Are there two Jesus Christs? pls explain

I would like someone to explain the different geneologies of Jesus Christ, and please refrain from saying one relates to Mary because the bible would have said, father of Mary not Joseph...Im so over that comment esp. considering so many people quote: 1Tim.3:16-17; "All scripture is God-breathed..." yet we have alot of interpretation and conflict over what really is written

The Genealogy of the Son of Man; Jesus Christ, Matthew 1 Son of Man is born from the line of King Davids son Solomon, leading to Josephs father being Jacob

Genealogy of the Son of God; Jesus Christ in Luke 23. Jesus Christ the Son of God is born from the line of King Davids son Nathan (Solomons bro) leading to Josephs father being Heli

One is the mothers side, one is the fathers side.

You do have 2 biological Grandfather's right? So did Jesus

There are 2 births for every person. 1 of them is the birth of the flesh. The birth of the flesh is where you get bloodlines and such. When it comes to the flesh, Jesus is born of Mary AND Joseph.

The 2nd birth is to be born of the "virgin" who is the father(god). This is the birth of the soul and so forth.

Most people are blind and do not know about the 2nd birth. They have no idea.

Psalm 82
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Where as Jesus was apparently born knowing the 2nd birth and so forth, the majority of us are not. Thus, we must be "born again" as Jesus says.

www.biblegateway.com...

John 3

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Your spirit/soul/consciousness comes from the father. Your body is of the flesh. Only that which is of the spirit and father is able to return back to the father, the flesh is not.

You can see this in many people who have not been born again. They look at themselves as being only the flesh and so forth. Talk to an atheists and they will say they are nothing but flesh etc.

I am not talking about becoming a "born again christian" at all btw. Nor am I talking about dipping yourself into water. When you are born again of the second birth, you will have experienced John 14:20.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

At that day you will know who your true father is, and then you will no longer think of yourself as flesh, or think of your flesh parents as being your real parents. You will know you are not really your body, it's just a vessel that you are really soul/consciousness that is born of the father.

People like to call Mary the virgin because they lack understanding, yes including the written bible. They forget that Jesus rejects Mary as his mother as well.

2 births, one is of the flesh, one is of the spirit. There is no equal to the father, and he is and always will be the virgin souls are born of.

I think people just don't really get the 2nd birth and so they think Mary must have been a virgin. Ask a jew how bad the writers of the new testament screwed up when trying to make Jesus fit their lack of understanding of the previous scriptures. It reminds me of when my little brother tried to forge my mothers signature on his report card when he was in kindergarden - he even did it in crayon.



[edit on 23-4-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I said in post if it was for both parents then it is not written as such. Both say clearly Josephs father...how about you make up the one which applies, lots of clergy make up stuff with personal interpretation to justify their opinions and justify the church...

Which is Marys geneology So lets say Son of man geneology is mothers side... or is it fathers side? He of course was the man, but hang on Josephs seed had nothing to do with Jesus Christ so why is his geneology important? ... and yes this is important because people say the bible is truth, God is the father of Jesus

reply to post by badmedia

you are an interesting writer. Thank you for your informative text. I like the part of the two births one of flesh the other of spirit, and I dont want to sound pedantic here but it still does not explain the geneologies being written both for Joseph. If the writters messed up on that simple fact that what else have they missed out on or messed up on or changed to suit themselves.

Virgin has also been interpreted as conceived without human seed, Divine conception as in Jesus' birth and also in history Krishna was divinely conceived (I am not relating the two). So Mary may not have physically been a virgin but she conceived Jesus Christ through the spirit not through Joseph. Your interpretation as born of the virgin father God is quite wonderful and I have not heard that before.

I am just getting what Blue_Jay 33 wrote, however that is still not clear because it says clearly Josephs father, not Josephs mothers father or Josephs fathers father, or geneology of Marys father or Marys mothers father, and we dont know if Marys father is called joseph as well, and even it he is then it should write geneology of Marys father...here we are doing our best...

None of this really matters. If we live in the day living in the now then we live in the presence of God. If our minds go back to past or project to future we leave Gods presence and enter into the matrix and illusion of the dream world.

I just like chatting about the bible and God and "..all things bright and beautiful all creatures great and small.." I still think the bible depicts 2 different gods the God of Love vs the Lord God of war



[edit on 23-4-2009 by flashesofblue]

[edit on 23-4-2009 by flashesofblue]

Matthew
The Genealogy of Jesus
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


Luke 3
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

Here are the two accounts one goes all the way to Adam the other starts at Abraham(marked in red) Note the family line splits off of with David's two sons, Solomon the famous King, and a less known son named Nathan.
2 Samuel 5 verse 13 & 14
After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him. 14 These are the names of the children born to him there: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon

Nathan's line is the one that goes to Mary, Solomon's line goes to the father.
Joseph. The Luke account says Heli is Joseph Father because he is his father-in-law.

Hope that helps.

I would like to add, that under Jewish law (and of course Jesus is Jewish) tribal identification comes from the father's side and being Jewish comes from the mother's side.

Jesus' own don't buy into this because of the claim that Mary & Joseph didn't have sexual relations - therefore Joseph can't be his real father, which in their minds means that Jesus wasn't descended from the line of David. They don't buy into the ideology that he was adopted either because under their law being adopted wouldn't change his status. From Mary's side they only will look at the fact that he is Jewish.

What they have so far failed to realize is that God himself is the actual King of Israel:

"This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

Judah is the tribe kings came from, God is King, Jesus is his Son, therefore Jesus is from the tribe of Judah on his Father's side.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

thanks Blue_Jay33. Fact remains you just made up the fact that Nathans sons were the line to Mary as there is no record that Marys father was named Joseph. Thanks for the effort of writting the verses.

Like I said find me a quote that directly says Marys father is named Joseph... again so many assumptions Joseph is reckoned as the son of marys father because they got married.. and therefor it is presumed the geneology is of Mary? under her husbands name....sorry to much presumption.

Luke clearly states that Jesus was the supposed son of Joseph, identifying Jesus line to God. Matthew clearly states Joseph as father. Just considering the alternative view that possibly their are two alternate Jesus stories.
Luke 23:46 Jesus (Son of God) says "..Father into your hands I commit my Spirit..."
Matthew 27:46 Jesus (Son of Man) says "...my God my God, why have You forsaken Me..."

Luke 24:4 "...two men stood by them in shinning garments..."
Matthew 28:2 "..for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven..."

luke 24: 1-10 "...they and certain other woman...Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other woman with them..."
Matthew 28:1 "...Mary Magdelene and the other Mary came to see the tomb..."

is there is a possiblity there are two accounts of different Jesus Christs... especially considering the genealogy, which I noted from your work yet you still can not prove that Joseph is Marys father

Originally posted by flashesofblue
reply to post by badmedia

 

you are an interesting writer. Thank you for your informative text. I like the part of the two births one of flesh the other of spirit, and I dont want to sound pedantic here but it still does not explain the geneologies being written both for Joseph. If the writters messed up on that simple fact that what else have they missed out on or messed up on or changed to suit themselves.

I don't know about the lines, I consider that kind of information to not be valuable. Right up there with the is Jesus real debate, doesn't really matter to me either way. But I thought you were asking why his line went through Joseph if Mary was supposed to be a virgin, so I was explaining what I know about the 2 births.

Virgin has also been interpreted as conceived without human seed, Divine conception as in Jesus' birth and also in history Krishna was divinely conceived (I am not relating the two). So Mary may not have physically been a virgin but she conceived Jesus Christ through the spirit not through Joseph. Your interpretation as born of the virgin father God is quite wonderful and I have not heard that before.

Well, the father is a virgin because there is no equal. Always a virgin and so forth, from which all souls are born. But where things get tricky is that the father is within us all. So the soul of Jesus did come through Mary and so forth, so she did conceive Jesus in that way. But to say she had equal "hand" in it and such to call her a virgin, I don't think so. It's really a matter of perspective and how you want to look at things. If you look at things from the father or from each individual son/daughter. In the son/daughter perspective we have equals, in the father perspective there is none. Father is much greater than any single one of us.

We are all born of the virgin, so I wonder if Mary hasn't been called the virgin as a means of confusing people of this. Jesus says we must be "born again", and not to marvel/wonder or be surprised about that. Many take that to mean it hasn't happened yet, Paul even goes on blindly about "being adopted", which only goes to show he wasn't true. Being born again is really just about coming to the understanding and knowing it. And like I said before, then you no longer see yourself as flesh etc.

Psalm 82 pretty much caps this point off.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I just like chatting about the bible and God and "..all things bright and beautiful all creatures great and small.." I still think the bible depicts 2 different gods the God of Love vs the Lord God of war

I'm not sure about the OT and 2 gods things, it could be some parts are misunderstood, or that I am not wise enough to understand them. Sometimes I go back and look at something, such as the tower of babel story and I can understand why something was done, and it turns out god is not the "bad" destroyer type after all.

But, I do find that to be true about the NT. There are the stories of Jesus, and then the writings of Paul make up nearly 50% of the rest. Paul does what politicians do, praises Jesus heavily, says good things about him, but then in action does things which go against what Jesus, and also the OT say. Tells people "all powers are of god", which is somewhat technically true on a higher level, but then uses that as a way of getting people to follow earthly powers and authority, rather than the understanding and wisdom of the father. Paul appeals to the powers(Romans) politically.

See the same thing with politicians today, they praise the flag, the constitution and the people heavily, speak in general terms(hollow words) and in action don't really follow what they praise for public consumption. And of course, no shortage of people who are happy to follow them along. When flag pins are a big deal rather than actual topics, something stinks. And when crosses and other symbolism are being thrown about rather than understanding and good "works", then that stinks as well.

What boggles me though is when you have Paul making up so much and creating such authorities etc, they are pretty much saying(by their claims): god came to earth, showed and did all these wonderful things and showed people the path, but apparently that in itself was not good enough, so he needed Paul to praise Jesus a ton, and then tell people what it meant. Even though Jesus specifically warns against such things. Not much wonder why people are confused.

Originally posted by flashesofblue
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

thanks Blue_Jay33. Fact remains you just made up the fact that Nathans sons were the line to Mary as there is no record that Marys father was named Joseph. Thanks for the effort of writting the verses.

Your are correct, Heli is Mary's father, as I posted. Which is Joseph's
father-in-law, his biological father is Jacob.
The fact is the biological line comes from Nathans blood line which is Kingly, the males side although not biological, is the legal right, that God enforced.

It's all pretty clear to me once I studied it.
I am sorry if you can't see it.

At a certain point the Romans got fed up with the Jews and drove them out. Then you eventually had a bunch of former pagans who found it convenient to call themselves Christians. These people carried on the practice of hating Jews and did what they could to obscure what it meant for Jesus to be the Messiah. On the matriarchal side, Jesus was a priest of the High Priest Order and as the normally recognized people of that group were methodically killed off by Herod and replaced by anyone rich enough to buy the position, Jesus had to lay low and eventually got his opportunity. Pilot shook things up by overthrowing the ensconced hierarchy by appointing someone who was actually legitimate, through the advice of his friend, Joseph of Arimahtia. That only lasted for one year and then the political forces demanded the reinstatement of the powerful elite. The forlorn ex-High Priest had to go into hiding and assume a different identity. Once he had gathered a large following, he became a threat. The false priests imagined that this now forgotten soul would re-claim his rightful position and take it to the logical conclusion of assuming the kingdom, as the family of Maccabeus had done after throwing out the Greeks who had put in false priests and had defiled the temple. This person had already shown a special interest in the purity of the Temple and they were afraid that he was just starting.
Of course all this was contrary to the Roman idea that Judaism was inferior, and they had to hide the fact that Pilot told the truth when he ordered a sign on the cross, saying, "The King of the Jews".


[edit on 24-4-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


thank you Blue Jay33. I guess sometimes things are not as clear to me as to others. If Marys father was named Heli then why dont they say this is Marys father. At this stage we just presume the fact. Have a great day

reply to post by jmdewey60


wow, I knew none of that. Thank you

reply to post by badmedia


once again, good writing. Paul had an intersting agenda. What do you make of this quote by Jesus possibly referring to Paul as satan? Matthew 16: 17-19 states Jesus Son of Man gives the keys to the kingdom of heaven to Peter, whom he later refers to as Satan (Matthew 16:23). ??

Paul was not too keen on women, unlike Jesus who made every effort to consolidate differences between the sexes.
I Corinthians 14:34-35; "Let your women keep silence in the churches...etc
1Tim 2...3:11 Paul does not permit woman to teach, or have authority over men etc, ..now girls know your place...lol, buts its ok to be sunday school teachers.

Any way like said earlier I will continue to love and to live, to be in the now and to forgive myself for being to hard on myself and getting caught up in the politics of religion and wonderng why the church so fervently wishes to follow the teachings of Paul so much.

Like you said this was what Jesus warned us not to do... have a great day

reply to post by flashesofblue


Well we know Joseph doesn't have 2 biological fathers, but he does have one father-in-law and one biological father. In the account it doesn't specify, but I know some families where the son calls his father-in-law dad, so it is done even today.

The first time I read it, I was confused too.

Originally posted by flashesofblue
reply to post by badmedia

 

once again, good writing. Paul had an intersting agenda. What do you make of this quote by Jesus possibly referring to Paul as satan? Matthew 16: 17-19 states Jesus Son of Man gives the keys to the kingdom of heaven to Peter, whom he later refers to as Satan (Matthew 16:23). ??

Matthew 16

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is where I differ from Christians again.

Of notice is that is says what is gained and lost is present in heaven and also on earth. Well heaven is within, and as it showed in the verses earlier, only that which is of the spirit will return to heaven. Thus that he is talking about a physical church is out of the question.

In the time of Jesus, a physical building of worship was called a synagogue. Over and over he talks about synagogues and temples of worship etc, doesn't call them churches.

Plus, if heaven is within and he is given the keys to heaven, then of course the keys are within. Again, not in a physical building.

What is present on both earth and in heaven is your soul/consciousness and what is really "you". And what you gain and lose is understanding and wisdom. Which is more valuable than anything on earth. Proverbs 8 - those who find and love god will have their treasures filled with wisdom and knowledge.

The rock Jesus is referring to is the same rock in Matthew 7. He is using the rock as a metaphor for something that is strong and sturdy like in matthew 7.

The part about Satan, I am not sure exactly. But death is not a real big deal when you understand how things work, so when Peter rebukes him for going off to be killed, it means Peter must not truly and completely believe him about life beyond the death of this world etc.

Paul was not too keen on women, unlike Jesus who made every effort to consolidate differences between the sexes.
I Corinthians 14:34-35; "Let your women keep silence in the churches...etc
1Tim 2...3:11 Paul does not permit woman to teach, or have authority over men etc, ..now girls know your place...lol, buts its ok to be sunday school teachers.

Any way like said earlier I will continue to love and to live, to be in the now and to forgive myself for being to hard on myself and getting caught up in the politics of religion and wonderng why the church so fervently wishes to follow the teachings of Paul so much.

Like you said this was what Jesus warned us not to do... have a great day

The entire function of the church is out of order, creating authorities of themselves in the name of god. Everything Jesus says of the Pharisees applies to the physical church and it's system.

I'm not a "gnostic christian", but I do find myself generally in agreement with them, as they also put the importance on wisdom and knowledge, rather than the blind faith and idolization of the church. They have been persecuted by the church since the start unless they claimed to be of the normal Christians(prophecy fulfilled).

The 4 books of the bible that contain Jesus are considered gnostic texts, those are the 4 I generally accept as wise/true. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.