Saudi Court Approves Pedophilia

Originally posted by chise61



It is of importance that these laws have been in place for 1400 years, as it shows that America had nothing to do with the implementation of these laws since America was nonexistent 1400 years ago. Those laws were implemented by the Muslim people and are kept in place by the Muslim people. Talking about present time, America is not keeping these laws in place the The government and the Muslim people are.

Umm confusion, it is a great force.

Firstly I think I was talking about the continuation of such laws being implemented. It is there, we know it is there and we know where it came from, we know where it went, now we should focus on change. Right? Isn't that what Obama was blabering about, and hey if you look colsely Bush was calling for change also in 2001.

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth and attempting to blame others for what the Muslims accepted, implemented an continue to accept, if you can not honestly respond than we may as well not discuss this any longer as i am trying to understand from a person that will tell the truth, not lay blame at the feet of others.

Umm the problem is if Muslims accept it then please shut your mouths and get over it. That is the law they chose, Democracy, the rule of majority. What I'm calling for is discussion and debates amongst Muslims which is currently banned because of the American war against extreme Islam. And because of the backing of dictator. Do you believe debates and discussion can bring change?

I can agree that the leaders will not allow the changes, we are going through unrest in our own country right now. However if the Muslim people really had such problems with these laws for so long then why wait until American soldiers are on thier soil to attempt to voice them ? Or are the American soldiers just a convient excuse to avoid an attempt at change ? Again you seem to place blame only at the feet of others and none at the feet at your own people.

Let's not forget that we only started complaining about these laws recently, before 9/11 I'm sure you wouldn't have even been interested in Islam, or even gave a damn about what it called for. Now that it is in the spot light, let's not let it go back to the darkness and do something about it. You are saying that Islam existed in that part of the world for along time therefore it is not America's fault for the continuation of these laws, yes it is America which allows the continuation of these laws. I'm sure a different version of Islam would have been implemented in the 21st century if it wasn't for these dictators.
You may ask why they would change after 1400 years? Well the same reason why the behaviour towards black people changed in America. The same reason why China being a Communist state turned to Capitalism. The same reason as America being a Capitalist state turning in to Communism.

No the point is that the Saudi government is to blame for the laws that are implemented in that country, but ultimately the people must look to themselves for allowing an unjust government to remain in place. It is no different for Americans, or any other people, they ultimately are the only ones that can bring about change.

So you want revolution? Or do I want that? I'm confused. Osama Bin Laden wanted revolution, he wanted to bring about change. Didn't work.

If what you say is true, then can you please help me to understand why so many men still adhere to these laws even when they move countries where they are allowed freedom from these laws ? And why so many Muslims demand for their Muslim laws to be implemented in the free countries that they move to ?

Women adhere it also, the point is?
My point is that men who are raised up by women wouldn't naturally want to be in controle. Get it? They have a perfectly legitimate relationship, personal experience I'm talking about, not movies. I've seen Muslim women in control of the household and I also seen Muslim men.

The more extreme would be for example the laws that say a woman can be stoned to death if she is seen associating with a male of a different sect, or religion ? A father may take his daughter's life if she refuses a forced marriage, shames the family, etc? Are these Sunni laws, Shi'a laws, or both ?

That is not extremism that is culture. They follow the culture of that region, just like honor killings. So you are against the culture of those people? I don't like that particular culture also since I'll be getting arranged marriage.

If it is not law, then why is a court allowing it, and upholding it as law ?

It is not an Islamic law, get it? That was the whole point. I prove it wasn't an Islamic law, you don't read?

I'm unsure if you are speaking of a law against sodomy, or a law that allows sodomy against a female child.

Sodomy is fobidden.

Your turn.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

Alcohol isn't a cause of crime, people's inability to control their own actions is the cause of crime. While alcohol is involved in a great many petty crimes, almost all serious crimes are committed by sober people whose problems are mainly arrogance and hypocrisy. It is the people who think they are better than everyone else who usually rationalizes committing horrible crimes. These people are usually too much of control freaks to consume alcohol, cut loose, and have a little fun. A very high percentage of people who commit horrible crimes tend to be very religious. There is a stronger connection between religion and serious crime than there is between alcohol and serious crime.

Well you said it, alcohol isn't a cause of crime. It is a cause of a crime. An individual who you would never see harming a fly, after getting drunk you would potentially see him scraping someone's head against the concrete floor. I'm not saying alcohol alone is the cause, but I'm saying alcohol is a great factor. Just like a crazy person, that individual being crazy is not the only cause for him to commit a crime, but certain conditions also have to meet. Get it?

While alcohol is involved in a great many petty crimes,

Yeah if your family is killed in a car crash, and the other driver happens to be drunk, would you repeat the same sentence?

Define to us serious crime. Is killing someone for no reason a serious crime? Or are we talking about genocides since you always seem to swerve every topic to religion vs [something]. Tell me what that something is

You can't call it democracy when half the population isn't given a vote. It is a shame the power that religious extremists are capable of wielding. This is true the world over, but even more so in third world countries. My observation is that while religions talk about being good, doing the things God desires us to do, and going to heaven, what they mainly concern themselves with is controlling peoples sexuality.

Jesus the son of marry, you just said Muslims want these laws, now you say half of them don't want it. Democracy means the rule of majority, ofcurse different versions of Democracy exists but the absolute bases of Democracy is the Rule of Majority. You should have learned that in history.

People's sexuality? How did you come up with that conclusion? You claim that the religious people's problem is mainly arrogance and hypocrisy, yet I see both of those characteristics in you.

Arrogance:

Alcohol isn't a cause of crime

reply to post by Ownification


If alcohol is the cause of crime, then how come everyone who drinks doesn't commit a crime? Why is it that the vast majority of people who drink never beat someone up because they are drunk, or kill someone. But hey, you want to claim that alcohol causes crime, well guess what then, religion causes far more crime, death, destruction, and war than alcohol could ever be blamed for. Then again, maybe, like alcohol, it is not the religion, but the people who hide behind the religion while committing crimes that are responsible. Guess what, it is a thread on religion, so yes, I am going to talk about religion.

When women are not given any rights, you can't claim things are being done by the will of the people. In Saudi Arabia, men control everything, including what power Islam holds over peoples lives and I highly doubt that this is how women prefer things to be. Clearly the mother in this case doesn't want her daughter sold to the guy who loaned her ex husband money.

Can Islam change and adapt to modern times, yes I think it can and it will. I also think these discussion are doing good. I see positions shifting around. Since 9-11 and the war on terrorism, all of this new attention towards Islam could turn out to be a good thing. I didn't support the invasion of Iraq, but I think U.S. soldiers have done a good job, and I really hope the new government in Iraq can succeed and thrive as a true representative government for the people. By the way, I think the PTB, the CWO, screw with the nations of Islam every bit as much as they screw with the people here in the U.S. and Europe, and everywhere else on the planet. When you speak about the bad influences that Western nations have on Islam, you might want to recognize that it is our bad people getting together with your bad people.

Am I arrogant? Well, I try not to be, but sometimes I fail. Every morning I start the day selling my soul, and either free it or destroy it.

A certain religion that forbids the consumption of alcohol has a lousy record of murder, rape, torture, inhumane treatment, slavery - much of it sanctioned and encouraged by strict regimes and interpretations of the religion itself.

Of course we will never know their true numbers as they incapable of the type of self-awareness and transparency we see elsewhere.

So let's toast to religions of peace everywhere that self-righteously love to criticize others and their cultural habits. Maybe alcohol actually works as a safety valve for violence.


Mike

Just put all religion, culture and even pedophilia aside for second.

Selling ANY human being to absolve a debt is slavery. Be it a 5 year old human being or an 80 year old human being. That's just plain wrong.

The father should be jailed for crimes against his own child.
You don't sell your kid!

Originally posted by Ownification

Democracy means the rule of majority, ofcurse different versions of Democracy exists but the absolute bases of Democracy is the Rule of Majority. You should have learned that in history.

Democracy means the majority of people over an established voting age. That means all genders, socio-economic status, ethnic derivation, etc.

When you have autocratic leaders and some nominal voting system available to the empowered class males making the decisions for the majority, it isn't democracy. Those who live as virtual slaves may be able to decide on trivial aspects of their society, but not their freedoms.
Females in Saudi Arabia have no power in any decision-making regarding them, whether they drive, or their children are bought and sold.

Females outnumber males. Real voting without external pressure that involved women in a Muslim dominated country would be interesting.

But they would need to be informed of the concept of a women having equal rights that would be enforced.

There are international human rights for all people in the world, we know they aren't enforced everywhere, and in which places they are ignored with impunity.


Mike


[edit on 26-4-2009 by mmiichael]

13 pages about saudi arabia and yet


www.timesonline.co.uk...

Encouraged by her elder sister, who had been unhappily married at 11, and by her teacher, Rekha eventually persuaded her parents to let her finish school and remain unmarried until she was at least 18.

Rekha had seen the reality of child pregnancies: her sister Jyotsna had lost four babies before their first birthdays. Now, she may not be able to have any more children

india has the worst track record on the planet - marrying 10 year olds who are then expected to have chuldren as soon as they can.

Originally posted by Harlequin
13 pages about saudi arabia and yet

--- india has the worst track record on the planet - marrying 10 year olds who are then expected to have chuldren as soon as they can.

Agreed the problem in India and elsewhere is abysmal and shocking. A many page thread on the subject is justified.

But under discussion here is the situation in Saudi Arabia. The existence of a similar phenomenon elsewhere does nothing to exonerate those who allow and perpetuate it.



Mike

what needs to be understaood is that whilst we have the `usual` suspects bashing muslims - india is NOT a muslim country , its hindu.

so i must ask - is christianity the only religion that doesn`t support marrying children off?

Originally posted by Harlequin

what needs to be understaood is that whilst we have the `usual` suspects bashing muslims - india is NOT a muslim country , its hindu.

so i must ask - is christianity the only religion that doesn`t support marrying children off?

No one said India is not a predominantly Hindu country? It does have a 150 Million Muslim population, the second highest of any country after Indonesia.

There are a many religions in the world, and different marriage practices. As this is not the topic under discussion, if you want to know, I recommend reading up on comparative religion.

Who are the usual suspects?

Is a discussion of something happening in any Muslim country automatically Muslim bashing?

Should we be complimenting the people involved or excusing them?



Mike

[edit on 27-4-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by Ownification
Umm confusion, it is a great force.

Firstly I think I was talking about the continuation of such laws being implemented. It is there, we know it is there and we know where it came from, we know where it went, now we should focus on change. Right? Isn't that what Obama was blabering about, and hey if you look colsely Bush was calling for change also in 2001.

I agree confusion is a great force, however i am not yet confused. Though i must say that it seems as though you attempt to turn words around in an attempt to bring about confusion in others. I know that you were speaking of the continuation of laws, however you were attemping to lay blame on others, and you must first lay blame on those that created, accepted, and continue to implement these laws before casting stones at outside forces that aid in the implementation of said laws. Outside forces are just that, true change can only come from within. Yes they both seemed to be quite succsessful at fooling the naive of our country, your point being ???

Umm the problem is if Muslims accept it then please shut your mouths and get over it. That is the law they chose, Democracy, the rule of majority. What I'm calling for is discussion and debates amongst Muslims which is currently banned because of the American war against extreme Islam. And because of the backing of dictator. Do you believe debates and discussion can bring change?

There you go, you said it, Muslims ACCEPT it. It is hard for people to keep their mouths shut when they see the atrocities that are carried out under the guise of "God's will". If you truely want people to keep their mouths shut about the laws of the Muslim people, then i'm afraid that the Muslim people need to stop moving to countries that do not hold the same beliefs and attempting to force us to accept these beliefs and laws and make them part of our culture. Again by your own admition these laws were chosen by the Muslim people. Democracy is in fact the rule of the majority, however it only applies when the entire populace is allowed to vote. In a situation where the only ones allowed to vote are the men it is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship where the laws are being dictated by the men. Have the discussions and debates been been banned by Americans, or by the Muslim leaders ? Would these discussions and debates allow women to participate, or only men ? Debates and discussion can bring change in some instances, unfortunately in some situations they can not.


Now do you see what i'm talking about, talking out of both sides of your mouth, first you say yes Muslims accepted these laws, this is the law they chose, get over it and shut your mouth, but it's America's fault these laws still exist! You can't have it both ways.

Let's not forget that we only started complaining about these laws recently, before 9/11 I'm sure you wouldn't have even been interested in Islam, or even gave a damn about what it called for. Now that it is in the spot light, let's not let it go back to the darkness and do something about it. You are saying that Islam existed in that part of the world for along time therefore it is not America's fault for the continuation of these laws, yes it is America which allows the continuation of these laws. I'm sure a different version of Islam would have been implemented in the 21st century if it wasn't for these dictators.
You may ask why they would change after 1400 years? Well the same reason why the behaviour towards black people changed in America. The same reason why China being a Communist state turned to Capitalism. The same reason as America being a Capitalist state turning in to Communism.

I won't argue that point with you as you already have a preconceived notion about my beliefs and interests. Are there American dictators in these countries ? Really, you seriously believe, and expect others to also believe that people that have held the same beliefs for over 1400 years would all of a sudden change these beliefs simply because we hit the year 2000 ????? How convienent that America stepped in and forced these people to continue with their beliefs, In case you're unsure yes that was sacarsm. Your comparison of the change in behavior towards blacks in America, with the Muslim community's beliefs has done nothing but prove my point. You do the same thing with your comparison of China and America, as not one of the examples that you have given have taken anywhere near 1400 years to come about.

So you want revolution? Or do I want that? I'm confused. Osama Bin Laden wanted revolution, he wanted to bring about change. Didn't work.

I don't want revolution, i want my country to be ran as the republic it was intended to be. However i do accept the fact that sometimes change can not be brought about without revolution. You are the only one that knows what you want. I can not comment on Bin Laden as i know nothing of him.

Women adhere it also, the point is?
My point is that men who are raised up by women wouldn't naturally want to be in controle. Get it? They have a perfectly legitimate relationship, personal experience I'm talking about, not movies. I've seen Muslim women in control of the household and I also seen Muslim men.

Women in the Muslim community have no choice in the matter. Almost all men, in all cultures are raised by women and there are plenty of men outside the Muslim culture that want the control. Why do you keep referring to movies ? Yes but do Muslim women have the freedom to do as they wish in every aspect of their life ?

That is not extremism that is culture. They follow the culture of that region, just like honor killings. So you are against the culture of those people? I don't like that particular culture also since I'll be getting arranged marriage.

Is it not extremism to kill your own child, sister, niece,etc, because they do something that you disapprove of ? Is it not extremism to stone someone to death? What honor is there in killing your own child ??? Yes i am against any culture that allows the murder of a woman or girl simply because she refuses an arranged marriage, is seen with a male that is not a family member, is seen with a member of a different relgion or religious sect, etc. If you do not want an arranged marriage don't accept it.

It is not an Islamic law, get it? That was the whole point. I prove it wasn't an Islamic law, you don't read?

Yes i read what you said, but you have yet to explain if it is not an Islamic law, but rather a mere perception then why is it being upheld as law ?

Sodomy is fobidden.
Your turn.

If sodomy is forbidden why is it allowed to be done to a female child ?

Beware of the desert religions.
Here is a primer/orientation to the core cause of this societal illness.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

If alcohol is the cause of crime, then how come everyone who drinks doesn't commit a crime? Why is it that the vast majority of people who drink never beat someone up because they are drunk, or kill someone. But hey, you want to claim that alcohol causes crime, well guess what then, religion causes far more crime, death, destruction, and war than alcohol could ever be blamed for. Then again, maybe, like alcohol, it is not the religion, but the people who hide behind the religion while committing crimes that are responsible. Guess what, it is a thread on religion, so yes, I am going to talk about religion.

I don't need to argue about alcohol, professionals can do that for me:

Evidence suggests a very strong link between alcohol and crime.

www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk...

When women are not given any rights, you can't claim things are being done by the will of the people. In Saudi Arabia, men control everything, including what power Islam holds over peoples lives and I highly doubt that this is how women prefer things to be. Clearly the mother in this case doesn't want her daughter sold to the guy who loaned her ex husband money.

"When women are not given any rights" For example would be good at this situation, give us an example.

Men are not in control, the religion is. That is why even women who come to western society they still follow the religion, have you seen educated women wearing head scarves?

American Muslim women are actually more slightly educated than American Muslim men and more educated than U.S. women overall.

muslimahmediawatch.org...
They are educated Muslim women, if they are educated why are they still Muslim, living under what you call an unjust social conditions. Get my point?

Can Islam change and adapt to modern times, yes I think it can and it will. I also think these discussion are doing good.

But they are not allowed to discuss these issues in Saudi Arabia, get the point?

I see positions shifting around. Since 9-11 and the war on terrorism, all of this new attention towards Islam could turn out to be a good thing.

Actually after 9/11 more Muslims got demonized therefore made them more radical. That is the shift I saw, because of the American foreign policy which only worries about its own interest rather than the common wellbeing of the people they are exploiting.

I didn't support the invasion of Iraq, but I think U.S. soldiers have done a good job, and I really hope the new government in Iraq can succeed and thrive as a true representative government for the people. By the way, I think the PTB, the CWO, screw with the nations of Islam every bit as much as they screw with the people here in the U.S. and Europe, and everywhere else on the planet. When you speak about the bad influences that Western nations have on Islam, you might want to recognize that it is our bad people getting together with your bad people.

That is something I can agree with, our bad people against your bad people. Why demonize a whole religion is the question of the century. Isn't that what the Nazis did? I was watching South Park last night, Cartman was acting as Hitler, man it was funny. Anyways, mistakes has been done but how to heal the wounds should be the priority. Right?

Am I arrogant? Well, I try not to be, but sometimes I fail. Every morning I start the day selling my soul, and either free it or destroy it.

[edit on 063030p://30b4 by Ownification]

Yup, this is sickening.

But I remember quite a lot of people when President Bush was in office sick and tired of the U.S. telling other countries what to do. If the U.S. got involved in this situation, wouldn't it be the same thing? Or is it OK in this situation, but not in others?

There is a breaking UPDATE to this story and its GREAT news!

news.yahoo.com...

8-year-old Saudi girl divorces 50-year-old husband

CAIRO – An 8-year-old Saudi girl has divorced her middle-aged husband after her father forced her to marry him last year in exchange for about $13,000, her lawyer said Thursday.

Saudi Arabia has come under increasing criticism at home and abroad for permitting child marriages. The United States, a close ally of the conservative Muslim kingdom, has called child marriage a "clear and unacceptable" violation of human rights.

The girl was allowed to divorce the 50-year-old man who she married in August after an out-of-court settlement had been reached in the case, said her lawyer, Abdulla al-Jeteli. The exact date of the divorce was not immediately known.

[edit on 4/30/2009 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by greeneyedleo


That is really great news i am so relieved for her. Thanks for the update

reply to post by greeneyedleo


Thank you for this good news, but i can't help but think this was made an exception only because of all the international press it has been getting.

Now for those who think someone would forgive a $13K debt for the "privilege" of taking care of someone else's kid... do you really honestly think there are no other motives on the table?

[edit on 30-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Originally posted by chise61



I agree confusion is a great force, however i am not yet confused. Though i must say that it seems as though you attempt to turn words around in an attempt to bring about confusion in others. I know that you were speaking of the continuation of laws, however you were attemping to lay blame on others, and you must first lay blame on those that created, accepted, and continue to implement these laws before casting stones at outside forces that aid in the implementation of said laws. Outside forces are just that, true change can only come from within. Yes they both seemed to be quite succsessful at fooling the naive of our country, your point being ???

No I'm not starting a blaming game but just analyzing the situation in the ground. What is happening right now is directly influenced by American foreign policy. Yes I do agree that what happened to this girl was wrong, and the people who accept this are wrong by far but the fact in the ground is that the people who oppose this is not given any attention in Saudi and blocked from public. Muslims who disagree with this and have there own version of Islam which is "as" credible are not allowed to discuss what they believe to be Islam. That is what I'm against.

I'm not casting stones at any one. Would you cast stones at America if hypothetically allowed the Nazis to do the things they did to the Jews for the sake of their interests? What if the Nazis and America became allies against USSR. America for the sake of this alliance backs Hitler and guarantees his position in power. Think about it.

There you go, you said it, Muslims ACCEPT it. It is hard for people to keep their mouths shut when they see the atrocities that are carried out under the guise of "God's will".

If Muslims accept it then leave them alone, that is what I said.

If you truely want people to keep their mouths shut about the laws of the Muslim people, then i'm afraid that the Muslim people need to stop moving to countries that do not hold the same beliefs and attempting to force us to accept these beliefs and laws and make them part of our culture.

Stop invading other countries and starting proxy wars so they can live, that is the basic human rights, for people to be able to live.

Again by your own admition these laws were chosen by the Muslim people.

Once again if it is chosen then you have no right to complain due to your own stand towards Democracy, if it isn't then it is due to the dictatorship which your country is backing.

Democracy is in fact the rule of the majority, however it only applies when the entire populace is allowed to vote.

If they vote or not doesn't make much of a difference. Democracy bottom line means the rule of majority. The majority gets to decide how the country is lead.

In a situation where the only ones allowed to vote are the men it is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship where the laws are being dictated by the men. Have the discussions and debates been been banned by Americans, or by the Muslim leaders ? Would these discussions and debates allow women to participate, or only men ? Debates and discussion can bring change in some instances, unfortunately in some situations they can not.

Neither men or women are permitted to vote in Saudi, the religion leads the country. In Islam it is both women and mens responsibility to obtain knowledge and you can't obtain knowledge without discussions, so yeah both men and women.

Now do you see what i'm talking about, talking out of both sides of your mouth, first you say yes Muslims accepted these laws, this is the law they chose, get over it and shut your mouth, but it's America's fault these laws still exist! You can't have it both ways.

Once again twisting my words. Please don't do that. You said the people accept it, right? and then I said well if they accept it then you don't have the right to complain. Once again America is responsible for the continuation, not for the laws. If you don't understand that then well...

I won't argue that point with you as you already have a preconceived notion about my beliefs and interests. Are there American dictators in these countries ? Really, you seriously believe, and expect others to also believe that people that have held the same beliefs for over 1400 years would all of a sudden change these beliefs simply because we hit the year 2000 ?????

No not American dictators, American backed dictators. They back them as long as the dictators do not harm the American interest, hence Saddam.

Most of Europe only gave women the right to vote at the end of World War I. What? that is not that long ago. What happened, did they just decide to suddenly change their minds?

How convienent that America stepped in and forced these people to continue with their beliefs, In case you're unsure yes that was sacarsm.

HAHA how convenient that America is giving a dictator full support for his dictatorship, not allowing the people any rights to discuss issues which ultimately affects their lives. Yes imagine if USSR did that to America than you might start thinking because your own kind is getting affected. Ofcurse they are just Muslims, their lives are worth half as much as American lives and ofcurse oil.

Your comparison of the change in behavior towards blacks in America, with the Muslim community's beliefs has done nothing but prove my point. You do the same thing with your comparison of China and America, as not one of the examples that you have given have taken anywhere near 1400 years to come about.

I gave you another comparison, women Think hard.

Women in the Muslim community have no choice in the matter. Almost all men, in all cultures are raised by women and there are plenty of men outside the Muslim culture that want the control. Why do you keep referring to movies ? Yes but do Muslim women have the freedom to do as they wish in every aspect of their life ?

Do any humans have the freedom to do as they wish in every aspect of their lives? You are still in the dark.

Continued to next reply...

reply to post by Ownification

Is it not extremism to kill your own child, sister, niece,etc, because they do something that you disapprove of ? Is it not extremism to stone someone to death? What honor is there in killing your own child ??? Yes i am against any culture that allows the murder of a woman or girl simply because she refuses an arranged marriage, is seen with a male that is not a family member, is seen with a member of a different relgion or religious sect, etc. If you do not want an arranged marriage don't accept it.

Yes I'm against any culture that allows the murder of women or girl simply because she refuses an arranged marriage, is seen with a male that is not family member, is seen with a member of a different religion or religious sect, etc. Is that what you want to hear, me and you are not in a disagreement here.

A person who kills an innocent child is a killer. if the individual kills a granny, he/she is a killer. if the individual kills the president he/she is a killer. if the person kills his/her father he is a killer. Do you get where I'm going with this? Why label them extremist is the question, maybe this will help you clear your brain a little bit. Think hard.

reply to post by The All Seeing I


Oh no you misunderstood the $13,000 debt. Read the whole article the husband paid the father $13,000 as a wedding gift in exchange for the daughter.

Funny how the original story said the marriage was to pay off a debt the father owed his friend and now they're saying the friend paid the father $13,000 for the daughter.