Saudi Court Approves Pedophilia

Originally posted by Byrd
The Saudi system is the sort of legal system that was common 500 years ago. So, in Europe, 500 years ago, we find older men marrying young girls, children sold into brothels, etc, etc.

In Jewish law (I looked this up) it was permissible to marry a girl as young as three years and one day. As far as I know, this has been changed but it was the law at one time.

You may recall that in tribal areas of India, children are married as young as 8 or 9 (these are Hindu areas; not Muslim.) Most in that area of the world (Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc) are married by the time they're 15:
en.wikipedia.org...

One group tried to marry off a 4 year old (no, they weren't Islamic nor were they from Saudi Arabia. They were from Pakistan.)

For the record, it's also permitted here in the states under certain circumstances. One of my friends (who is about 20 years younger than me) was allowed to marry an older man here in Texas when she was 14. She had parental permission and there were other legalities they had to observe, but she really was legally married here in Texas at age 14 (this was 15 years ago... we're not talking ancient history. Really. Look at "Texas" under this article in Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org... )

Texas Christian polygamist Warren Jeffs was marrying off 14 year old girls to older men: en.wikipedia.org...

So... people generally shriek and scream when this issue arises and the people involved are Islamic. However, if we want to be fair we should recognize that marriages of older men to girls as young as 8 or younger STILL take place today in MANY areas of the world, under MANY different religions.

Using a news story to do a "shock cultural value" and whip up anger against Muslims/Islam without mentioning those other societies isn't fair. I think a minimum age for marriage of 16 (and a better one of 19) is a good idea. But I'm not blind to the fact that others marry young and that it's a cultural thing and not a religious thing.

[edit on 12-4-2009 by Byrd]

Cultural relativism has no place here. Just because you think this happens in other places does not make it 'right'.

Pakistan is Muslim - by the way. It was hived off from India so that Muslims could have their own country - they had been fighting constantly with the native Hindu adherents so constantly that 'the solution' was to give them their own country.

Imagine America deciding to give Texas and California to the Mexicans - you get the idea.

Oh and another thing - 500 years is quite a long time. So just because the Romans might have crucified people in the past doesn't mean that a modern Italian is somehow tainted by the same barbaric brush.

reply to post by The All Seeing I


I read a thread here a week or two ago about Sharia Law coming to America.
And when you think of it, will all the previous child abuse allegations in the past to do with some of the higher ups, the only way they could get away with it in future would be to legalise peadophilia either through common law (which won't happen) or to let it pass through via a religion like Islam and Sharia Law.

We just saw in Afghanistan that they wanted to make spousal rape legal.
They'll keep pushing these things until one day they get their way. in the West.

I'm not sure how sharia law comes under this topic unless indirectly, which if passed, would "legalize" the Islamic version of pedophilia here in the US.

Of course women will lose the right to drive, vote, and under sharia law, must submit to an ass-whipping every time they offend their husbands, who may want to sell off their underage daughters.

It's great! For perverted, overbearing men . . .

As a survivor of child sex abuse, I find my mind obscured when I attempt to organise my thoughts about all the elements that I believe are involved here. Whilst the thread is allocated to BAN, I think it equally fitting for many other topics, particularly NWO and PPM. Much of what follows includes references to other ATS posts and threads that I have read. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and perceptions and I apologise to all for not making direct reference. Please bear in mind that one element involved here has affected me directly and as such, my perceptions will always be hounded by depression.

Paedophilia is about wanting sex with children. Sex with children however, is not always about paedophilia. The act of using a defenceless child to gratify an adult, even if sex is merely a tool or a weapon to achieve the prize, is however, always paedophilic in nature. And the child is always damaged by it.

In the case raised by the OP, this is an issue of paedophilia as well as ownership for the 'husband'. The 'father' clearly sees his daughter as a commodity. The mother clearly loves her daughter and wants to do the best she can by her. The child is central to each petitioner, each for their own reasons and she is the only one involved who is unlikely to understand that the real issue is power and control. I believe this case to be a microcosm of world illness and despair.

Class War
The article in the OP made no mention of the social and economic class of the parents but by his name, we know the judge to be a Sheik (is this a requirement under Sharia?). Nor of the nature of the debt. Without access to all of the details of the case, I have assumed the debt to be financial or material in nature and not a blood debt. As it is the 'father' who owed the debt and the 'husband' the 'lender', I think it is fairly safe to assume that the 'husband' is higher up the socioeconomic scale for SA than is the 'father'. Perhaps the 'husband' is also a sheik, in which case the judgement would have to reflect cultural values that are rooted in the social strata. The father occupies the next rung down. As a male, he enjoys greater rights under the law than does his estranged wife. The child of course, has no rights at all. The court's decision so far is that the child is a commodity, a slave to be bought and sold. Only the mother has expressed any awareness of or commitment to, acting in the best interests of the child.

An Iraqi once told me that each year, the nomads would come to his home to help the family with agricultural work. He explained that they were the same itinerants each year and that the deal was they worked for food and clothing and board. I challenged this as being detached slavery and a form of abuse that people were not paid a fair wage for fair work but rather expected to be grateful for charity in exchange for sweat. He advised me that I didn't understand. That if his father had paid them money, they would only want more and forget ‘their place’, that it was not good for them to want to raise themselves up. I was rude and I laughed in his face. This social strata still exists within the Islamic world, as elsewhere. Historically, subjugation of the many for the benefit of the few has existed in every culture of man. The child in this case must come from a lower social strata than the 'husband'.

The court’s judgement so far merely supports the socioeconomic status quo where it is legal for a child to be sold into slavery under the guise of a marriage. If the child suffers permanent physical injury prior to reaching puberty, the court has ordered the ‘husband’ to provide for her. If the child does not suffer injury and if she can find the strength to stand up to a court full of men and ask for an annulment, then the ‘husband’ has been ordered by the court that he may not return damaged goods to the ‘father’.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


ITS NOT NORM ANYWHERE, IN AMERICA RECENTLY A MAN SOLD HIS DAUGHTER FOR BEER AND MEAT BUT YOU DON'T SEEM DISGUSTED BY THAT DO YOU?? NOOOoo, only if you get to talk about how wrong another country is, no wonder the world hates america.

reply to post by dooper

It's great! For perverted, overbearing men . . .

Yes, because this problem is exclusively unique to Islam.

America leads the Western world in sexual assault and harassment and rapes (second only to South Africa), not to mention some 2,000 child sex offenders are added to the National Sex Offender Registry every year.

Sure, waste your time concerning yourself with Saudi Arabia's problems, when you've got bigger fish to fry in your own backyard.

Civility and Decorum are Required

*cough*

Folks, this is a fairly intense thread, and the topic is about as incendiary as anything I've seen on ATS.

There seem to have been some unfortunate lapses in judgment on the part of a few members, but it IS possible to discuss an issue like this without it turning into a free-for-all.

Let's please remember where we are, that these forums ARE moderated, and that all posts are subject to the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

For those of my fellow members who have kept their cool and stayed on topic, thank you so much! You are truly the best.

For those of us who may have let themselves get carried away by all this, now would be an excellent time to chill out and try to regain some composure.

Thanks.

reply to post by Majic


Out of 146 posts... 1 T&C & 1 M&C... which i even question were deserved... such unnecessary slaps on the wrist are discouraging and this post i'm afraid is a potential thread killer.


reply to everyone

With the exception of those who just popped in to give their 2cent knee jerk reaction and then popped right back out, everyone has provided very thought provoking and insightful commentary on this issue and many of it's loose associations. I want to extend a thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts on this issue. Thus far i have learned a lot and hope to learn even more, please keep the posts coming.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by teapot


Teapot, I looked up the term Sheik earlier today on Wikipedia and the jest of the explanation is that it is an honorific term or title on the order of "the well respected", "the honorable", "the elder" or simply any man that has reached middle age. We know every middle-aged Arab is not a sheik. Confusing? At least to me. Or there is this from Merriam Webster online: "an Arab chief". I think that's a little closer to the actual meaning.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

America leads the Western world in sexual assault and harassment and rapes (second only to South Africa), not to mention some 2,000 child sex offenders are added to the National Sex Offender Registry every year.

Sure, waste your time concerning yourself with Saudi Arabia's problems, when you've got bigger fish to fry in your own backyard.

This information is not correct at all. You forgot the the two most important word in compiling statistics of sex crimes "recorded" and "reported"

We have an of indication the number of rapes and sexual assaults in Western countries because there is a reporting and judicial system that deals with it.

Saudi Arabia barely acknowledges the concept of rape. The onus is on the victim to find something like four witnesses, and the word of a man is taken 99% of the time in the rare cases that are dealt with. Maybe 2-3% of actual cases are recorded. Philippines domestics routinely report working under slavery conditions and sexual abuse. They are not even allowed to report it to na authority. They would be lashed for saying something against their male employer who is actually more of a slave owner.

In the Sudan the government has paid mercenaries called janjaweed to systematically burn villages, murder, torture and raping women and children. Bashir, the couty leader has been convicted of international crimes.

But the Sudan has a very low rape statistic, as the tens of thousands per year are mandated by the government and unrecorded. It is probably 100 times that of the US per capita.

Statistics rely on reports. Corrupt despotic governments decide what is reported.

This is more than opinion. It is common knowledge to those who work in the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Asia. Information is available from human rights information sources.


Mike








[edit on 13-4-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael

In the Sudan the government has paid mercenaries called janjaweed systematically burning villages, murdering, torturing and raping women.
But the Sudan has a low rape statistic,

How is this at all a relevant statistic?

The American mainland is not the grip of a civil war and chaos. You can't really compare the lawlessness of a war zone to that of a functioning, stable society, which is still leading the world in rapes.

We have some indication the number of rapes and sexual assaults in Western countries because there is a reporting and judicial system that deals with it.

And you think every single rape in Western countries is actually reported too?

Pretty naive to assume so.

Saudi Arabia barely acknowledges the concept of rape. The onus is on the victim to find something like four witnesses, and the word of a man is taken 99% of the time in the rare cases that are dealt with.

I'm aware of the biased viewpoint Sharia Law has regarding what constitutes rape.

Nevertheless, that's not what we're discussing here.

I'm going by proven, verifiable statistics. Not speculation.
2nd to South Africa, more rapes happen than anywhere in the world in the US. One every 14 seconds or so.

This is more than opinion. It is common knowledge to those who work in the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Asia.

My question still stands.

Why this is of concern to people in the United States? Why involve yourself with the social traumas of another country when you have the exact same issues plaguing your society, in probably far greater magnitude?

Speaking of a domestic parallel to the Saudis. The Mormon polygamists come to mind. In a state that was more or less founded/settled by the Mormon-Church/Brigham-Young the law seems to have it's hands tied when interfering with the Church's affairs with regard to women's and children's rights.

Many people seem to think that pedophilia is a cultural phenomenon, but here's once again another example of how religion is used to abuse the kin of followers. At the core of these twisted justifications is a belief system. Culture is only a mask, a way of decorating the occasion to give it a sense of legitimacy.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

first i would like to say in a truly free world some people will live in ways that alot of people wouldnt live. who says my way is right? or your way? everyone should be alowed to follow their own path, sure the girl didnt have a choice but thats what parents are for. something their court system understood and also rectified by saying she can ask for a divorce. i dont know where all the hate comes from. let he who is without sin cast the first stone. -Pe@cE

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Are your statistics based solely on the number of rapes, or are you going by the number of rapes per capita ?

I just looked up some numbers and the country rankings by the number of rapes are;

1; United States
2; South Africa
3; Canada
4; Australia
5; India
6; Mexico
7; United Kingdom
8; Germany
9; France
10; Russia

However if the countries are ranked by the number of rapes per capita, the results are quite different

1; South Africa
2; Seychelles
3; Australia
4; Montserrat
5; Canada
6;Jamaica
7; Zimbabwe
8; Dominica
9; United States
10; Iceland

So yes if you only use only the number of rapes then the US is 2nd on the list, however that is not accurate accounting for the purpose that you are using it for.

reply to post by T0XiK


No the courts are not allowing her parents to take care of the situation. They are only allowing the father to make the decisions, as the parents are seperated and therefore the say that the mother has no rights.

Saying that the girl can ask for a divorce when she reaches puberty is not rectifying the situation, as this man is still free to do with this little 8 year old girl as he pleases.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

The American mainland is not the grip of a civil war and chaos. You can't really compare the lawlessness of a war zone to that of a functioning, stable society, which is still leading the world in rapes.


And you think every single rape in Western countries is actually reported too?

Pretty naive to assume so.


Why this is of concern to people in the United States? Why involve yourself with the social traumas of another country when you have the exact same issues plaguing your society, in probably far greater magnitude?

Lets start with this. I don't like to be called naive. I also don't like to have information thrown back at me as incorrect on your say so.

I've lived in a dozen countries and visited many more. I've also worked as a journalist, done primary research and know a fair bit on this particular issue. I've discussed it with not only with experts and people working in the field, but also many victims.

In the US, for arguments sake let's say only 50% of rapes, sexual assaults, child abuse, etc are ever recorded. That would be a reporting level a good 10 or 20 times higher than in most of the world.

To put it simply and bluntly, most countries lie about their numbers.

Not a subject I want to further with someone not receptive to learning anything new. The information is freely out there from in the field sources.


Mike

reply to post by chise61

Are your statistics based solely on the number of rapes, or are you going by the number of rapes per capita ?

When we're comparing the United States to Saudi Arabia it doesn't matter because SA has a far lower documented incidence of rape, either way you look at it.

*Snip*

Removed unnecessary snide remark

[edit on 4/14/2009 by semperfortis]

reply to post by mmiichael

I've lived in a dozen countries and visited many more. I've also worked as a journalist, done primary research and know a fair bit on this particular issue. I've discussed it with not only with experts and people working in the field, but also many victims.

Don't pretend to assume you know the first thing about me and where my experience begins and ends.

So you've heard ramblings from aid workers and journos in the field, and I'm supposed to take this as credible attestation to Saudi Arabia's supposedly hidden, astronomically high incidence of rape?

Sorry but I don't buy that. Aid agencies lie as well. They deliberately fudge figures to make international crises seem far worse on paper than they really are to attract more support and attention from human rights groups, the UN, UNICEF, Red Cross, Amnesty Int. and other organisations to take some of the load off their backs.

As for journalists? Hell when doesn't the mainstream media lie?
I'd take the word of the Saudi king over a journalist any day of the week.

I'm quite full already from the amount of garbage shoved down our mouths via the MSM propaganda outlets thank you.

Not a subject I want to further with someone not receptive to learning anything new. The information is freely out there from in the field sources.

Share some sources by all means.

I'm all ears here...

This is reprehensible on every level. Not only is it despicable that a man was allowed to marry a girl so young, but it is equally terrifying that a child could be used as barter or payment. This is slavery, plain and simple.

I don't care about what the traditions of the region are. There are basic human rights involved here, and our Government SHOULD be condemning this in the name of all that we hold sacred.

I will say that I think that while there is a perverse sexual component to this situation, I believe that the real motivation of men that marry children is control. In such rigidly male-centric societies, it is all about ego and imposition of will. The man can feel powerful in his ownership of this child.

Regardless of motivation, it is truly a vile practice, and God have mercy on that poor little girl.