Evolution, DNA and God

1. Where does life come from.

On our planet we have (if you have not noticed) quite a large amount of life. All kinds of different species walk around, acting as if they have always been here, including us.
Most likely we have not always been here, and this topic is about how everything started.
The big bang theory is nice and all, but explosions usually destroy life. They surely don't affect life in a positive way, let stand create life.
Fish turning into apes turning into humans sounds very cool as well, but recent theories have showed that there is enough proof against that as well.

DNA
According to a lot of folks on this planet, life started by DNA improving itself. In fact the whole idea of evolution is based on the idea of DNA changing and improving over time. This is the first and most important thing in the whole evolution theory that does not make sense.
The problem is that DNA does not change at all.

A child is a copy (a mix of 2 DNA's) of the parents.
We are all unique because DNA contains so much info that a random mix between 2 DNA's will always lead to a unique result. But nothing new is added to it.
This means we do not improve at all, but it goes further then that.

Sometimes something goes wrong. Because of various reasons, DNA can be damaged. And it does not take a nuclear disaster for DNA to become damaged.
In this case, the child (copy of dna's) will also copy this small error, and after a few thousands of years quite a lot of people might walk around having this error.
What people assume, is that these "errors" (new dna) is what changed and improved several species, leading to the life that we have today, including us.

And this is where stuff goes wrong.
Small errors in your DNA generally do not improve you at all.
Just like everything else in this world, DNA slowly decays over time as more errors creep in.
The life that eventually survives, are the ones with the least errors, not the ones with the most.
A fish can not turn into an ape, and an ape can not turn into a human just by errors in the DNA.
If by mistake in DNA, a dog would be born with 7 legs, we do not call it evolution either.
Having 7 legs is not cool for the dog, neither is it the start of an evolution to a new species, it's just plain stupid.

Now what does God have to do with this you might be wondering...
Well the above theory does not prove that there is a God, but it sure makes the existence of such a being more likely.
The maximum speed in the universe, the small insects that look like leaves to fool birds.
It almost looks as if some thought went into the creation of the universe and everything that's in it.
Not some random chain of chaos, explosions and apes.

You should go take some evolutionary biology classes and read up on the big bang.

Showing ignorance of the two theories doesn't help your argument.

You've butchered both of them. I'll explian more when I have the time to post. If one of the other science guys doesn't beat me to it.

You're trying to counter argue science when you are obviously misinformed of the theories and their functions.

Originally posted by Quest
You should go take some evolutionary biology classes and read up on the big bang.

Showing ignorance of the two theories doesn't help your argument.

You've butchered both of them. I'll explian more when I have the time to post. If one of the other science guys doesn't beat me to it.

You're trying to counter argue science when you are obviously misinformed of the theories and their functions.

I tried not to explain every theory in detail, because the general ideas behind my point apply regardless of the details in the theories.

most of your answers have already been answered by field specialists. Try reading some stuff on complex adaptive systems (Murray Gell-Mann is a good start) or books on chaos theory & nonlinear dynamics, applied on biodiversity...

it can be a combination of a creating force and evolution. some how dna made the galaxy unstable and created the big bang where the mater and antimatter split up and by a process the building blocks where created and then the dna created life when the temp and the moisture was right.

if this creating force is a god or something else is the question but from the beginning of the big bang all is being changed by evolution.

I'm no expert on DNA, but as I understand it, Evolution is far more logical an argument than Creationism.

Darwin's theory of Evolution (Natural Selection)

The process in nature by which, according to Darwin's theory of evolution, only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.

Humankind has become the dominant species due to their ability to adapt to the most extreme environments.

In my view, evolution would slow down as a species becomes more dependant on technology for survival.
We used to adjust to suit our environment, but these days we adjust our environment instead. We have an ability to live in extreme heat or extreme cold, from the Arctic to the Sahara, we can overcome most anything nature throws at us. For this reason, there are no other species on this planet that can contend with the human race.

When choosing a mate we look for attributes that increase the chances of survival for our offspring.

In past times a female would go generally for an Alpha male, a leader being the most desireable. Over time the required attributes of a mate have changed, and in this day and age a male would most likely be chosen based on a combination of physical and mental capabilities. Academic, logic, physical strength, kindness, sense of humour, good looks, are all attributes which may be favourable to a modern day female, she may choose one, she may choose many.

These days leaders come in all shapes and sizes, from the Prime Minister of a country to the Captain of a football (soccer) team.

A female with high academic capabilities would be less likely to choose a male with strong physical attributes and low academic capabilities, and vice versa. Although i'm sure they'd prefer a mate who had both, but they will prioritise according to what they believe more impotant to them.

These examples are generalisations based on my theories and knowledge.

The Big Bang is not one I wholey subscribe to, but have little alternative. Although an emmense and destructive force, things have calmed and allowed cell organisms to take root, probably throughout the universe, but definitely on this planet.

Only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.

It sounds logical, but if you think about it this theory relies on several other statements that might be less logical:

1. In every group of species there is a range in "weakness" of the species.

- Even though this is true, the differences are in most cases way too small to result in a seperation of weaker and stronger species, meaning that weaker and stronger species will come together and reproduce anyways. Only extreme differences would lead to elimination without ability to reproduce, but I don't think Darwin is talking about such individual cases.

2. Weak species will also produce weak children.

- This is not true at all, organisms perfectly able to adapt to their environment can very well have children that are not that good at adapting at all and the other way around.

Darwin's theory is not "untrue" because it is very logical the weakest species do not survive, but reality is too complex to be contained in such a "simple" theory.

You really do need to familiarise yourself with these theories more before trying to challenge them. It just leads to misunderstandings such as these. Evolution has come a long way since Darwin.

A good resource to get a better handle on how Evolution works is the Evolution FAQ at talkorigins.net

I have a quewstion for you Jakko:

How did pugs (yes the little dogs with smushed faces)
get here? What caused the "Pug"?

Humans created the pug. They bred the dog for certain characteristics, like people do with many dogs and other animals. In a general sense, humans mated dogs that had pug traits together. Thus making it more likely that the offspring would also have these traits. Over time, the Pug was created. This is fact.

Now tell me the difference between these two statements:

1) Certain characteristics of what we now call a pug were encouraged to be passed on genetically by human beings.

2) Certain characteristics of what we now call the polar bear were encouraged to be passed on genetically by the cold weather.

We are part of the pugs environment just as the cold is part of the polar bears.



[Edited on 4/23/2004 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by Jakko
1. Where does life come from.

On our planet we have (if you have not noticed) quite a large amount of life. All kinds of different species walk around, acting as if they have always been here, including us.
Most likely we have not always been here, and this topic is about how everything started.
The big bang theory is nice and all, but explosions usually destroy life. They surely don't affect life in a positive way, let stand create life.
Fish turning into apes turning into humans sounds very cool as well, but recent theories have showed that there is enough proof against that as well.

DNA
According to a lot of folks on this planet, life started by DNA improving itself. In fact the whole idea of evolution is based on the idea of DNA changing and improving over time. This is the first and most important thing in the whole evolution theory that does not make sense.
The problem is that DNA does not change at all.

A child is a copy (a mix of 2 DNA's) of the parents.
We are all unique because DNA contains so much info that a random mix between 2 DNA's will always lead to a unique result. But nothing new is added to it.
This means we do not improve at all, but it goes further then that.

Sometimes something goes wrong. Because of various reasons, DNA can be damaged. And it does not take a nuclear disaster for DNA to become damaged.
In this case, the child (copy of dna's) will also copy this small error, and after a few thousands of years quite a lot of people might walk around having this error.
What people assume, is that these "errors" (new dna) is what changed and improved several species, leading to the life that we have today, including us.

And this is where stuff goes wrong.
Small errors in your DNA generally do not improve you at all.
Just like everything else in this world, DNA slowly decays over time as more errors creep in.
The life that eventually survives, are the ones with the least errors, not the ones with the most.
A fish can not turn into an ape, and an ape can not turn into a human just by errors in the DNA.
If by mistake in DNA, a dog would be born with 7 legs, we do not call it evolution either.
Having 7 legs is not cool for the dog, neither is it the start of an evolution to a new species, it's just plain stupid.

Now what does God have to do with this you might be wondering...
Well the above theory does not prove that there is a God, but it sure makes the existence of such a being more likely.
The maximum speed in the universe, the small insects that look like leaves to fool birds.
It almost looks as if some thought went into the creation of the universe and everything that's in it.
Not some random chain of chaos, explosions and apes.

OK - I'd like to start by saying I am not a biologist or anything, so this is opinion - if someone knows me to be wrong, feel free to correct me.

The Big Bang was the creation of our universe, and as such, there would have been no life before this for it to destroy. In fact, the earth was around for a very long time before any life was even present here, having been here in a volcanic state for a huge amount of time before there was any water or atmosphere.

DNA can change, as in mutate, and although this it is more commonly bad then good, it can lead to desirable atributes for it's offspring.

However, I do not believe it is these changes in DNA that cause evolution. It is more (to my knowladge) that single genes become more common because they allow for better survival. Take marothon runners - the best ones are almost allways from Kenya. This is because of the extreme altitude they live at. This has shown it's self in their people, as they have extremely good lungs to account for the thin air.

Another example - Eskimos. They have a layer of fat over their eye lids. This is to prevent their eyes from freezing in the cold. You will not find this layer of fat any where else in the world.

More examples - most people (who are not of mixed ethnicity and have stayed in their homeland) from very cold places are very stocky. This stocky build allows for heat to be kept in the body by having a small exposed skin to size ratio. Like wise, many people from hot climates are thin and tall, thus giving them a very high skin area to size ratio. This is so they can more quickly cool their body.

Now, if you are looking at the evolution of humans, you have to say - what is our most important trait? Thats easy - our brain. We are so much smarter then other animals it defies logic. But why? Well, humans are physically ungifted. We have hands, which is about our only physical plus. unlike four legged animals, if one of our legs is injured beyond hope, we will not be able to walk. We stand up right - this is usefull to us so we may use our hands, but assuming we had no hands, it would be another flaw. It exposes our whole body to attack. Instead of exposing just our head in a confrontation, we expose our vital organs and neck. A very serious flaw indeed. Over all - the human body is frail. We do not deal with pain very well, and cannot deal with extreme heat/cold without help.

This is where are brain comes in. Somewhere way back when, our genes developed the tendency for intellegence as our main survival tool. As it worked better and better, our body adapted to suit our brains needs. We stood upright, thus giving our arms the ability to perform another function. We developed a thumb, which allowed us to grasp. The rest is history.

Any way - I am not saying there is no God or anything like that, but I believe in a mixture of both. And looking at the world, evolution seems quite likely to me.

Here is another point I thought I should share.

Religion is based on faith. The christian religion especially is based on faith without proof. The idea behind it is the reward for blind faith. It is greater to believe without having proof than to believe because you know.

If evolution does not exist, then God MUST EXIST. If evolution does exist, then God may or may not exist.

So where is the blind faith. Evolution leaves room for both possibilities while the lack of it eliminates one. If there was no evolution, then there can be no faith.

Anyone want to add in the simple amazing fact that a single cell of a living organizim, be it human, animal or plant. Contains the complete instruction set to "build" the entire organizim. Yet when the cells divide only certain ones become cells of one type while other cells become another type. Yet every single cell holds the entire instruction set to build the entire "thing". Now you scientific types please explain to me the process that allows the cells to change into the required cell type. By what method does this happen ? And why can we not take a single cell, like an egg from a women and make it divide into and change into the cell type of our choosing ? The current research into "stem cells" requires that the stem cell be inserted into the target cell group (like heart muscle) from there, by some process that is currently not understood, the stem cells begin making heart muscle cells. This adaptive quality of stem cells (having the complete "build" information, just like every other cell) yet somehow able to emulate and reproduce the type of cells it is inserted into. So which is acting on which. If for example you can take a stem cell from a sheep and insert it into a mass of human heart tissue and the stem cells spawn the growth of additional human heart tissue. Then I say what happened to the DNA of the Sheep in that stem cell.

Crossbreeding ie the pug example is not an example of either evolution or creation. It is simply a parallel example of human breeding where two individual DNA's are mixed resulting in a offspring that has a random (sort of) matrix of the two DNA's of the parents.

True creationizm would have to envolve taking an egg (single cell) from one animal type and by manipulating the protiens cause that egg to spawn an offspring that is seperate from the original genus of the donor egg. Ie taking a human egg and my switching the protiens and fertilizing it you get say a snake or a dog. Then you would have a scientific argument that any and all creatures could have evolved from one source, thus giving creadence to the Evolution Theory. But the kicker is that you must be able to prove that you can initiate life by having the right mix of chemicals and conditions, thus creating the right "chains" to exist to form the basis of a DNA structure to form. IF you can prove the above two experiments then you can say without a doubt that Evolution, from a single source, could have created such a wide variety of life on this planet. But if you can not re-create the single source cell (that forms a DNA structure) and if you can not succesfully change an egg from one genus to a different genus then you must rule with the creationist for only something that had a "master plan" for life could "program" the cell building structure needed to create the varius genus divisions.

This isn't my personal opinion, I'm open-minded (or a fence sitter) where creation vs evolution is concerned...but what if God created evolution?

What would be better for him upstairs than to create a world of life that manages and adapts itself when needed? Kind of a low-maintenance creation if you like...
Maybe God created this self managing life, so he could leave it be while he went and did some more creating elsewhere? That might explain why God 'sits there doing nothing while people rape, pilage and destroy one another'...he's off on another job.

Like I say, this isn't my opinion, just an interesting question that I've never seen asked or answered.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Here is another point I thought I should share.

Religion is based on faith. The christian religion especially is based on faith without proof. The idea behind it is the reward for blind faith. It is greater to believe without having proof than to believe because you know.

If evolution does not exist, then God MUST EXIST. If evolution does exist, then God may or may not exist.

So where is the blind faith. Evolution leaves room for both possibilities while the lack of it eliminates one. If there was no evolution, then there can be no faith.

Dude - you totally just mind #ed me

You are right GOD created the "instruction" set that allowed for the division of seperate genus groups. Somehow, someway, this instruction set got divided into several distinct groups. That within the group additional changes happened due to responses in the organizims enviroment. But there is still a distinct division between Genus groups. Its like GOD created 15 basic types, with a possibility of each of those types to mutant because of lineage changes, DNA matrix probabilities of the parent genes etc. So that eventually like millions of years down the road these original 15 types have now created multiple tiers below each one creating a wide variety of life forms.

Sorry American Mad Man. I am not good at communicating. In any case, let me try this again.

If Evolution does not exist, the God has no choice but to exist. In other words, we could not have started out any other way than being put here as humans to begin with. Leaving a necessity for God. If Evolution does exist, then God may or may not exist. This leaves room for faith (which is so highly regarded in the bible). Without evolution, faith in God is meaningless.

Now, even if evolution does exist (which it most certainly does occur), that does not rule out God. You still have fundamental questions to answer. The same questions that have sat in the minds of nearly everyone since rational thought was reality.

For starters, what makes us living creatures different from a rock? We have the same molecules and atoms inside of us. Why are we alive, what makes the difference? You can say consciousness, but again...what causes that? What is consciousness? WE can only speculate with our minds as to the meaning of that.

Another question that remains. What is infinity? What was here before the big bang? What is outside the bounds of a finite universe? We can't answer these questions. Our minds can't even begin to grasp ways to compensate for these questions. You can say there is, or there is not a God. Thats personal opinion. The answer to it lies somewhere in the questions I just posed above. The questions our minds are not capable of answering.

If there is a God, and he is all powerful as we are told, wouldn't it be within his means to create life in a way that it will evolve?

1. God created Heaven and Earth, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

2. Big Bang, DNA, Life on Earth, Nature

3. Aliens, DNA, Humans

or you could probably shuffle tose around abit.

I agree Seapeople, although I don't believe in God.

I also think God created the instruction set that made life possible. This would mean most of Genesis is not to be taken litteraly.
What I (still) don't get though, is how science explains the start of it all.
I read that site Kano, and even though it's very interesting and somewhat helpfull to me, the examples are all about butterflies changing colors, birds surviving because they have bigger mouths.
They act as if their theories apply to everything once it applies to one thing.
Of course people change depending on where they live, and that's probably why races don't look the same...
But what about difference between animals?
I don't mean a different color or different mouth, but a real difference. Apes turning into humans for example.
This must have taken somewhat more then some colorshifting and resizing.

Microevollution:

A bacteria exist that can cause disease in humans. There a billions of this bacteria spread across the planet. Random mutations happen. Some become immune to bleach, some develope a weakness to light, some become immune to penicilin.

Now, in country A people start using penicilin. All types of the bacteria are killed EXCEPT those that randomly became immune to penicilin. There were type immune to other things or weak to other thing but they ALL died except one type, one carrying a special new gene. Now, in country B they never used penicilin. But the type weak to light all died off because when a person sneezed it out, light hit it and it died before it could be passed on.

Things, lout survive all other, or some time a mutation is snuffed out. This is micro evolution. Same goes for simple differences like races of humans or beak size in birds.

Macroevolution

This is an example from natural history. (Visit the natural history meusem in DC if you want to actualy see the fossils.) A small shrew/mouse like creature lives in the woods. They do well and breed so much there is little room left for the in that ecosystem. Some of them are forced to go out to the plains to look for food. You now have two groups (evolution is driven a lot by 2 group being in seperate enviroments).

In the woods ones have many mutations good and bad. Some of the good ones might be around but since the other live too, they don't change over all.

The group on the plains are now easy prey for other animals because they can't hide. Random mutation causes all sorts of things to them. Some go from brown to tan, some grow 4 ears, some grow longer legs. Now the preditors have no problem catching the ones with 4 ears, they die out. And the tan ones still stand out too much, they die out, but the ones with longer legs can out run the preditors some of the time! So the preditors adapts, on the fast one live....now more mutations for speed are the survivors.

Longer legs...more muscle....cloven feet.....full hooves....even longer legs.....more muscle, more size....and a LONG LONG way down the line, you have a horse. Durring this time you may have seen all sorts of odd mutations, but only the ones adapted to speed lived. Also, the color didn't matter if you were fast, so horses can be various colors.

Yet still, back in the woods, the other group stayed small for hiding in trees. The only change that made a big difference there was how fast they could climb. And sure enough, a big bushy tail for counter weight helped. And they became squirls.

1 mouse like creature, lots of steps, 2 different groups, horses and squirls.

Small steps, many many generations, evolution.

Now as to how it all started.

No one knows. There is lots of research showing the ancient conditions of earth would create biphospholipids for cell walls, as well as other parts of a living cell. But in the end, no one knows.

Science is working on it, but when it comes to figuring out the past its a little tough.

For some people its hard to not know, so making up a creator god helps settle that inability.

If you are looking for TRUTH, look to science. If you are looking for the answers to everything, right OR wrong, try religion.

I for one like to find out the truth or die trying.