Has space and matter always been?

Accidental double post.

[edit on 28/4/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

The word creator can be misleading for me anyways...because it begs the idea that something can come from nothing...without order...without cause and effect...and I have extreme issues with that. Just because there is a 'God' force, divine energy that is infinite ect....does not mean that God 'thinks' things into creation from nothing...I see God as more of a force that follows a natural order, like the water, winds, fire, ect....not so much a 'decider' but yet a 'filler' of al things.

Read Spinoza. You'll find a kindred spirit who can give intellectual rigor and consistency to these ideas.

Originally posted by harrytuttle
Observe beyond big bang, one can not. Ye have no choice but to philosophize. Logic requires not an observation, but a thought.

Ye be right in this, save that to philosophize be not necessary. Time itself did not exist before the universe came in to being. There need have been no 'before' to philosophize about. I understand the ape brain finds it hard to handle the concept of nontemporality, but this ape has managed it, so I daresay it's possible for you, too.

reply to post by Astyanax


Or it's a nonsense idea and the Big Bang is the bullocks attempt of humanities to make everything else finite like himself.

reply to post by Astyanax


Hi ya Astyanax,


Could it not be possible the there has always been a order for the infinite energy...our Universe is just the off-spring/emanation/made in the image of------the manifestation prior to this now?

If there has always been a order....and never a true beginning for ALL orders, but only flow from one to the next....time in some way of our term for thought would of always been. Meaning... if there is order...one can observe a 'time'. The largest model for this 'time' would be the collapsing/emanating of one order to another.

I am no genius with science-so I might not make any sense-but I so love to think about it in my simple vocabulary.

Is this the same problem with the chicken and the egg question? Truly a circle of thoughts. Im enjoying the convos going on here...others thoughts help me 'think' lol.

Peace
LV

reply to post by Melyanna Tengwesta


Hi ya Melyanna,

You brought up the idea that our senses deceive us...and I just wanted to add something about my mothers NDE she had last year. All of her senses....sensed heaven/afterlife/another dimension (what ever one wants to call it). She tasted fruit, she smelled sweet savors, she felt things, held things, climbed a tree and walked down a long stairway.....and heard angels singing. The most amusing experience of sense she had to me was the climbing a tree to get a fruit and tasting the fruit, all the while I was watching her with her eyes closed, making climbing motions with her hands and arms, then holding the fruit with her hands, and smiling while she was seeming to bite and chew. Her having a great sense of smell was curious to me too.

I know those experiences are proof of anything, just thought it was a neat add for what you mentioned.

Peace,
LV

Hindi say the Universe is just Dharma's dream. I'd like to see some Christian prove 'em wrong

Originally posted by rhinoceros
Hindi say the Universe is just Dharma's dream. I'd like to see some Christian prove 'em wrong

I wonder what happens when Dharma wakes up

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

Originally posted by rhinoceros
Hindi say the Universe is just Dharma's dream. I'd like to see some Christian prove 'em wrong

I wonder what happens when Dharma wakes up

His dreams last like 10s of billions of years. Anyways when he wakes up the Universe ends. Then when he goes back to bed a new Universe begins.

This is a good thread so far...I see a lot of the same members on here that frequent other threads related to this topic.

On topic now,I think that you(OP) must understand that sound is only propagated inside of a pressurized environment(ie;Earths atmosphere) since sound is a compression wave.Electromagnetic waves,like light can propagate anywhere,such as space(near vacuum).So it is true that "in space no one can here you scream"(lol),all those battles you see on star wars and star trek with all the laser sounds and explosions would be completely silent in space(for real).

As far as the "vibrations" I (and others I presume) are talking of the very vibration of energy/matter itself.........no sound involved,these vibrations create different forms of matter and energy,as well(theoretically) dimensions,although dimensions would be more related to membrane (multi-dimensional string)activity I would say.That is what I think dictates and separates everything in reality,including one "phase" from the other.Other universes are separated by the oscillations of these strings and branes IMO.Also all the matter and reactions are caused by these as well IMO.What we conceive as "ball shaped" protons,neutrons,bosons,mesons,etc.Is nothing more than different levels of string vibrations by closed strings(looped strings).

As far as the pressure issue........I am not sure where some posters intend to go with that,as pressure does not exist in a vacuum in any sufficient amounts(since space is not a perfect vacuum some very smallamounts exist)Maybe some are confusing "pressure" with "weight" and "volume" caused by high mass?

en.wikipedia.org...

fantastic thread my mind feels fried after reading it

this link about quantum suicide is great its something i have never come across before,very interesting thanks to the poster

Let's not forget that string theory and M theory and all that other junk is fringe theory... Call it the creative writing of Science.

All of this fringe theory came about because Einsteinian Physics (used to describe the mechanics of the cosmos) do not work on the subatomic level; and Quantum Physics (used to explain subatomic mechanics) doesn't apply to the cosmos at all.

So, being inquisitive and imaginative and impatient creatures, we Humans are striving to build a bridge between Einsteinian and Quantum Physics, inventing explanations that have no basis in any reality we know — hence fringe theory.

I mean, we have more physical evidence from the Book of Genesis than the evidence provided by string theory. That's how far-out string theory is. When discussing string theory or M theory or any of the other fringe theory, you may as well be discussing magic, because these theories make some pretty supernatural suggestions.

For instance, we're presented with the suggestion that a particle on one side of the universe can resonate identically with a particle on the other side of the universe, potentially transferring information over incomprehensible distances instantaneously, rendering Einstein's lightspeed obsolete. Taken a step further, one particle may anticipate information transferral, receiving information before it is sent. Precognition?

I think that this grey area between Einsteinian and Quantum Physics is where Science and Spirituality will eventually meet on common ground. I think the Human mind is a very delicate Quantum computer, equally capable of perceiving information from beyond our 4 dimensional Universe and dealing with the more mundane computations and routines of daily living.

How does all this pertain to the OP? Well, I think we possess an innate knowledge of the origin and age of the Universe — I think our Human minds are tapped into the answers to all such questions, and these answers are somewhere between Science and Spirituality.

— Doc Velocity







[edit on 4/29/2009 by Doc Velocity]

The More the Metaverse

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Could it not be possible the there has always been a order for the infinite energy... our Universe is just the off-spring/emanation/made in the image of------the manifestation prior to this now?

May we try to define what we're talking about a little more strictly?

This may help:

Originally posted by jkrog08
I and others... are talking of the very vibration of energy/matter itself... these vibrations create different forms of matter and energy, as well as (theoretically), dimensions. Although dimensions would be more related to membrane (multi-dimensional string) activity I would say.

That is what I think dictates and separates everything in reality... Other universes are separated by the oscillations of these strings and branes IMO. Also all the matter and reactions are caused by these as well IMO.

What we conceive as... protons, neutrons, bosons, mesons, etc., is nothing more than different levels of string vibrations by closed (i.e. looped) strings.

Lightly edited for readability with apologies to jkrog

jkrog08 is explaining how, according to string and 'brane' theory, the four-dimensional universe we apprehend is one of many in a 'multiiverse' of more than four (the number now generally given is eleven) dimensions, and that these universes may be caused by physical interactions between things (unimaginable things) in this 11-dimensional multiiverse*.

So, when you conceive that

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
...there has always been a order... and never a true beginning for ALL orders, but only flow from one to the next... time in some way of our term for though would of always been. Meaning... if there is order... one can observe a 'time'. The largest model for this 'time' would be the collapsing/emanating of one order to another.

you could think of an eternal and infinite 'multiverse' containing something like 10 to the power of 500 universes. Apparently that's the number of possible string theories, each of which defines a different universe. Perhaps matter and energy, or something analogous to them, or something more fundamental we don't even have a name for, can flow between and among this family of universes in the multiverse, even as they form, develop and dissipate.

However, this does not rid us of...

...the chicken and the egg question

...and here we come to my personal problem with string theories and other concepts of physics that propose multiple dimensions. Not only are they unfalsifiable - certainly at present and probably for ever - but they don't give us useful answers to any of the questions we really want to ask.

It is worthwhile asking what difference it makes. Maybe the world (I mean 'reality') has existed for ever. Maybe 13.7 billion years is forever, since that takes us back to the beginning of time. Maybe there was something before the universe, but not in this universe. Maybe eternity is the same as nothing, as Buddhism teaches. Where does that leave us?

Personally, I find the world that is actually spread out before me for my delectation both fascinating and mysterious. There's plenty in it to keep me interested for the rest of my life. But I don't think explanations of its mysteries that invoke even greater mysteries are particularly useful, or even legitimate. That is why I am as uncomfortable with string and brane theory as I am with religion and metaphysics.

Truly a circle of thoughts.

You said it.

Im enjoying the convos going on here...others thoughts help me 'think' lol.

Great stuff.
*I really hate the word, incidentally. It's a cheap coinage in every possible sense. I prefer 'metaverse', and hereby occupy the word on behalf of science before some lairy metaphysician makes off with it.

[edit on 29/4/09 by Astyanax]

I just want to send a thanks to all for helping me sift through my thoughts and allowing me to enjoy yours as well! I wish I had more to add....but I dont. I still think that there was never a true beginning like what some want to think.....but it is only a assumption, feeling, whatever...it just seems logical to me.

I also want to note that some said that we are going to see a time of science and spirituality mixing....I think that is the truth and totally agree.

I would love to keep this thread open for any new ideas or thoughts-

Peace to all-
LV

reply to post by Astyanax


lol,what was with the "ease of reading"?

Just wondering.....

reply to post by jkrog08


I just wanted to tell ya jkrog08 that I love reading your ideas. I am slowly sifting through some other psts you have made on other threads....and I love your thoughts and look forward to reading more...

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Thanx!


I have added you as a friend by the way.I am glad you are getting satisfactory answers to your questions

reply to post by jkrog08

Spacing between words, mostly - you tended not to leave any whenever there was a punctuation mark, a comma or whatever, between two words. Also, when you're offering highly condensed information like that, it becomes more digestible if you break it up into paragraphs rather than offering a solid block of text.

Hope that's okay with you.

reply to post by Astyanax



Thats fine,I get going to fast sometimes.

I freely admit to not being able to grasp the idea of an infinite past. The math is just beyond me.

When you combine infinity and time you get 'eternity' and so the 'now' can occur only after eternity has passed and finished. But the 'now' has been reached. It is here. Have we reached the end of an eternity? I yam so confused.

If we managed somehow to reverse time we can never get back to a beginning as the past stretches back without end. But if, with time flowing in reverse, we cannot reach an end to the past then how did we reach the end of it when we moved in the other direction? If we cannot get from here to there, how did we get from there to here?

Is this really what materialism teaches or is this one of those tricky 'how do you clap with one hand' type questions? You guys are pulling my leg right? right?