Nazi Germany Military Projects

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by sy.gunson

During July 1944 Heisenberg was visited in Berlin by Maj Bernd von Brauchitisch, Goering’s adjutant, with a report that the German legation in Lisbon had learned of an American threat to drop an Atomic Bomb on Dresden during the next six weeks if germany did not sue for peace in some way before then. source: Irving, David. Virus House. p.283

Irving is a known revisionist and Holocaust denier. As such any views he has are very suspect. So this supposed threat was completely useless not only did the Allies not have a nuclear weapon, making such a threat and not carrying through with it, would only embolden the Germans as it showed the Allies did not have a weapon. The threat makes no sense and there is no corroboration for it.

Irving may have drawn wrong conclusions from his research, but his data is meticulously researched.

Irving is not the only source that Churchill threatened an anthrax attack on germany. I have cited other sources for the claim therefore you are merely practising your usual form of sneering dismissal without listening to the facts.

The project was known under the code name Operation Vegitarian Details of the wartime secret operation are contained in a series of War Office files (WO 188) at the Public Record Office in KEW.

British "Operation Vegetarian", had been in development since 1942, and was ready to go. Britain manufactured five million anthrax laced "cattle cakes" and planned to drop them on Germany in 1944. The aim of Churchill's "Operation Vegetarian" was to wipe out the German beef and dairy herds and then see the bacterium spread to the human population.

Vegetarian was led by Dr. Paul Fildes, director of the biology department at Porton Down near Salisbury in Wiltshire. The British work on anthrax, or "N" as it was code-named, in the weapon form led (1943) to the design of an "N" bomb suitable for mass production by we Americans. Each particular set of munitions weighed 1.8 kilograms (4 pounds). 106 of these "bomblets" were to be packed into a 225 kilogram (500 pound) cluster-bomb canister and dropped over Nazi population and dairy production centers. There was a second delivery method which would have been even more effective. That was to separate the small "bomblets" out of the cluster bomb, and disperse them out of the flare tubes as the planes returned from normal bombing runs at night. This would insure wide distribution of the cakes, and save on time/weight, and possible discovery by the Nazis as an intentional attack.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Irving may have drawn wrong conclusions from his research, but his data is meticulously researched.

Very wrong there, remember,

"Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. ... if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian"
www.holocaustdenialontrial.org...

also the Judges summing up

"Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism"[

So nothing Irving has written canbe trusted

Originally posted by sy.gunson

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by sy.gunson

During July 1944 Heisenberg was visited in Berlin by Maj Bernd von Brauchitisch, Goering’s adjutant, with a report that the German legation in Lisbon had learned of an American threat to drop an Atomic Bomb on Dresden during the next six weeks if germany did not sue for peace in some way before then. source: Irving, David. Virus House. p.283

Irving is a known revisionist and Holocaust denier. As such any views he has are very suspect. So this supposed threat was completely useless not only did the Allies not have a nuclear weapon, making such a threat and not carrying through with it, would only embolden the Germans as it showed the Allies did not have a weapon. The threat makes no sense and there is no corroboration for it.

Irving may have drawn wrong conclusions from his research, but his data is meticulously researched.

Irving is not the only source that Churchill threatened an anthrax attack on germany. I have cited other sources for the claim therefore you are merely practising your usual form of sneering dismissal without listening to the facts.

I am well aware of the British biological weapons program during WW2 and am probably more well versed than you in all aspects of CBW being researched and weaponized in WW2. I am merely pointing out the ridiculous assertion you made about Churchill threatening to use anthrax as a direct response to a German nuclear attack. That is the problem there was never any threat made in relation to a potential Nazi nuclear attack.

Please stop twisting the facts.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
reply to post by 21cdb

 

No the real truth is that in late July 1944 Churchill was quite alarmed by reading ULTRA decrypts and expected an imminent nuclear attack by V-1 rockets. He let Hitler know through Antonescu, that Britain would respond to nuclear attack with Anthrax.

Roosevelt also warned Hitler through Lisbon that unless Hitler sued for peace within 6 weeks, B-29s would drop an Atomic Bomb on Dresden.

Hitler called off his plans and began to negotiate. In october 1944 USA agreed to Hitler's demand to protect Germany from the Bolsheviks, but later, the Allies recanted on Hitler's proposal. The western Allies however humoured Hitler long enough to nulify Germany's ability to wage nuclear or Chemical warfare.

Now all that you have stated there is pure fiction and has absolutely no historical backing at all. This is why people view your posts with disdain, not only are you ignoring basic physics principles in the supposed German design you are also rewriting history. There were no B-29's in the European theater, there were certainly no nuclear weapons available for use and intercepts never mentioned anything to do with a German nuclear attack.

The book "Vengeance Hitler's Nuclear Weapon Fact or Fiction" by Philip Henshall goes
into V1 and V2 silo installations in France and a pre NASA tracking station for the
V2. One manager worked on the Moon Mission was eventually sent back to Germany
by the end of the 80s. The 69 to 89 run from the mission was not enough to hold him.
Other topics touched were nuclear that never came up with any bombs people say
the Nazis made instead of America and some reference to submarine and missile
launch threat that was also dismissed so where was the Vengeance. Not going too
far away from uncompleted project like air to surface or air to air missiles if I recall
rightly the exotic Foo was never attributed to the Nazi plans even though US intel
must have been busy with ex Nazi intel hiding those along with records of nuclear bombs
along with other leads we have yet to uncover. He had one suspicious note that Japan had
Korea develop their atomic weapons made me think why North Korea has that ability in the
in the first place and why people think the Nazi atomic development took place in another
country perhaps Norway along with the Nazi occupation use as a sub base.
ED: Makes me think engineers make such terrifying things like submarines and rockets
that countries make armies just to control them. Perhaps why Tesla's proposals to the
government and Navy went without completion and got hidden away in 1943.

reply to post by longbow


Longbow says

Don't overestimate german technology. And to all people who think Germans and Japan could beat US with their super technology in WWII just one word - NUKE.

I say don't underestimate Nazi technology.

The US tactical nuke developed in 1952 is founded on a concept developed by Nazi scientists Schumann and Trinks in 1942. Declassified signals and affidavits have come to light in recent years that disclose three underground nuclear bomb tests in the Schwabian Alps two in July and one in August 1943, followed by another at Rugen in October 1944 independently witnessed by a pilot named Zinnser and on the ground by an italian correspondent named Romersa sent by Mussolini specifically to monitor the nuclear weapons test. This test also had a third independent verification in a MAGIC decrypt of a signal from the Japanese embassy at Stockholm in December 1944. This signal decrypt from NARA RG 38 recounts information from Japanese witnesses to a super bomb which the signal called a uranium atom disintegrator of devastating destructiveness.
There are also other reports of Nazi nuke tests at Ohrdruf in March 1945 and finally let us not forget the account of military intelligence investigator David Snell from Korea after VJ day, that the Japanese test blasted their own nuke at an island near Wuson in August 1945.

The truth is in July 1944 Churchill threatened Hitler via Roumanian opposition groups that he would use the RAF to drop Anthrax all over Germany. Hitler had no answer to this as Germany lacked antibiotics.

USA also sent a top secret B-29 bomber to England in May 1944 for a promotional tour and let it be known through the German legation in Lisbon that Dresden would be nuked unless Hitler sued for peace within 6 weeks.

The truth of why germany lost has nothing to do with American nuclear superiority.

Hitler was terrified of Anthrax

Nazi technology was light years ahead of American technology before, during and after WW2. Indeed America grew powerful on the backs of captured nazi scientists and train loads of Nazi patents delivered to the train marshalling yards at Linz from their repositories in Silesia by none other than Kammler.

USA spent the next four decades merely copying and refining nazi inventions.

reply to post by sy.gunson


Most anybody can see that the USA has benefitted enormously from Nazi aeronautics, to the point where many of our planes were mere copies of German craft made decades before.

Please keep this thread going.

Originally posted by mad scientist
Now all that you have stated there is pure fiction and has absolutely no historical backing at all. This is why people view your posts with disdain, not only are you ignoring basic physics principles in the supposed German design you are also rewriting history. There were no B-29's in the European theater, there were certainly no nuclear weapons available for use and intercepts never mentioned anything to do with a German nuclear attack.

The B-29 serial # 41-36963 was sent to England, but I will excuse your ignorance of the true facts. I don't expect you will ever apologise but that's okay because i can live with being the better man. Here are some photos of that aircraft in England:





Quote from the following URL

In March 1944 a B-29 (41-36963) was diverted to the UK until it returned to the USA on May 10th. Purpose of the visit was evaluation by 8th AF technical staff and to let German intelligence believe that deployment of B-29's to Britain was imminent. The plane visited Glatton and Knettishall during its stay. Interestingly, this B-29 was finished in OD / NG. It did not carry any markings except the national markings and S/N. Source: The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Roger A. Freeman and several magazine articles I don't recall specifically.

The Mighty Eigth War Manual

B-29 deployment to England

And here a claim that it was sighted as it overflew Austria in early 1944

B-29 over Austria 1944

As for intercepts warning of Nuclear and CBW attacks by Germany I suggest you consult OSS Report A-44 316, report 5985 of 7 November 1944.

Also the signals decrypt "Stockholm to Tokyo:” No.232.9; December 1944 [War Department], National Archives, (records group) RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978. It recounts the use of nuclear weapons against the Soviets in 1943 and talks about a Uranium disintegrator bomb of devastating effect.

and this may be something to upset your deeply ingrained beliefs too:

“Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb.”
This file is located as Top Secret Naval Attache Reports 1944-1947," NARA Records Group: RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c, in which is cited the affidavit of Peenemunde artillery observer pilot Hans Zinsser; obtained by A.P.I.U. (Ninth Air Force) 96/1945 APO 696, U.S. Army, 19 August 1945." The report is classified secret. In that report Zinsser recall being witness to an atomic blast.

As for people viewing my posts with disdain a small clique can't stand me i agree and you are one of those, however I also get applause from moderators in my private mail and people from all over the globe including published authors seek me out cor commentary and advice. People who read what I write frequently contact me with compliments and ask me to add them on Facebook so I can live with a handful of brittle, bitter people attacking me. The more you attack me the more attention I get so carry on... be my guest

:?)

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Most anybody can see that the USA has benefitted enormously from Nazi aeronautics, to the point where many of our planes were mere copies of German craft made decades before.

Please keep this thread going.

Hattori

Since you are interested a couple of years ago I was in contact with a Polish Professor of Architecture Prof Moldova I think was his name. He was an inmate of Gross Rosen Kz Camp and worked at Furstenstein Castle. He told me whilst he was there in 44/45 there was an astronaut training school within the castle with some kind of flight simulator for A-9 rocket.

Just thought I might share.

reply to post by sy.gunson


Years ago, I saw a photograph of Dr. Von Braun standing next to an enormous rocket motor in an underground bunker in Germany.

I have always been interested in this stuff, my grandfather was actually deeply involved in the de-Nazification program after WWII, adjusting the Project Paperclip scientists to American life. He knew Dr. Von Braun personally and did not care for him one bit!

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Years ago, I saw a photograph of Dr. Von Braun standing next to an enormous rocket motor in an underground bunker in Germany.

I have always been interested in this stuff, my grandfather was actually deeply involved in the de-Nazification program after WWII, adjusting the Project Paperclip scientists to American life. He knew Dr. Von Braun personally and did not care for him one bit!

Von Braun knowingly profited by the efforts of slave labour both at Penemunde and at Mittelwerke Dora where many thousands were worked to death. Von Braun had no remorse or sympathy for those people and had an arrogance about him.

I really think it is shameful that he was able to walk away from all responsibility for what he caused. He planned the A-9/A-10 Amerika rocket to attack USA before Germany was even at war with USA. That in itself betrays a callousness about him. I don't think he was ever truly de-Nazified. Merely that he just learned to say the right things to give the right impressions in polite society.

We'd all be speaking German if all those experiments became reality. They would have wretched control of the skies and would of dominated in land based combat scenarios.

Nazi Zombies? Genetically engineered super soldiers? Aliens?

Do you have any source on this other than "ancient aliens" tv show, video games, or movies?

The Nazis certainly practiced eugenics and selective breeding but definitely NOT genetic engineering. The use of Eugenics was also widely practiced in the USA in the 1920's and 1930's. Selective breeding is a far cry from genetic engineering.

There has been quite a few conspiracy theories about Nazis being helped by aliens during and before World War 2, but the evidence shows that the Nazi rocket program was built up in steps from basic rocketry to advanced rocketry, if they had alien help surely they would have just jumped straight to the advanced stuff?

Nuclear reactors were also being used by the Nazis to develop a nuclear bomb on top of the A10 rocket that would have been capable of hitting New York or Washington DC, but again, this was developed in well documented stages just like tech is developed today. Allied bombing raids set back Nazi rocket programs YEARS and the famous Norwegian commando attack on the heavy water facility in Norway essentially wiped out the Nazi nuclear program. Again, if aliens were involved in Nazi tech, why not just give them a bomb?

Most Nazi advances were made possible with the help of slave labour. Medical advances were made possible with the use of involuntary human test subjects pulled from the labor camps, all fully documented, you need to read up on Dr Mengele if you think aliens had a hand in this.

Originally posted by babybunnies
Nazi Zombies? Genetically engineered super soldiers? Aliens?

Do you have any source on this other than "ancient aliens" tv show, video games, or movies?

The Nazis certainly practiced eugenics and selective breeding but definitely NOT genetic engineering. The use of Eugenics was also widely practiced in the USA in the 1920's and 1930's. Selective breeding is a far cry from genetic engineering.

There has been quite a few conspiracy theories about Nazis being helped by aliens during and before World War 2, but the evidence shows that the Nazi rocket program was built up in steps from basic rocketry to advanced rocketry, if they had alien help surely they would have just jumped straight to the advanced stuff?

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't believe in Aliens, UFOs or any of that tripe. I never raised any such claim.

However Professor Moldova is still alive in Wroclaw Poland and I was in contact with him in 2010. He was an inmate of Gross Rosen and worked at Furstenstein castle on Projekt Reise. This is all fact and his recollections of the Nazi astronaut training school are sharp.

You should Google Rudisleben or Polte II factory to learn more about Nazi development of an Amerika rocket in 1945.

The V2 and the German, Russian and American Rocket Program, by C. Reuter

Nuclear reactors were also being used by the Nazis to develop a nuclear bomb on top of the A10 rocket that would have been capable of hitting New York or Washington DC, but again, this was developed in well documented stages just like tech is developed today.

The A10 was nothing more than the booster or first stage. The A9 was the delivery vehicle.

No they did not develop a nuclear reactor. They attempted to but failed on several attempts. The Nazis however did create several low aspect ratio particle accelerators which were later copied and renamed Tokamaks by the Soviets.



With these 18 MeV machines they were able to obtain fissile material. As Dornberger himself said in the presence of hidden microphones at CSDIC camp 11, the V-2 project was intended for more than just a ton of high explosives.

Allied bombing raids set back Nazi rocket programs YEARS and the famous Norwegian commando attack on the heavy water facility in Norway essentially wiped out the Nazi nuclear program.

Wrong again the Vermork plant was never put out of action for more than a few weeks and actually tipped off the Germans that the Allies knew of their nuclear project. It cause the Germans (Harteck, Suess and Wirtz) to have the entire stock of heavy water shipped to Germany. Harteck disclosed after the war that they knew in advance of plans to sink the ferry so sent the most highly concentrated heavy water by truck convoy. The lowly concentrated Dueterium on the ferry according to Prof Harteck was merely a decoy. Wirtz was unaware of the switched plans and when a few drums of lowly concentrated water were salvaged from the ferry and arrived at his lab, he was so surprised at the poor concentration that he asked Harteck why they bothered. It was only then that Wirtz learned the bulk of the Heavy water was in fact safe.

Harteck and Suess had the entire Vermork (Haber-Bosch process) distilation plant and it's sister plant at Saheim in the next valley disassembled and the machinery re-installed in Germany between Hamburg and Bremen. I have corresponded with the grandson of Kz inmate Stefan Strzelczyk. His granfather worked in the re-established heavy water plant. Kammler's Evacuation Kommando was tasked with executing all concentration camp prisoners who had worked on these nuclear projects to eliminate witnesses. Strzelczyk managed to escape execution and hide until the war ended.

In addition to Norway's Vermork Plant which seems to be the only one you are aware of there were several other Nazi heavy water plants which you have never heard of, for example:

1) Saheim (Haber-Bosch process) Norway (Vermork's sister plant)
2) Montecantini heavy water plant at Merano, Italy (near Bolzano)
3) Munich Plant (Clusius-Linde, Nernst Distribution Process)
4) Hamburg Plant (Harteck low pressure distilation process)
5) Leuna plant south of Mersberg near Berlin (Harteck/Suess process - codename Stalin Organ)
6) Kiel Plant 4 km outside Kiel, wooded area (Dr K Geib’s hydrogen sulphide exchange process)



Of course Nazi developments were created in steps, however you don't seem to have kept up with all their steps, thus in no position to judge.

reply to post by sweatmonicaIdo


It seems to me your question is not reasonable. You see, when one country makes an advancement, and the opposing country finds out about it, the opposing country begins developing its own advance weapon similar or better than the original.

What you are saying in your question, without actually saying it, is that Nazi Germany developes all these strange new weapons in total isolation. This never happens. So in this respeact you question is not reasonable ..... meaning unrealistic.

Also, when conflict breaks out into opean war, countries begin developing new weapons that were on the back burner because in peace times there is no need and because money is (tax dollars) are spent on social projects. So you did not figure this into your thinking. Again, your question is not reasonable.

Also what about spying. Look how successful Russia was in getting atomic secrets. Your question does not take this into account either. Again, your question is not reasonable.

What you have done is asked a question about an idealized situation that just never comes about. At best, the Nazi Germany you describe in your question would have a technological advantage at the start of a war. In fact Nazi Germany as it actually existed DID have a technological advantage at the start of WWII, and you know how it turned out.

One other thing. In your question you did not take into consideration that the US may hve recovered its own UFO and developed its own weapons.

Perhaps Germany learned their lesson that the most important control is not physical but psychological.

Right now Germany, with the Euro, is set to be in control of most of Europe. Control the money and you can control the people.

This thread has a lot of false information.

• The German military only had ONE type of aircraft people might consider an "UFO" that used electromagnetism for lift. The other plans other than the rotor one never saw the light of day.

• They were indeed ahead in terms of the nuke, but with so many factors like scientists being coerced, killed, as well as a slew of bad financial issues and decisions bringing the project to ruin, it didn't come to fruition, fortunately.

• As for "zombies?" They only worked on ways to keep soldier alive, not bring them back to life. (see the headless dog videos as an example - Youtube?) The "back to life" studies were largely based around mysticism and unexplored technologies that could all be thought of as shots out into the dark.

• Lastly, Germany fell for more than the few reasons listed here in the thread, but the one that outweighs all other reasons, was simply logistics. This is why no nation is currently "trying to take over the world." Easy enough to go out there, attack and destroy. But to occupy a nation afterwards, and increase your finanaces in the meantime (that's even with NO losses), is nearly impossible. The only reason they were able to do so much as they did was largely in part to the money derived from stealing (confiscated $ from the jews alone paid for 30% of the war effort), museums, and simply deceiving others with false promises of repayment.

These days the U.S. is so far ahead in it's research studies that it's almost as if the bullet is being invented before the gun. Other techs have to catch up to some before they can even work. In the meantime though, you don't have to take my word for it but what's available now in real life, is FAR scarier than fiction.

Just wanted to share these notes.

All the best~

Originally posted by Daughter2
Perhaps Germany learned their lesson that the most important control is not physical but psychological.

Right now Germany, with the Euro, is set to be in control of most of Europe. Control the money and you can control the people.

With the Euro losing all of it's value, this isn't likely to happen.
But hey, who knows, right?

Originally posted by babybunnies
Nazi Zombies? Genetically engineered super soldiers? Aliens?

Do you have any source on this other than "ancient aliens" tv show, video games, or movies?

The Nazis certainly practiced eugenics and selective breeding but definitely NOT genetic engineering. The use of Eugenics was also widely practiced in the USA in the 1920's and 1930's. Selective breeding is a far cry from genetic engineering.

There has been quite a few conspiracy theories about Nazis being helped by aliens during and before World War 2, but the evidence shows that the Nazi rocket program was built up in steps from basic rocketry to advanced rocketry, if they had alien help surely they would have just jumped straight to the advanced stuff?

Nuclear reactors were also being used by the Nazis to develop a nuclear bomb on top of the A10 rocket that would have been capable of hitting New York or Washington DC, but again, this was developed in well documented stages just like tech is developed today. Allied bombing raids set back Nazi rocket programs YEARS and the famous Norwegian commando attack on the heavy water facility in Norway essentially wiped out the Nazi nuclear program. Again, if aliens were involved in Nazi tech, why not just give them a bomb?

Most Nazi advances were made possible with the help of slave labour. Medical advances were made possible with the use of involuntary human test subjects pulled from the labor camps, all fully documented, you need to read up on Dr Mengele if you think aliens had a hand in this.

edit on 7-3-2012 by babybunnies because: (no reason given)

Show me proof of a single instance where i have ever asserted anything to do with Aliens....

I do not believe or assert the existence of intelligent aliens intervening with historical events at all....and never have. Where i have discussed foo fighters I have acknowledged that something like 325 incidents of Allied airmen who witnessed the phenomenon might be explained by plasma discharges from particle beam weapons one of which was captured by General Patton's army at Burggrub on 14 April 1945.

My source is Waloshek's biography of Nazi plasma physicist Rolf Wideroe.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Irving may have drawn wrong conclusions from his research, but his data is meticulously researched.

Very wrong there, remember,

"Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. ... if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian"
www.holocaustdenialontrial.org...

also the Judges summing up

"Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism"[

So nothing Irving has written canbe trusted

This is your what your link to Holocaust denial has to say:

Holocaust Denial on Trial
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