Infinity is illogical

Within the scinetific community, it seems like alot of problems regarding finding answers, involves science trying to make the illogical, logical. I'm not sure why dogs enjoy chasing their tails, but I'm sure it's out of ignorance, so I'll let them have their fun.

Systems are real and logical processes. Systems work. Our universe is a system, therefore a logical process.

No amount of time is = to ANY fraction of infinity. Yet, here we are, living in a logical system. It makes sense. Infinity is incompatible with logic.

Infinity sounds like a cool idea. But it's not logical within the logical framework we use to measure our universe.

Time for a change of ideas.

Systems are real and logical processes.

Based on what proof are they real? They may seem logical, only in as far as our intellectual capacity allows.

Systems work.

Only to a certain degree of accuracy. We can never calculate infinite accuracy.

Our universe is a system, therefore a logical process.

Is this a statement of absolute, universal truth? Or simply a subjective approximation? Just because the universe SEEMS logical, it would still be wise to consider the possibility that it is not, or indeed, both logical and illogical at the same time!

No amount of time is = to ANY fraction of infinity.

Makes sense to me.

Yet, here we are, living in a logical system.

As far as we can tell. But as far as we can tell would not appear to be very far at all!

Infinity is incompatible with logic.

I would tend to agree. Infinity transcends logic and mathematics.

Infinity sounds like a cool idea. But it's not logical within the logical framework we use to measure our universe.

Time for a change of ideas.

I agree. Maths and science are beginning to show their limitations. What we must consider is that the truth is something so unfathomably strange, that we will never be able to comprehend it.

Originally posted by tobiascore
Within the scinetific community, it seems like alot of problems regarding finding answers, involves science trying to make the illogical, logical. I'm not sure why dogs enjoy chasing their tails, but I'm sure it's out of ignorance, so I'll let them have their fun.

Systems are real and logical processes. Systems work. Our universe is a system, therefore a logical process.

No amount of time is = to ANY fraction of infinity. Yet, here we are, living in a logical system. It makes sense. Infinity is incompatible with logic.

Infinity sounds like a cool idea. But it's not logical within the logical framework we use to measure our universe.

Time for a change of ideas.

Define logical, define systems, define work, etc.

The funny thing about words in a language is that they are similar to axioms, if not axioms. One defines the word logical, then describes processes with their newly developed word.

Analogously, this can be applied to mathematics in regards to the number line and the definition of infinity. It seems mathematics has defined (+)infinity as ever progressing forward along the number line. Conversely, this movement is applied to (-)infinity.

As far as anything out of the realm of this mathematical definition, I do not see how it is possible for humans to grasp the notion of infinity, infinitesimal, and "nothingness".

Im tired. ttyl



EDIT: The idea of scope actually may help us in our endeavor to understand infinity.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Unlimitedpossibilities]

Now we're getting into the realm of an objective reality system, which I do not buy. Objectivly, I do not think infinity is logical. Subjectivly, you can make it logical.

I'm talking scientific terms science uses to define our universe.

Like Niels Bohr said: "It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we say about Nature.".

reply to post by tobiascore


I kind of agree that infinity is illogical from a human stand point but that's only reflective of our finite wisdom.

IMHO infinity is real. I can't imagine a border where reality meets nothing. Just the fact that we can associate a name and a concept to nothing means it is actually a 'something'. True nothingness (if it exists) is something beyond words and perception.

IRM

I see no reason why infinity is illogical. Using time as an example, we use infinity because there is no reason that we currently no of, except for the apocalypse, for time to ever come to an end. Therefore we need something such as infinity to represent something that as far as we know has no limit.

I might just be tired, beer buzzed, and not thinking straight - but I didn't think scientists ever really endorsed the idea of "Infinity". Generally they use it to refer to numbers describing phenomena which in reality have finite parameters but are beyond our capability to really compute or even understand.

It's like the universe... I occasionally hear that it's infinite - yet it is also only about 14 billion years old and apparently is roughly spherical in shape. If it has shape, it has dimensions, which means it's not infinite. If it's expanding, and has an age, then it has an edge - thus it's not infinite in size either. For all practical terms and within the limits of our understanding, however, it's pretty much infinite because it's far larger than anything we can ever hope to comprehend in any meaningful sense.

Infinity in mathematics, I think, merely means the extrapolation of a trend in either direction essentially endlessly. Solving for Pi cannot be done, as far as I understand, because it is an infinite number. The furthers out we've been able to solve for it even with the advent of computers is somewhere in the quadrillionths decimal place I think. So we commonly just truncate Pi to 3.14159265 and call it a day for most practical applications.

But again, I'm beer buzzed, and I'm not sure if I'm thinking straight... Anyone else care to elaborate?

No amount of time is = to ANY fraction of infinity.

I'm not sure if this is correct. Time is generally referred to as a dimension, the fourth dimension. However, if it's a dimension of our universe, then it exists within our universe. Our universe had a beginning, and may have an end if the "Big Rip" scenarios are right. That means time itself, is finite, starting about 14 billion years ago to whenever billions of years in the future.

Time is finite.

However it can also be infinite. I don't recall ever hearing of a bottom layer to the measurement of time. It's a smooth continual progression with no breaks or separations. This means you can take a fraction of time (such as a second) and keep slicing it over and over again into increasingly smaller sections and never actually stop. Essentially, infinity.

Space is the same way, but as I understand it, there may actually be a "fabric" of space that constitutes the lowest resolution of reality. The problem is, however, that the energy required to scan an area of space that small would require more energy than is present in the universe. Space is, for all practical purposes, infinitely small.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Lasheic]

Humans are not infinite, and can't really comprehend infinity. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible, just beyond us.

I think that matter and energy is only finite for a time. If they are finite at all. Every matter is changing within its own cycle of time.
But with some matter it is harder to observe the changes because the changes are so small. But everything will change with time and become other matters or energies.

Originally posted by tobiascore
Within the scinetific community, it seems like alot of problems regarding finding answers, involves science trying to make the illogical, logical. I'm not sure why dogs enjoy chasing their tails, but I'm sure it's out of ignorance, so I'll let them have their fun.

If the concept of infinity is illogical, how come you could start this thread?
If the concept is illogical, calculus wouldn't work, and without calculus, you are pretty much stuck in the 15th century -- no laptops.

Tail-chasing dogs were the first to ponder the issue of infinity. Man joined the pondering much, much later.

I'm going to make this quite blunt...



Infinity seems illogical because human logic isn't infinite.

Originally posted by tobiascore

No amount of time is = to ANY fraction of infinity. Yet, here we are, living in a logical system. It makes sense. Infinity is incompatible with logic.

sure.. that makes sense..
based on the current framework you've been indoctrinated through your five senses and information you've absorbed...
you view time as well as you can.. through those glasses tinted by what you've come to "know"...

and your idea of what "logic" is.. is based on what you "know", right?

well what if you don't "know" everything?
what if there's actually "more to know" *gasp*..
and that upon learning more.. we broaden our spectrum of what we conclude to as "logical" and "illogical"

rationality is relevantly concurrent with your frame of reference.

if that frame of reference *2nd gasp* EXPANDS.. then we have more "logic" to deal with and what seemed 'illogical' would then seem perfectly logical.

what if we realize that the illusion of linear time is only for the budding larvae-stage of an intelligent species to percieve experience through?
and that the REALITY of what we call 'time' is actually a fractal non-linear field?
one that exists endlessly in all dimensions?
no 'past' no 'future' only the 'now' that you choose to collectively decide upon?

Originally posted by tobiascore
Time for a change of ideas.

I think you should take your own advice and re-think things a bit before dissing the idea of infinity.

anything 'finite' has boundaries and barriers.
what's behind those barriers? another "space" that has yet another barrier?
what's behind THAT barrier then?

in my current understanding of things.. infinity is completely logical.



a nice way to illustrate it is in this animated GIF I saw once...

.. if toast always lands butter side down...
and cats always land on their feet..
then we just duct tape a buttered piece of toast .. butter side up..
to a the back of a cat..
and toss it!
infinite loop achieved!




-

Tell me at the beginning of time what was before that?

Tell me at the end of the universe what is beyond that?

I think I've made my point.

Infinity appears illogical but maybe paradox is a more accurate term, if no more helpful If we look at maths, infinity is needed. A recurring decimal requires the concept. 5 divided by 3 is 1.6667 recurring and must be infinite. If I cut my birthday into three equal parts it demonstrates that the number can't be infinite and it ends where the next slice begins...

One of my favorite 'illogicals' is the beginning of life. At a point in time, somewhere, something inanimate became animate. What fraction of a second played host to that event? Before the 'big bang', what fraction of a second played host to 'nothing' before 'something' became?

Abstract paradoxes like 'infinity' at least give us a springboard when diving into the unknown...who knows?

Fractals are infinite. Watch this video and try to ignore his ignorant religious babble other than the ark of the covenant.

Nassim Haramein Fractal Universe

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Wertdagf]

Actually, I've made this point before.


Here you are --->

___
|O|
¯¯¯

Here I am --->

___
| | O
¯¯¯


Point being.

There is no explanation why the universe exists, the actual manifestation, reality, being of the universe. It just simply does. There is no explanation why anything exists, why anything ever existed, or when everything came into existance, meaning, why is there one singular sub atomic particle, and not just "infinite" nothing? Instead, there is substance, there is a universe, there is a manifestation, unlike the idea of infinite nothing, there is something.

Therefore, for their to be a universe, and to say it has been and always will be, strictly limits the idea of the universe to infinite, it has no measurable life span.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Revolution-2012]

i think your misinterperating the use of infinity in mathematics and physics its not this incredible thing encompassing everything out there

Infinity (symbolically represented by ∞) refers to several distinct concepts – usually linked to the idea of "without end" – which arise in philosophy, mathematics, and theology. The word comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness."

In mathematics, "infinity" is often used in contexts where it is treated as if it were a number (i.e., it counts or measures things: "an infinite number of terms") but it is a different type of "number" from the real numbers. Infinity is related to limits, aleph numbers, classes in set theory, Dedekind-infinite sets, large cardinals, Russell's paradox, non-standard arithmetic, hyperreal numbers, projective geometry, extended real numbers and the absolute Infinite.

theres nothing illogical about it. it is used when a particular equation has limits that cannot be expressed in real numbers

when used in mathematics it no longer carries the philosophical implications of being all encompassing



[edit on 15-4-2009 by constantwonder]

what about Pi? is it not an infinite number?
If we measure how long it takes to calculate Pi to its end,
won't we be measuring infinity?

Anyway, it sounds like you've been listening to a little Bad Religion there.

Why should it be illogical? Has anyone prooved it to be like that? Well now it depends on what domain you are reffering to if it's math infinity is a simbol wich is used on many exercises. If you are reffering to the universe to be infinit i'd agree with you on that...endless galaxies , stars , blackwholes , suns that are naturaly there are are born without any interference...and endless space and inaccessible by humans (at least we think).

Originally posted by holyTerror
what about Pi? is it not an infinite number?
If we measure how long it takes to calculate Pi to its end,
won't we be measuring infinity?

Anyway, it sounds like you've been listening to a little Bad Religion there.

Perhaps the best-known irrational numbers are PI, e and √2.

en.wikipedia.org...

The funny thing about mathematics is that they define PI as irrational. Is irrational synonymous with illogical?


Irrational from thesaurus & Irrational from dictionary.

illogical from thesaurus.

Thus, it seems they are basically equivalent.





[edit on 15-4-2009 by Unlimitedpossibilities]