Skeptics Only: Get Crazy!

reply to post by seb2882


The types of "proof" that provide validation for me are things that we see everyday. I.E. videos, eyewitness testimony, FOI documents, photgraphs, disclosure statements of "credible" peoples such as the one on CNN this week by the former astronaut, independent investigations and so on. I'll be the first to admit that most of these sources have corruptions, no doubt, some of them I do feel to be genuine. Any of these sources would be enough to put someone in the electric chair, why is it that when it comes to this stuff, even the best evidence is subjected to relentless scrutiny. Not to say that it shouldn't be scrutinzed, it should for validity, as any evidence for anything should, but the skeptics are themselves are trying so hard to debunk, that sometimes they seem to be the conspiracy theorist. Sorry but I've never set anything to default in my life, including my brain.

Originally posted by bluwaterman
I.E. videos, eyewitness testimony ..

Even that is not enough. A good verifiable alibi and/or alternative explanation can blow all that out of the water. "Honestly, your honor, that wasn't me that robbed that bank, even if that person in that video looks exactly like me, and everyone picked me out of the police lineup. I was at work, ask my boss." ... .. "Say, maybe it was my twin brother." DOH!

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Divinorumus]

reply to post by bluwaterman


"The types of "proof" that provide validation for me are things that we see everyday."

The problem with that "proof" is that isn't not repeatable, and not subject to analysis. So it's not "proof". That point seems to be missed/ignored a lot.

reply to post by Divinorumus


Yes, that is true. But then according to your other post, would you believe if someone with certain "credentials" (i.e. the government, scientists) tells you they are real? Lets say they hold a massive conference where they disclose it, will you believe it, if it sounds convincing enough, or do you still have to experience it yourself?

I see a difficulty with the OP premise. We've been asked for a general solution to a specific situation. Without knowing the circumstances, I wouldn't be able to state what proof would be "enough".

I'll play...I am very skeptical

Let's start with not being called a dis-info agent every time I disagree with something.
Now that the mini rant is over...

Proof. Proof is important to us. Believe it or not, I want to know the honest truth. If the truth is that 9/11 was an inside job I want to see it. (don't start with me folks...just using it as an example...the fact is I have no real belief on 9/11 either way)

If aliens do exist then let's see more than some grainy picture that looks photoshopped.

A few months ago a thread was started calling the existence of nuclear weapons into play. Now...you can believe me and you can not believe me...I don't care...I am not losing sleep. I worked on the Mk-12A Minuteman III ICBM myself. I did it for 6 years in North Dakota. So I know the casings and such exist. I've seen the needle on the counter jump near the pit. I've also seen the (goddess knows how man) videos made of detonations. So one person posts that they are fake and the videos are fake. They point out things that seem so painfully obvious to others and stuff that can be proven away pretty easily.

All this 'proof' people send us always has some issue. It's grainy, unintelligeble, questionable, and seems to come from some magical friend in the CIA. It all sounds like absolute bunk.

Now to answer the second part...

Let's say one day I believe I am abducted by an alien who passes me knowledge on the ending of this planet. I am returned to Chicago and want to tell my story. Question 1...what sort of proof do I have? If none...I am not even going to start

-Kyo

reply to post by Divinorumus


So if I had a video of O.J. chopping his ex wifes head off, his alibi of I was at home with whatever that guys name was, would've overidden my video? I surely understand that when it comes to matters such as these, eyewitness testimony, by anyone, no matter who they are or how many there are is not going to be believed. While I am by no means knowledgable of the authentification of video evidence, surely there is some way for someone to verify that they have not been tampered with, photoshopped, or some sort of CGI? Yes, video tends to be my personal favorite, but a close second would be physical trace evidence. Rendlesham/Bentwater AFB, SUPPOSED traces of thermite detected in NYC twin towers debris/onsite, The Bildebergers are in fact a real group, that do meet annually to decide global policy, There are in fact harmful chemicals in our water and food supply. Aside from the thermite thing, are the rest of these actually up for debate as to whether or not they exist? I only mention the thermite because I read recently that it was detected in trace amounts by some independent researchers. Thats not going to do it for me, but it is supposedly an example of trace evidence. Sorry for any digression

It would be really, really nice if we could all dial back on the defensiveness.

You want to know what changed my opinion about the subjects proposed by the OP ? Believers. When I started reading ATS in 2007 I thought I was a believer. Who convinced me that 911 is definitely NOT an inside job ? Alex Jones. What would make a believer again out of me? Much better evidence. Or a frontal lobotomy.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Let me rephrase the premise: take a solution on one of the topics I listed (or any other one you think is appropiate) and make a plausible solution for that difficult or imposible scenario to be true. Like another user before who claimed that in order to prove UFO aliens, he should get a UFO down, get greeted by an alien and make a tour on its ship.

reply to post by KyoZero


Agreed. I wouldn't ever tell my story unless I have something solid to back it up.

reply to post by nablator


While it doesn't stopped me believing, it's true that euphoria over a given topic with no regards towards evidence or proof ultimately leads me to not discuss these things on my everyday life because I get ridiculed, and whose fault is it? Blossom Goodchild, I am a Top CIA Agent, and all the bunch who only hinders whatever true may or may not be on these topics.

Originally posted by seb2882

1) The government is hiding alien tech

2) The government is hiding live/dead aliens.

Show me some honest to god empirical proof. People love to believe in many things and there are even some that call themselves experts, but in all cases and I me all, the physical data is lost, stolen, missing or just air….

3) Men never set foot on the Moon (deadly radiation, poor tech, fabricated images etc.)

This was within our capabilities, so I would need a big smoking gun on this one.

4) NWO is real and is evil

NWO who? Look if this was real there would be 100,000s involved and we can't find one of them....

5) 9/11 is an inside job

This is possible, but then just as much possible that it was terrorist if not even more likely. In a government conspiracy theory I would say they were still terrorists that did it with airplanes, but were backed by our government. To say the towers were not brought down by the aircraft it would once again take 1000 of people involved and a huge money trail…. There just isn’t any

6) Food conspiracies (fluoride, chemicals, etc.) are there to reduce population

Well first if this was true than it would have been a failure, and second it is not in underdevelopment countries where you would want to focus population reduction. If these chemicals ended up being bad for humans I would think it was more because of the government's stupidity than some evil genius or super powerfu,l hidden know all, group.

7) Paranormal activities are real, either because of the mind or the spirit world

There is something there, but I just do not know what it is or what to call it...

8) There were advanced prehistoric civilizations (Pyramids not built by egyptians, Baghdad battery, Atlantis, etc.)

Could be, but I would not think it was humans, but some other branch of an intelligent race long before us. The problem is we humans are just not that smart, and we need many working together with communication to put all the pieces together. In our past we were both small numbers and isolated in small groups. Looking at our past great gains in civilization they only came about from well established trade routes and war cross the continents. For most of our human existence we just survived with 100,000s of years between small advancements. Go back 1 or 2 million years and there just isn’t much of anything since we were not much of anything.

9) We are seeing Alien UFO's, or Future Men's UFO's

I say neither, but if I had to pick I would say our future selves. This can be grouped with my answer to the first two questions.

10) HAARP controls weather.

It could be, and if it isn't I'm still not sure if it is a good tool for mankind or something bad.

The bottom line to the differences between skeptics and true believers is how much proof is needed to convince. Every one of us is a skeptic in something and also most likely a true believer in something else. I just look at the evidence provided and make my call.

Many topics have tons of data in books/reports, eye witnesses, self proclaim experts, film etc, but after adding all of this up these topics are still only theories and not proof positive. One of my jokes is I will believe in aliens when someone throws a dead one up on my kitchen table, and that is the bottom line here in the real proof just never quite turns up.



[edit on 22-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by nablator
You want to know what changed my opinion about the subjects proposed by the OP ? Believers. When I started reading ATS in 2007 I thought I was a believer. Who convinced me that 911 is definitely NOT an inside job ? Alex Jones. What would make a believer again out of me? Much better evidence. Or a frontal lobotomy.

nablator, your story is identical in most aspects to mine. Like you I came to ATS thinking I was a 'believer' so to speak. I thought I had an open mind but what I quickly realized was that many 'believers' minds on this forum are so open that their brains have fallen out.

I didn't have to visit many threads before I realized that anyone thinking critically was frowned upon and called stupid names like dis-info agent etc. Talk about rabid paranoia! I was actually shocked by some of the bizarre behavior that is allowed to manifest and spread like a disease around here.

Anyhow, it forced me to take stock of myself and review my own standpoints. To look at them honestly and say, "is this just what I want to be true"? In most cases, the answers were yes. It goes without saying that wanting something to be true doesn't make it so.

In my time on this forum, I have learned to look at things for what they are without letting my own emotions & wishes get in the way... but apparently that makes me a g-man in the eyes of some extreme people here.

Kinda makes me laugh though.

IRM

Yes, IRM. Conspiracy nuts shoot themselves in the foot very often. They are their own worse enemy. They taught me about skepticism. How many times did we hear that "smoking gun" evidence is available, that disclosure about the ET presence is imminent?

Originally posted by seb2882
Yes, that is true. But then according to your other post, would you believe if someone with certain "credentials" (i.e. the government, scientists) tells you they are real?

If it makes some kind of rational logical sense, yeah, I would consider to be true, but not always. For example, how many times has science been totally WRONG? How many times has government been WRONG (or lied to us)? Know what I mean?

Originally posted by bluwaterman
So if I had a video of O.J. chopping his ex wifes head off, his alibi of I was at home with whatever that guys name was, would've overidden my video?

If his alibi was verifiable, yeah, I would have to override your (now) suspicious video. Your video could have been faked, it could have been someone that looked like him on your tape. There would "reasonable doubt" in such a situation. I'd rather see a guilty person walk away free than risk convicting someone that was innocent. Here where I live, there is someone out there that does look exactly like me. For years I've heard from people that swear they have seen me where I never was. Then like 10 years ago I saw a picture of THAT person in the newspaper working out on some exercise bike in an article about health and I was shocked at what I saw .. that guy sure damn looked like me. For a week after that article ran, people kept mentioning that they saw me pictured in that article, but I swear, it wasn't me. Yeah, I exercise a lot, but I've never ridden on an exercise bike in some health club. I was almost tempted to try to track down and locate and meet that person. The resemblance was unbelievable, even I was left speechless. I just hope that guy never turns to a life of crime and starts robbing banks, ha, or I'm in big trouble if I don't have a valid verifiable alibi.

Originally posted by seb2882
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Let me rephrase the premise: take a solution on one of the topics I listed (or any other one you think is appropiate) and make a plausible solution for that difficult or imposible scenario to be true. Like another user before who claimed that in order to prove UFO aliens, he should get a UFO down, get greeted by an alien and make a tour on its ship.

You seem to be missing my point. Until it happens I doubt we can imagine how it will happen. IF there are means of traveling the galaxy at a reasonable rate we don't have a clue what they would be.