Churchill: God of the NeoCons

I just ran across a fascinating article on Winston Churchill. Forget about what you thought you knew about the man. Dig a little deeper and you might be shocked to learn that the architect of modern Iraq and WW2 hero wasn't nearly as heroic as we've all been led to believe. How many of you know that he ordered the use of poison gas to quell tribal uprisings in Iraq? It's true. So, that would put him in the same category as the tyrant Saddam Hussein.



Churchill for dummies
Winston S. Churchill is the hero of George W. Bush and the neocons. But, says Michael Lind, they know very little about the great wartime leader. If they did, they�d be horrified Soon after the installation by the Republican-majority Supreme Court of George the Second of the House of Bush, the American people learned that they had a new Founding Father: Winston Churchill. President George W. Bush let it be known that he had placed a bust of the British statesman in the White House Oval Office he had inherited from his dad. After the attack on the World Trade Center, the President�s speeches became self-consciously Churchillian. Earlier this year, marking the opening of a Churchill exhibition at the Library of Congress, Bush observed that Churchill was not just �the rallying voice of the second world war� but also �a prophet of the Cold War�.
www.antiwar.com...

Churchill also proposed the carpet bombing of Ireland at the time of the Irish war of independance .
I believe one of his famous radio speeches was delivered by an actor as the man himself was passed out inebriated at the time of the broadcast .

Ha! I never heard about that (the faker on the radio). That's pretty funny. He was a drinker, that's for sure.

When I began researching Iraq/Mesopotamia long ago, I was shocked, to say the least, at what I discovered regarding Churchill. That's stuff you ain't neva gonna learn in U.S. schools.

Being that he gassed the Iraqis - I would say that puts the esteemed leader right on par with Saddam.

heres another one for you east coast

not sure i can substantiate this one but here goes
supposedly [this came from an ex british para ] during world war 2 the tommies were using prolactics[condoms] to cover over the magazines for the bren guns so as to keep them dry , however the army issue wasn't large enough and a recquisition order was drafted to manufacture larger ones, this appeared in front of Churchill to sign which he did with the stipulation that the boxes be marked "made in britain ,size small"

funny story ,don't know how much truth there is in it !!

Too weird! In the Gulf War we used 'em too, to cover the muzzles of our weapons. Could not for the life of us keep our weapons clean. What a nightmare that was. And God knows, those who had M-16 A1's were pretty much screwed. They jam every third shot it seems, if they have a speck of dirt inside. The M-16 A2's were a lot better.

cs-people.bu.edu...

according to this site alledgedly the sppeches were on the eve of ww11 and the actor portrayed winnie the pooh !!

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by dahei]

Thanks for the link. Good quotes. This is my favorite Churchill quote of all times (used in the move "JFK" concerning the conspiracy):

David Ferry: "This is A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

At the time I didn't know it was from Churchill.




[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

www.churchillbooks.com...

here is an article refuting the allegations .
hitchens is generally a well qualified and respected historian.
[i personally know that London was informed of Japanease air activity prior to pearl harbour ,i had the pleasure of knowing a merchant seaman radio opperator as a child who intercepted radio traffic from the japanease planes and advised the admiralty of this .
If they took this seriously ,could have anticipated thier intent or had time to warn the U.S we can only speculate , had Churchill prior knowledge from intelligance again is speculative though the suspicion has lingered ]

Thanks for the link.

FDR had prior knowledge and chose to allow Pearl Harbor to be attacked. He knew it was the only sure way to get isolatonist-minded America to enter the war. Once the U.S. declared war on Japan, it was at war with Germany by default.

FDR ain't the prince everyone thinks he is, either. So, I guess he and Churchill are one in the same.



[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
How many of you know that he ordered the use of poison gas to quell tribal uprisings in Iraq? It's true. So, that would put him in the same category as the tyrant Saddam Hussein.

Just curious: did it ever get past the point of advocation?

As colonial secretary in 1919, Churchill wanted to use gas against the �unco-operative Arabs� in Iraq.

Are you asking if he ever got to the point of actually gassing them - as opposed to calling for it? If that's the question, than yes, according to my research. It was pretty heinous. They sprayed entire villages from the air. Churchill was a balls to the wall, no nonsense kind of guy. He meant bidness.

How DARE you speak like that about Sir Winston Churchill. How would you like it if I spoke like that about great American men? Churchill is regarded, quite rightly, as a hero throughout the world. If it wasn't for him, all of Europe would now be under Nazi rule.

So what if Churchill knew that the Pearl Harbour attack would happen? Look at Bush - he knew that the September 11th attacks would actually happen before they happened.

And you have no room to talk about Churchill "gassing" people - the US sold chemicals to Saddam in the 1980's that he used to gas the Kurds to death with in 1988, but the US turned a blind eye to it because at the time the US was Iraq's ally.

And what did the US do to try and stop the Luftwaffe from bombing British cities in World War II? The US KNEW the Luftwaffe would bomb our cities, but did you do anything to try and stop it? No. You didn't. That's just the same as Churchill doing nothing to stop the Pearl Harbour attacks. Maybe that was the right thing to do, cos if it never happened the US would NEVER have joined the war and would have never helped Britain even though you knew what was going on. So why should we have helped you ieven if we knew you would be attacked?

Originally posted by GreatBriton
How DARE you speak like that about Sir Winston Churchill. How would you like it if I spoke like that about great American men?

have you read the t/o/s/ here it's a forum of debate ,feel free no leader is sacrosanct.

Churchill is regarded, quite rightly, as a hero throughout the world. If it wasn't for him, all of Europe would now be under Nazi rule.

i've no recollection of churchill firing a shot let alone single handedly fighting the nazi hoard in his bowler hat

So what if Churchill knew that the Pearl Harbour attack would happen? Look at Bush - he knew that the September 11th attacks would actually happen before they happened.

evidence ?

And you have no room to talk about Churchill "gassing" people - the US sold chemicals to Saddam in the 1980's that he used to gas the Kurds to death with in 1988, but the US turned a blind eye to it because at the time the US was Iraq's ally.

i believe it was an historic first , the first time chemical weapons were used on non combatents .

Well of course Churchill is Dubya's idol - comparing Churchill's history to GWB's recent actions, it can be said that they are both patriotic fools who are exploitng the power they have.

Originally posted by GreatBriton
How DARE you speak like that about Sir Winston Churchill. How would you like it if I spoke like that about great American men?

You might want to develop a thicker skin.

Churchill is regarded, quite rightly, as a hero throughout the world. If it wasn't for him, all of Europe would now be under Nazi rule.

Look into the powers behind the curtain. The men who created Hitler. Look into Churchill's military record regarding Mesopotamia. Or don't. You might not like what you find.

So what if Churchill knew that the Pearl Harbour attack would happen?

So What? Now that I take issue with. Forget about our great leaders - those Americans that died at Pearl Harbor scream out for justice and honor! Damn Churchill and FDR for their prior knowledge and silence! Damn them into perpetuity for allowing those brave souls to perish! And what an horrific end they met! Just so FDR could hoodwink our reluctant nation into joining a war that had nothing to do with us!

Look at Bush - he knew that the September 11th attacks would actually happen before they happened.

YES! And he and his highest officials one and all should be impeached and charged with both treason and war crimes!

And you have no room to talk about Churchill "gassing" people - the US sold chemicals to Saddam in the 1980's that he used to gas the Kurds to death with in 1988, but the US turned a blind eye to it because at the time the US was Iraq's ally.

Easy, there Mate. The Brits have just as much blood on their hands in this case. Take a look at the companies/countries who gave Saddam his weapons prior to running afoul of the masters. You're right there with the USA on that count.

Originally posted by GreatBriton
And what did the US do to try and stop the Luftwaffe from bombing British cities in World War II? The US KNEW the Luftwaffe would bomb our cities, but did you do anything to try and stop it? No. You didn't.

At that time America was very isolationist. We had no dog in that fight, so to speak. We were not all globally intwined as we are now. The USA historically (from WW2 back) was against meddling in the affairs of foreign nations. Read the words of our founding fathers. They warned us against that folly. They were a brilliant lot.

[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]