Ascorbic Acid Role in Containment of the World Avian Flu Pandemic

Taking note of this inconsistency, Drs Steve Hickey and Hilary Roberts decided to investigate the data for a book ("Ascorbate, the science of vitamin C", www.lulu.com/ascorbate). They began by looking at the apparently ludicrous claims for the medical effects of vitamin C. Pauling had stated that the substance could cure cancer and that shortage was the major cause of heart disease. Among his many scientific advances, Pauling had made occasional errors: perhaps he had done the same with vitamin C. If he was wrong, his hypotheses should be easy to refute. When they examined the evidence, Hickey and Roberts found background evidence for Pauling's ideas from independent scientific and medical reports, covering half a century. The findings in these papers could neither be dismissed as placebo effects nor easily explained. The reports included remission of AIDS, cures for cancer, and the immediate recovery of children at the point of death from septic shock. The claims seemed so out of the ordinary that they were hard to believe. However, Hickey and Roberts could find no counter examples in the scientific or medical literature. If these positive reports were indeed wrong, no-one had shown this to be true. The scientific evidence was consistent with Pauling's ideas, with a few notable exceptions. The primary exception was the NIH data on blood and tissue saturation. The medical establishment accepted the NIH conclusions and held them in the highest regard. The US Institute of Medicine had based their official recommended dietary allowance (RDA) on these results. If the NIH was correct, then Pauling was wrong and the positive reports of high doses must be invalid. The NIH conclusions were not correct, however. Hickey and Roberts examined their experiments and found them to be full of errors. For example, the researchers had given a dose of vitamin C, waited until it had been excreted and then measured blood levels. Using this procedure, they found that increasing the dose did not greatly increase the blood levels. Instead of realising that this was because the dose had been excreted, the NIH claimed it was because the body was saturated, so higher doses were redundant. They then used white blood cells as a model for normal cells, to see how they absorbed vitamin C from their surroundings. These white blood cells are specialised to absorb vitamin C, even when supplies are low. If other body cells were similar to white blood cells, we would normally have a reserve of 40 grams in our bodies. In this case, given the proposed RDA of 200mg, it would take 2-3 years to fill a depleted body. This is demonstrably incorrect: the classic example is that James Lind's sailors recovered from scurvy in a matter of days when they were given citrus fruits containing small amounts of vitamin C. These mistakes were gross and unsupportable. In order to check their re-interpretation of the data, Hickey sent emails to the NIH, the Institute of Medicine and every scientist he could contact who was associated with the RDA, asking them to provide a reasonable scientific response to these errors. No-one was able to provide such a response. Since it is normal scientific practice to explain and defend your ideas, the hypothesis that people only need small amounts of vitamin C looks increasingly shaky. Even the NIH's subsequent data contradicts their earlier work. The NIH vitamin C group published a series of papers on vitamin C and cancer [Ann Intern Med, 140(7), 533-7.]. In these papers, they suggested that repeated doses of oral vitamin C would produce blood levels of at least 220 microM (a measure of the concentration) , which is three times greater than the 70 microM maximum "saturated" value they claimed in their RDA papers. While their own papers clearly showed that their low-dose claims were wrong, the NIH appeared not to notice. Instead, they suggested that intravenous doses could produce higher blood levels, which might be effective against cancer. Even though their data were coming closer to Pauling's findings on the use of vitamin C in cancer, the NIH took the opportunity to mount another attack on Linus Pauling, suggesting he did not know the difference between oral and intravenous (IV) vitamin C.

Vitamin C, Linus Pauling was right all along





[edit on 2-7-2009 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by esecallum

 

This information is not fake. I'd like you to substantiate that claim, please.

If you have the thinking that only something which gets FDA approved is real, you're just being a bit ignorant.

FDA is bought out by pharmaceutical lobbyists.

Why would anyone pay for tamiflu, when you could just drink green tea, or better yet, get the fruit extract from which the drug is synthesized?


[edit on 2-7-2009 by unityemissions]

Quackbusters says so,

They say it is all a money making scam.FDA states do not vitamins as they can increase cancer rates.You can die from vitamins.

The FDA has highly respected scientists.

In America there is no corruption as we are a transparent society.

FDA are elected and appointed by the government.

There job is to safeguard the public from charlatans and snake oil salesman .

vitamin c cures nothing it is just nonsense.it will destroy your tooth enamel from the acid.

it is an acid.

you will get stomach burn and an ulcer.

how did people manage in the stone age?

eh?

Please tell me that you are being sarcastic. Because, I am way more giving towards the democratic governments than 90% of th people on this board, and most people in general anywhere....and I still cannot believe that you actually could possibly be that naive.

reply to post by esecallum


All that I can think of is that you have issues, man. I don't know that you intend to cause chaos, but what you write is just off the walls!

Seriously. I hope you do get help, but maybe you don't want it. Maybe you're psycho??

At any rate, you've just made my ignore list. Take care...

Overdosing yourself with vitamin C would not be a problem , because it is hydrosoluble , the extra will be excreted easily through urin with the water of your body. Knock yourselves out lol

List of hydrosoluble vitamins :

# VITAMIN C. Ascorbic acid. Antiscorbutic.
# VITAMIN B1. Thiamine.
# VITAMIN B2. Riboflavin.
# VITAMIN B3. Niacin. Nicotinic acid. Vitamin PP.
# VITAMIN B5. Pantothenic acid. Vitamin W.
# VITAMIN B6. Pyridoxine.
# VITAMIN B8. Biotin. Vitamin H.
# VITAMIN B9 . Folic Acid.
# VITAMIN B12. Cobalamin.





On the other hand , taking too much of a liposoluble vitamin can be dangerous , these will most likely remain in the body and will end up being toxic in high dosages. These can be a problem for people that take suplements and think it is for their benefit :


* Vitamin A (Retinol)
* Vitamin D (Calciferol)
* Vitamin E (Tocopherol)
* Vitamin K (Antihemorragic)





Regarding the geometry of any substance , it has to be perfectly the same (if you want to manufacture it) , or else it could become a completely different substance with completely different properties. You could even change a vitamin to a deadly poison , by simply changind a few degrees of the angles between the chemichal components. It is THAT serious.



My personal opinion on manufactured Vitamin C is that it should be okay. I only avoid it because most are including aspartame in it as well. That one I avoid like the plague. Many researches against it for my taste.


Some natural resources for Vitamin C :

# Cow milk
# Vegetables
# Verdures
# Cereals
# Meat
# Fruits
# Citrics

reply to post by Roufas


Thanks for the addition. Yes, b & c are water soluble so there are next to no toxicity involved. The exception being b6. At doses larger than 200mg, neuropathy (temporary nerve damage) can develop. This is a much larger dose than most people will ever need.

You are also correct about fat-soluble vitamins. People can still take doses over the RDA, but should use caution and do their homework before doing so.

The main thing to REALLY be concerned about is mineral supplementation. The headroom between RDA & serious toxicity is much, much lower than fat-soluble vitamins. Of the handful of overdoses reported yearly from vitamins, Iron causes the majority.

As for finding a vitamin-c supplement without any fillers like aspartame, look into sodium ascorbate. It's ph buffered and does not contain any fillers. You can find a 3lb bag for $30-50 online. This will last a while, or in the case of severe flu, one person, one time.

reply to post by Roufas




You can't cure anything with vitamin c.


it is just snake oil.

quackbusters says it is dangerous.they say it can cause toxicoisios.

i can prove it too.

if vitamin c can cure cancer then why are doctors/hospitals not using it?

eh?

see?

you cant answer.

here is th killer questions:-

in any case how did we manage without vitamin c 500 years ago or 2000 years ago?

I never said vitamin C can cure anything.

I am well studied enough to know it helps PREVENT the flu , as it also helps during the healing process.

We also need it to produce collagen in our bodies , it is required , and we do not produce it in our bodies.

It has never been a magic cure.



Answering your last question , we did not manage withouth it , since it is present in many NATURAL resources.

Ever heard of scurvy disease? That was a common disease in people that navigated the seas a long time ago. How did they manage it? Bringing fruits rich in vitamin C into their ships. Simple.


[edit on 10-7-2009 by Roufas]

quackbusters says it is df vitamin c can cure cancer then why are doctors/hospitals not using it?angerous.they say it can cause toxicoisios.

i can prove it too.

if vitamin c can cure cancer then why are doctors/hospitals not using it?
quackbusters says it is dangerous.they say it can cause toxicoisios.

I have no idea what Esecallum's posts are about.

It cannot be him writing the posts in this thread...

The reason I say that is because over the course of the past long while, I pay attention to like minded people. I have never seen anyone as much against mainstream medicine, the FDA, CDC, quackbusters, orthodox medicine and allopathy as Esecallum and I.

He recognizes them as a number one evil. Why would he all of a sudden, start pimping Tamiflu and the FDA over several posts here? Doesn't make any sense. He and I have written in detailed length about the BS that is Rumsfeld's Tamiflu - another pill for the hysterical masses.

So in conclusion, take a look at Esecallum's past posts over the years regarding anything mainstream medicine. He has always saw through the poisoning of humanity that is Big Pharma.

Hacked account?

Anyone wanting another little bit of very important vitamin C info, take a look at this 2 minute video clip.

reply to post by StrangeBrew


I see , he certainly is not keeping himself inside topic. Simply ignoring everything.

Keeps repeating the same stuff as if it was a copy and paste lol

Here is Dr. Linus Pauling, the two time Nobel winner of chemistry for his explanation of the molecular bond; and peace, for his nuclear proliferation banning movement. He is explaining the slight devolution of man, from the perspective that ascorbate is of vital importance to everyone, and that we no longer consume the adequate doses required.



Enjoy


Also, to clear up the erroneous claims that natural c is better than synthetic, here is Dr Jane Higdon, R.N., Ph.D. telling it like it is.

• Natural vs. synthetic ascorbic acid: Natural and synthetic ascorbic acid are chemically identical. As assessed by at least two studies, there appears to be no clinically significant difference in the bioavailability and bioactivity of natural ascorbic acid and synthetic ascorbic acid.

Link

Lastly:

In the November 23, 2000, issue of Nature, one of the premier scientific journals in the world, Dr. Gautam Desiraju of the University of Hyderabad in India contributed a millennium essay about Pauling entitled “The all-chemist”. Desiraju praised Pauling’s astounding revolution of the science of chemistry by noting that the “extrapolation from physics to chemistry and the articulation of chemistry as an independent subject was the handiwork of a single individual. Linus Pauling ranks with Galileo, Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Newton, Bach, Faraday, Freud, and Einstein as one of the great thinkers and visionaries of the millennium.” Desiraju continued, “Chemistry, then, is utterly different from physics and biology in its dependence, at a primal level, on just one scientist.” Citing Pauling’s work on the nature of the chemical bond, the hybridization of bond orbitals (a fundamental concept of organic chemistry), electronegativity, metallic and hydrogen bonds, the structure of benzene, molecular structure, and other concepts that form the basis for modern chemistry, Desiraju proclaimed that Linus Pauling was “not of this age, but for all time.”

Linus Pauling, a true genius



[edit on 16-7-2009 by unityemissions]

Natural versus man-made vitamin C -

Our ancestors lost their ability to make their own vitamin C way back when they were fruit-eating primates, living in trees. Like guinea pigs and fruit bats, our ancestors got plenty of vitamin C because freshly picked fruit comprised the bulk of their diets.

Some people suggest we shouldn't take C supplements because they are unnatural. However climbing down from the tree-tops after losing one of our 4 liver enzymes which used to convert glucose to vitamin C was unnatural and I doubt many of us want to climb back up them again.

When animals, (apart from the few mutant exceptions not capable of making vitamin C,) encounter stress, poison, injury or infection they immediately start producing enormous amounts of vitamin C. A 100kg animal can jump from it's baseline production of about 13 grams of vitamin C daily to ~100 gm daily under stress. However I still found that giving sick goats or dogs extra vitamin C helps, even on top of all that.

These days it's almost impossible to get a reasonable amount of vitamin C from food because of its short half life. The highest quantities are found in fruits and potatoes, but every 24 hours after picking the fruit loses half its vitamin C. The fruit you buy is generally over a week old if it's fresh, and can be 6 months old if it's been kept in a cool store. So only trace amounts of that vitamin are now available in our food.

Still if we eat well we can avoid scurvy, but vitamin C does so many other things in building and protecting out bodies that such a small amount is pathetic. It is a building block, used along with protein and calcium to build bones. It's used to build collagen, which keeps us looking young. It's used in all sorts of different processes in the body. It boosts the immune system. And it absorbs free radicals, protecting from cancer and toxins.


The advantage of getting vitamin C naturally is that it never occurs alone in nature. It's always accompanied by bioflavenoids which make it even more efficient.

However these can be added to the diet along with the vitamin C.
Currants, new tender grape leaves, oats, barley, green tea, all have bioflavenoids in them.
A particularly good source, rich in a bioflanenoid which helps protect from radiation, is grapefruit skins.
Any time you have unsprayed grapefruit, after eating them soak their skins in water in the fridge for 24 hours. This is quite pleasant to drink in summer with a touch of ascorbic acid stirred in.

reply to post by Kailassa


Finally, someone who is well informed about vitamin-c

As far as I can tell, everything you wrote is entirely accurate. Thank you for this contribution.

• Vitamin C with bioflavonoids: Bioflavonoids are a class of water-soluble plant pigments. Vitamin C-rich fruits and vegetables, especially citrus fruits, are often rich sources of bioflavonoids as well. The effect of bioflavonoids on the bioavailability of ascorbic acid has been examined in two small published studies. In one study synthetic ascorbic acid given in a natural citrus extract containing bioflavonoids (in the ratio of bioflavonoids to ascorbic acid of 4:1), proteins, and carbohydrates, was more slowly absorbed and 35% more bioavailable than synthetic ascorbic acid alone, based on plasma levels of ascorbate over time and 24-hour urinary excretion of ascorbate. In the other study, there was no difference in the bio-availability of 500 mg of synthetic ascorbic acid and that of a commercially available vitamin C preparation with added bioflavonoids, where the ratio of bioflavonoids to ascorbic acid was 0.05:1.

From the link above...

I initially hurried this thread when the swine flu became all the hysteria, but now wish I would have taken more time. Your thoughts were well written out.

Thanks again..


[edit on 16-7-2009 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by mystiq

 

If you get a serious illness like the flu or cancer you want a dose just before bowel tolerance to have the anti-inflammation effects which keep you alive!!

You can get buffered ascorbic acid as ascorbate. Don't take the calcium ascorbate, as it's known to cause problems with that much free calcium floating around.

I just ordered a 3lb bag of sodium ascorbate. If I get the flu, I'm starting with 10 grams hourly until bowel tolerance is reached. Then I stop, take the same dose spread out through the next day. See if I'm okay. Adjust accordingly.



[edit on 25-4-2009 by unityemissions]

CVS has a brand called Emergen-C, it is fizzy Packets of buffered Vit C, in a good mix of ascorbates without all that sodium which is not good for you especially if your blood pressure is high.

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Finally, someone who is well informed about vitamin-c

As far as I can tell, everything you wrote is entirely accurate. Thank you for this contribution.

No worries.
I was lucky enough to be able to regularly eavesdrop on a very learned man discussing nutrition and healing when I was just a kid, 45 years back. As an adult my interest was peaked again by the wonderful Adelle Davis books, which you might find interesting.

I learned from experience that most doctors and naturopaths know nothing about vitamins, and both are likely to mislead with incorrect advice, scare stories or old wives tales. There is actually a lot of solid scientific research on the various vitamins, and you can find out more by studying the research than most professionals ever learn.

• Vitamin C with bioflavonoids: Bioflavonoids are a class of water-soluble plant pigments. Vitamin C-rich fruits and vegetables, especially citrus fruits, are often rich sources of bioflavonoids as well. The effect of bioflavonoids on the bioavailability of ascorbic acid has been examined in two small published studies. In one study synthetic ascorbic acid given in a natural citrus extract containing bioflavonoids (in the ratio of bioflavonoids to ascorbic acid of 4:1), proteins, and carbohydrates, was more slowly absorbed and 35% more bioavailable than synthetic ascorbic acid alone, based on plasma levels of ascorbate over time and 24-hour urinary excretion of ascorbate. In the other study, there was no difference in the bio-availability of 500 mg of synthetic ascorbic acid and that of a commercially available vitamin C preparation with added bioflavonoids, where the ratio of bioflavonoids to ascorbic acid was 0.05:1.

Obviously we need a lot of bioflavenoids in proportion to vitamin C for optimal effect. As they are abundant in foods but expensive in supplements, it makes sense to take vitamin C supplements with foods that contain the bioflavenoids.

I initially hurried this thread when the swine flu became all the hysteria, but now wish I would have taken more time. Your thoughts were well written out.

Thanks again..

Aiming to high can mean never getting something done. You made a great and timely thread, thank you giving other people room to contribute. I'm glad I could be one of them.

Btw, other treatments for the flu you might want to investigate are vitamins A and D and ginger. Nothing works perfectly on its own. Use a whole battalion of Special Forces and they can support each other, each fighting this enemy more effectively than thay could on their own.

Great thread. S&F.

I have a seven-year-old son. What do you consider a reasonable dose of vitamin C for a person at that age? Is 500mg ok?

reply to post by Nichiren


It depends on weight and health of the individual. If she is over 50lbs, I would personally suggest 500mg three times a day for optimal health. If you get c with bioflavinoids, it will last in serum longer, and be more bio-available.

This can be hard to get a child to take a pill 3x a day, so alternately you could get c powder and mix in juice. I would say 500mg once a day minimum for good health.

When sick, it basically depends on the severity of illness to restore health. You will know if it's too much by getting slight stomach pain, and diarrhea. It's individual based, so this is trial and error.

reply to post by unityemissions


Thanks.