside of a star that life as we know it could develop.Why bipedal?Well if it were an ocean only planet then no bi-pedal life would form.If it was a gas giant planet then only aerial life would form.So the point I was making was that any bipedal life form would likely have to be on a very Earth-like planet.

reply to post by jkrog08


Ah!

I would have to agree with you then. Bi pedal intelligent life could very easily come from an Earth-like planet. Is your opinion that grey aliens are an independently evolved life form from another planet? Or have you a different theory?

I'm asking for an opinion for anyone else reading, not a verifiable fact-based proof of existence!

Is your opinion that grey aliens are an independently evolved life form from another planet?

Yes,that is my theory.Specifically from somewhere in the Orion constellation or the Zeta Reticuli region.Although I believe they originated from only one of those places,an have since branched out to colonize other systems.From what I have heard and read their system of origin is somewhere in Orion.Also I have heard that the three main types all developed on the same planet(I have heard also on other planets in their system,as well near by stars,but again logic would say that any similar looking species would develop in the same environment),then went their separate ways,although they are still in a 'confederation' type government.Of course some questions still have to be raised in regards to the different heights of the beings in respect to gravity and other issues.Although I believe that they are evolved in more of an insect like cast system,with the shorter ones being workers and warriors,while the 'talls' being the scientists,leaders,etc.