UFO/Alien Skepticism - Let's get it out in the open

reply to post by argentus


Please, indulge. A little more precision would go a ways.

You believe in proving and disproving the existance of UFOs in our airspace, as in, you believe they have been here, but you believe that many claims are false, correct?

I am a skeptic of UFOs, but there is some stuff, as in the OP, that stands out.

I find threads like this one interesting. The debate between ‘hardcore believers’ and ‘serial debunkers’ is a fascinating subject.

The division between ‘skeptics’ and ‘believers’ here on ATS is a wide one, and one that often descends into name-calling, personal attacks and the general degradation of the thread that sparked the debate. While it is sometimes fun to watch two diametrically opposed debaters go at one another until one just packs up and leaves, it does nothing to further the point of either participant. In actuality, all it does is cheapen whatever point the debater is trying to make, reducing the whole thing to a back and forth of ‘I’m right!/No, you’re wrong, I’m right!’

The labelling of anyone who exhibits skepticism as a ‘serial denier’ is erroneous, I believe (I'm not saying that anyone in this thread has done that, though). Sure, there are those that ‘deny everything’, but I don’t class those people as true skeptics, because I think it does a disservice to the term ‘skeptical’. The true skeptic (in my opinion, of course) takes no hard and fast position on a subject, and can be persuaded to change their opinion if evidence contrary to their skeptical position is presented and, ultimately, proven as fact. The point is, blind faith and catagorical denial does nothing to further our search for the truth. A healthy amount of skepticism, and the ability to accept the possibility of circumstances not readily explained as mundane, are essential to the critical thinking required to participate in this area of discussion.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by argentus

 

Please, indulge. A little more precision would go a ways.

You believe in proving and disproving the existance of UFOs in our airspace, as in, you believe they have been here, but you believe that many claims are false, correct?

I am a skeptic of UFOs, but there is some stuff, as in the OP, that stands out.

When did I ever say I believed they have been here?

reply to post by Batmanatee


Agreed, 100%

I find it unjust, that one can honestly believe countless military, government, ATCs, pilots, etc report these events and everyone of these disbelievers say's it's all a crock, but they call themselves skeptic.

When did I ever say I believed they have been here?

Gawdzilla

I never did. Have fun on your sarcastic blowing up NY and LA with silkworm missiles thread though, and thanks for fighting for your country.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by Batmanatee

 

Agreed, 100%

I find it unjust, that one can honestly believe countless military, government, ATCs, pilots, etc report these events and everyone of these disbelievers say's it's all a crock, but they call themselves skeptic.

A skeptic asks to be convinced. Still waiting for something convincing.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Look at my last post on Page 1. If 34% of American's believe in UFOs, and out of that 34% saw them, given 1% of the 1% of 34% actually saw something real, unexplainable, that's roughly 10000 people in the US alone. All theory, but honestly, think about it.

All these people say they've seen UFOs because of what, they want attention, and ridicule?

I saw one, I don't go around blabber mouthing about it, I keep to myself about it, but what I saw was not explainable, simply put. Call me delirious, call me a drug addict, whatever you want, I was 11 and what I saw was real.

reply to post by Revolution-2012

short answer: I believe in UFOs. My mind is open to both the proving and disproving of the phenomenon

.

I think that was fairly precise, but yes, I think there is a lot of info that comes our way that is intentionally created to falsify UFO evidence, for a variety of reasons. That, plus the inception of CGI has made it difficult to produce real, measurable, valid evidence.

I am a photographer, a hobbyist. I am never without a camera. I'm conscious, primarily through participation here at ATS, what criteria makes a good "shot", and that video is preferrable over the more easily modified photo. So, I look, and I stargaze, and watch the ISS and other satellites, and attempt nearly every sunset to photograph the green flash. ... and yes, on occasion, I have said out loud while awaiting a shot, "I wish you would come........ right now." If I am ever seriously injured, they will have a hell of a time prying my fingers off the comfortable yellow plastic of my Pellican case.

TMI?

Edit to..... make sense ;o)

[edit on 15-4-2009 by argentus]

reply to post by Revolution-2012


"Look at my last post on Page 1. If 34% of American's believe in UFOs, and out of that 34% saw them, given 1% of the 1% of 34% actually saw something real, unexplainable, that's roughly 10000 people in the US alone. All theory, but honestly, think about it."

People say they've seen angels, but I doubt them as well, unless I get proof. I don't care about hurt feelings, that's not relevant to proof. Sorry as all get out if they're insulted if I ask them to provide some concrete evidence, but without it, it's just a rumor.

p.s. I was once very adept at identifying military aircraft. I have seen a UFO six times in my life. Each time, the object displayed characteristics that were inconsistent with known (to me) flying craft. I can have my beliefs about what they were, but what I know is that they were unknown to the observer.

Cheers

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Well, your analysis is reputable but not true. You've worked for the government, they're pretty strict about the psychology of pilots, etc.

Why would they make up claims?

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Well, your analysis is reputable but not true. You've worked for the government, they're pretty strict about the psychology of pilots, etc.

Why would they make up claims?

I don't doubt that they believe that they've seen something. I doubt the interpretation of what they've seen. And until they can provide more proof I doubt it's an alien space ship. I'll happily give them "UFO" if they remember the U in UFO doesn't stand for "Millenium Falcon".

reply to post by Revolution-2012


p.s. #2....... when I talk about intentionally falsified info, I'm not referring to military, pilots, law enforcement. Those folks have everything to loose and little to gain by disclosure. I know this as much as anyone.

Cheers and out

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Do you not agree these craft have been reported in vivid detail as intelligently controlled and operating outside of the boundaries of gravity?

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Do you not agree these craft have been reported in vivid detail as intelligently controlled and operating outside of the boundaries of gravity?

I agree they have been reported as such. Until they can prove their reports, they're just assertions.

I posted in the Skeptic lovefest thread that basically the majority of self proclaimed skeptics I have witnessed here and other places instictively start out in disbelief and from there, the ones who actually post more than a simple "hoax", begin to go through the so called check list to find a match to the object in question. (for the record my post was ignored)

The problem is, when the list runs out and there is still no match these skeptics disappear from the thread or just toss out one of the usual suspects anyway even if its an unlikely match.

These skeptics never seem to go the route of.... you know I really don't know what it is, maybe it is truly a ufo for lack of any other known explanation. It just seems as though they need everything to have an earthly explanation no matter what.

Thank god for this thread.

Alot of you have the definition of skepticism all wrong. All it is is holding beleifs to a high standard of evidence. Skepticism is perfect in that it can't give a wrong answer. ever. Blind beleif can and does all the time.

Now some links.

If you listen to these you might get very angry, or you may learn alot about how foolish a bunch of things are.


cdn1.libsyn.com...


cdn1.libsyn.com...


And if you beleive without seeing, this video will blow your mind. It has everything skepticsim is about on it.

herebedragonsmovie.com...

reply to post by houdanny


I don't need to review the links my friend, as I've said earlier in the thread I don't believe in 95% of reported UFOs, however, skepticism can be wrong, and that's a fact.

How can you say the Phoenix Lights is a fake, flares, etc, when thousands of witnesses say they observed something unmistakable, something beyond gravity, and obvious to being a craft?

This is not an incident where 1, 2, 10 people claimed they saw a UFO, this is something where the WHOLE of Arizona reported seeing it. Civilians and government alike.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by houdanny

 

I don't need to review the links my friend, as I've said earlier in the thread I don't believe in 95% of reported UFOs, however, skepticism can be wrong, and that's a fact.

How can you say the Phoenix Lights is a fake, flares, etc, when thousands of witnesses say they observed something unmistakable, something beyond gravity, and obvious to being a craft?

This is not an incident where 1, 2, 10 people claimed they saw a UFO, this is something where the WHOLE of Arizona reported seeing it. Civilians and government alike.

See there in lies the problem (every pun intended). People who are not trained to observe aircraft see something unusual and all the sudden its aliens. New flash the Pheonix lights THEY WERE MILITARY FLARES.

There was in fact a squadron of planes flying in that area that night. They did in fact drop flares with little parachutes so they took a long time to fall. These flares were in fact seen to disappear over the mountains as they fell. A young man saw the planes through his telescope (but has been almost totally ignored by the press). The pilot of one of the aircraft has in fact come forward to say these very things.

If research into aliens is ever to be taken seriously believers need to go thru check lists too. Could it be something else? I was in the military when the pheonix lights story broke on the news i remember laughing immediately recognized they were flares. Look in reality most skeptics want to believe or they wouldnt bother even replying,cant speak for all but in my case i believe in unexplained aircraft seen one.But im not willing to make a leap of faith and say it was an alien. Truth is I frequent topics like this to find out what it was and often times get very disheartened by the stuff people try to pass off as proof.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
reply to post by houdanny

 

I don't need to review the links my friend, as I've said earlier in the thread I don't believe in 95% of reported UFOs, however, skepticism can be wrong, and that's a fact.

How can you say the Phoenix Lights is a fake, flares, etc, when thousands of witnesses say they observed something unmistakable, something beyond gravity, and obvious to being a craft?

This is not an incident where 1, 2, 10 people claimed they saw a UFO, this is something where the WHOLE of Arizona reported seeing it. Civilians and government alike.

EVERYBODY is Arizona agrees it was a craft? Really? Even those observers who said it was "obviously" flares?