This Immature Believers vs. Debunkers war...

It has gotta go, people!

I have not been a member for so very many years, but still I say things were better in the past.
Nowadays, thread after thread are being hi-jacked and polluted by totally pointless ranting in both directions about who is right and who is not. The rethorics and behaviour is just below ground water level. It is boring to read and contributes to nothing but limited band-width.

Let us settle this:

ET's visiting earth may exist.

Hoaxes do exist.

This is why I strongly believe in the UFO/ET concept:

The vast number of "qualified" witness reports such as senior officers, pilots and such. Often together with captured radar/IR sequences.
Astronauts reporting sightings in space.
The STS footages are in some cases extraordinary.
The idea that 100% of all sightings and reports should be hoaxes or mistakes is just too far out.
My own, personal experiences that has left me baffeled and amazed.

STILL:
During recent times, hoaxes (some of them very poor) seem to come as a flood together with the increased public interest in the subject.
One must wait and investigate everything before posting something so juvenile and ignorant like "undeniable proof".
This word "proof" must not be taken so lightly. There is no "proof" until these beings step out from their crafts and make a public statement about their existance and purpose. Until that day, all we have is speculations.

To you who post "undeniable proof", "un-debunkable" or "evidence" -threads:
Can't just, please, stop it? Please?
And, for God's grace, would you please quit with the following:

Why don't you try to debunk this!

or:

Where are the sceptiks now, huh?

or:

Debunker, please stay off this thread...you make me pee my pants

If you are so bloody sure about your finings, which in 99% of the cases, you did not even witness yourselves, why can't you take any critisism?

I come to ATS for the debunking. And you know why? Becasue I like to deny ignorance and find the truth. I don't know about you, but I would rather have a nice find debunked and thrashed than walking around and believing blindly in a lie. Is that so hard to understand?

And to you "debunkers":
Enough with the snug remarks and witty comments. Your work is needed and in most of the cases, valid. But that is no reason to act like you own the place.
Be gentle, be kind. Don't fall for the invitations to smack the posts of "lesser insight" on the head. Just post detailed facts and be open.
If you fully and totally reject the idea of "other worldly" visitors, why do you even bother to visit the UFO/ET forum?

With this said, and with myself feeling like a grumpy old geezer, I end my OP. Thank you for reading.

/Rant master Raud

One last thing;

Cut the worn-out jokes about "swamp gas", "venus", "chinese lanterns" and "weather baloons" out.
It wasn't even funny the first time.

Besides, in most of the recent cases, baloons and lanterns are in fact what the sighting is made of. I'm sorry. Get over it.

Well aren't you feeding into it all by starting a rather provocative thread like this? I don't really see the point of all this to be honest. People are always going to interpret UFO events in their own way. Your ranting here and pushing your own believes will not change that.

[edit on 22-4-2009 by timelike]

Yes, sadly you are right: there's a trend to divide the posters in two categories, while they should never forget that there's a third one: those who simply are interested in the phenomenon and want to get as close as possible to the truth, trying to do some serious research rather than focusing on personal reciprocal attacks. You did put into words what i've been thinking to myself since months (but the trend increased recently), especially because those type of threads, characterized by childish behaviors in both sides, add nothing to the research, make us all look as a bunch of idiots, transfor some possible serious debate in something similar to some streetfight whatsoever and distract the mass from the good cases: and some good ones were posted, even recently, but got quickly buried under the weight of such a nonsense: whenever i read in the OP sentences like "Why don't you try to debunk this! " i carry on disgusted (pointing it out just in case someone is wondering why i don't post in many threads), regardless the possible importance of the case in question. Your OP, in my humble opinion, should be a mandatory reading for all those who created this situation, because i'm firmly convinced that many of them are able to move one step back.
In the meantime, thank you for your very intelligent, well reasoned and balanced OP, and WELCOME BACK

Originally posted by timelike
Well aren't you feeding into it all by starting a rather provocative thread like this? I don't really see the point of all this to be honest. People are always going to interpret UFO events in their own way. Your ranting here and pushing your own believes will not change that.

[edit on 22-4-2009 by timelike]

Hmm, I can see you point.

Yet, I just want to make some people here think before posting, you know; burst their bubble so to speak. Let them know there are an increasing number of members being real bothered about the situation.
That is my intention.

reply to post by internos


Hehe, that is why some of us have R.A.T.S!

And the famous second line to back it up with!

SO WHAT?!

Honestly, the sensitivity of people like you slays me.

"Play nice." "Stop saying..."

I will say what needs to be said (within the bounds of propriety) on this site when stupid things are said ("undeniable proof" or "CIA/Bush/Halliburton" claims.)

I would expect others to do the same when I would say something stupid (hate filled speech as an example.)

Free speech is a beautiful thing...dive in and swim. The water is fine.

I should really not fall for this...but I will!

Originally posted by crmanager
SO WHAT?!

I know "what": the quality of ATS is yet again declining. Haven't you read the staff U2U's that keep coming? It's like two every week now. Something is wrrrong!

Honestly, the sensitivity of people like you slays me.

Yes, but everytime we slay you in a new way! You fell for it too, didn't you? Feel slain all you want dear sir.

"Play nice." "Stop saying..."

Yeah, yeah, it is getting pretty old now I know... But every once in a while it needs to be said. Maybe one in a hundered will get it and by then, ATS has been made a tiny inch better...hopefully?

I will say what needs to be said (within the bounds of propriety) on this site when stupid things are said ("undeniable proof" or "CIA/Bush/Halliburton" claims.)

I guess. But don't enrage the "little people". They come with harmless intent (eh...) and it is crazy easy to pick cheap points of them. Still, you just stir the ant hill and another 5+ pages of pure crap is being produced. A small cost for you feeling like a wiseguy maybe, but a real bothering burden for us who try to make something of this site.

I would expect others to do the same when I would say something stupid (hate filled speech as an example.)

You have been served!

Free speech is a beautiful thing...dive in and swim. The water is fine.

Correction: The water was fine! Now it is turning ever murkier...

Wow, your response is like walking through mud. Not quite sure where you are going.

"EVery day another u2u..."

Again so what?

I have come to the conclusion that when people say "I want an honset discussion..." it means one of two things

1. " I only want people who agree with me to respond."

2. "Don't poke fun at my thoughts."

We have had threads on "Parasite Jewish Bankers."
"Undeniable proof that NASA lied"

When one puts out STUPID statements out such as these they are begging for a written beating.

Don't join the game if it is too tough.

S&F to the OP

I agree with their statements. It is annoying to read 'debunk this' or the other types of braying from both sides of the fence.

Respect people's views, even if they're wrong, or you consider them wrong.
Sometimes, what you read might inspire you to something else, but that wont happen if you have to jump whole chunks of threads because of the childish prattle

That's a lot of the reason I will not even give some people my ear. Criticism is one thing and rudeness is something else altogether. Too many people see any piece of evidence or any claim and start being rude to people about it. That is the ultimate kind of immaturity.

wow arent you the hypocrite

thanks for your opinions.... now exuse me wile i debunk them

Originally posted by crmanager...I have come to the conclusion that when people say "I want an honset discussion..." it means one of two things

1. " I only want people who agree with me to respond."

2. "Don't poke fun at my thoughts."

We have had threads on "Parasite Jewish Bankers."
"Undeniable proof that NASA lied"

When one puts out STUPID statements out such as these they are begging for a written beating....

I agree that threads such as these deserve a rebuttal -- but that rebuttal should be intelligently crafted to show the flaws in that poster's claims/logic.

Being deliberately acerbic in your rebuttal strictly for the sake of "beating down" another poster serves only to make readers dismiss your rebuttal as a meaningless personal attack -- even if that rebuttal actually contained a valid argument.

Ad hominem arguments are flawed by their definition. Attack the claim, not the person making the claim.

Originally posted by Raud
...There is no "proof" until these beings step out from their crafts and make a public statement about their existance and purpose. ...

Yeah, except even then people won't believe it. Remember, scientists that SAW the Wright Brothers fly their plane said it was a hoax and/or a magic trick. It took about 3 years before people actually believed that man could fly a heavier-than-air craft.

Originally posted by Raud

Why don't you try to debunk this!

or:

Where are the sceptiks now, huh?

or:

Debunker, please stay off this thread...you make me pee my pants

If you are so bloody sure about your finings, which in 99% of the cases, you did not even witness yourselves, why can't you take any critisism?

Just post detailed facts and be open.
If you fully and totally reject the idea of "other worldly" visitors, why do you even bother to visit the UFO/ET forum?

Wait a second now. you are being a hipocrit. what is this do as you say not as you do. huh, huh, say already.


I'm just kidding,

The way I see it the debunkers are just as important to a topic as the believers. if the debunkers wernt there then the topic would just run rampid with alot of BS because no one is there to chalange anything and make the "believers" actully take a step back and evaluate what they are saying. Not to say that they change their minds but just to help sort the facts from the fiction. of course it could be done more tactfuly but you know as well as i do, the safty the key board and moniter offer make people who are otherwise quiet spoken and shy alittle more bold and it gives kids and teenagers a way to be disrespectful to adults with the safty of anonymity. Sure it sucks but that is just the way it is.

Raud,

Can I tell you precisely what *I* think the problem is? (And by the way, a lot of what I'm about to post here is shown by a few of the posters within your own thread) It's that people forget how to primarily read. Secondarily how to interpret.

Back in 2006 Springer started this thread:

UFO Forum READ BEFORE POSTING

Which to me being able to both a) Read and b) interpret what I've read, seems to me that a T&C directive is being given.

Now, in the spirit of that I would like to say that I agree with you 100%, however I would also like to say that this entire thread is unnecessary and I only respond to it because I felt the need to point that out.

Perhaps you should simply have started a thread with a slightly less inflammatory title in which you direct all those who DON'T know how to properly open their minds up to seeing all sides of an argument/discussion/debate/criticism(positive or negative), to exactly the thread I posted above.

P.S. (It was stickied by a site owner for a reason I imagine)



AB1

Originally posted by Raud
Yet, I just want to make some people here think before posting, you know; burst their bubble so to speak. Let them know there are an increasing number of members being real bothered about the situation.
That is my intention.

Well to be honest I don't think your thread will achieve that- look at the devicive heated comments it has already generated. Surley it's the job of the moderators to step in when things become to much? Other than that, from my skeptical point of view at least, people who post sensational nonsense and get frightfully upset when their views are challanged, should perhaps post elsewhere?

[edit on 22-4-2009 by timelike]

Hello all good fellow members, I read all the replies, and as always I am glad to get the input, both positive and negative.

Now I just need a good post to keep this ship from sinking...ehe

I will give you some examples:

As I already mentioned, I do believe in "UFO's". Just saying that is in itself kind of stupid, because that means literally that I believe in Unidentified Flying Objects. I mean, that could be anything! If I see something in the sky, far, far away it is always an UFO since I can't identify it.
This kind of low-grade arguments I see alot of in threads; "debunkers" making fun out of believers since they post "proof" of a UFO.
I know you can't possibly "prove" something that is unidentified. So, the threads derail already at that point: someone says they have a "real UFO" vid or pic and the sceptic (of lesser quality) turn it into a game of words making the "believer" look like an idiot just because the use of the term UFO. The "believer" don't get it and interpret this as an attack on the "proof" itself.
Blah, blah, blah so you have 2 or 3 pages of that crap circulating again.
Very amusing, not.
I can bet my sorry month's salary that nobody who should read this and take it into mind will actually to so. Bleh.

What I find even more sad is people who believe for the sake of believeing. This is not only harmful to the discussion, but to the persons themselves doing so.
The final drop was the OP that contained something like this:

Debunkers, please stay off this thread. They make me scared...

I don't know if I need to add anything more to the above... But I can give you an example of how I made myself look like a complete idiot, and it made me a better man in the long run, goddamit!
Once upon a time in "Raudtopia" there was an overwhelmingly strong belief in a foregin celestial body that was said to more or less collide with our own orbital pattern. Not did it only come out as a tread in R.A.T.S where it said that "debunkers" were of no interest, only the discussion about the fact that this phenomenon was upcoming, but the population in "Raudtopia" kept spreading the information, or disinformation among other utopias with fiery conviction IRL...
Until the gentle bliss of a compassionate, proffesional and gentle debunker made entrance in the R.A.T.S-thread and very systematicly dismanteled the claim and left "Raudtopia" with one less illusion to commit to but one enormous chunk of gained (bitter) insight.
In its trail came a confused, but relieved, emotion of shame and enlightment.

You get this? It is hard to take a stand, but even harder to take a fall, I know. But when you fall from your high horse and you smack your head against the bottom, you might just pound some sense into it...

So, as your claims and convictions get turned over and disproven to hell and beyond; please, just please, consider the benefits of standing corrected.

Now for some personal replies:

@Soylent Green Is People:
You should have written this thread, not me.
You seem to master this language far beyond my skills...

@sir_chancealot:
For real? Was unaware of that...but it sure makes alot of sense.
Hmm, well then, "they" must go for some extra fancy show at their "grand arrival". In fact, better make it "supah fancy"!

@DaleGribble:
Yes, this is the most rotten aspect of it all; kids acting like kids just for the hell of it. That is why I prefer(-red) ATS above other forums; it seemed to keep that at low level. Now, it is ever increasing. Don't like, don't like... '

@alphabetaone:
Unnecessary...I don't know. Maybe we can mobilize something?
But I know what you mean. Glad you chose to contribute though!

@timelike:
The heated comments just proves my case and shows just how bad it has become. It is a great challange for me too you know; being a master at ranting, it takes the full effort from every inch of my body not to discharge the napalm at these provocations... But I always say to myself; what good will it do? If I can't answer that question with anyhing constructive, I just let it pass (and rant in my brain only).
Still, one must understand that this thread is the offspring of reading miles and miles of pointless insults, wild claims presented as proof, childish name calling and the rest of the blah blah blah's... Until I just got honestly sad and tired, considering looking for something else than ATS to share my thoughts.
But, as I realized how much the site owners themselves shook their heads in dispair, I felt compassion in their struggle.
By this thread I would like to show that my support for ATS is still strong and that I am tried of having my favourite forum more or less pissed upon!

Nuff said!

Mild mannered CRManager during the day...
The uncanny Logician Magician when the sun goes down!

Hehehe, I jest! But seriously, your writing and argument styles are almost identical.

Anyway, I'm not usually baited into asinine arguments that easily, (just compare my join date with my ATS points to see) but found myself in one just recently. What a waste of time. It's kinda like someone standing in front of you in line at Starbucks that insists on arguing and haggling over the price of a cup of coffee. It's aggravating to everyone behind him. The prices are listed, if you don't like it/want it then speak your piece and move the hell on.

But I guess I should take my own advice and go to another 'coffee shop'. Problem is, these jokers are turning up just about everywhere there is to go. I'm not talking about real debunking/skepticism/critical thinking, but those who arrogantly scoff just to scoff and/or add nothing to the conversation at hand.

Well, in the spirit of this thread I'd like to apologize for any 'haggling' I may have done.

The thing that gets to me, is not only the "name game", but now its like a little group of people use the same lame jokes over and over again in almost every damn thread I read now. They'll say things like, "oh, where are the skeptics now. I guess its just swamp gas, or a balloon, or ice particles, etc etc". But then, when its finally debunked without a doubt, then the same friggin members will come out, and act like they knew it was a fake/hoax the entire time.

And not to step on any toes here, but I'm not a fan of these threads either. I rather get to the material at hand, then just debate on where I stand on the subject. Again, not trying to start anything with you.