Why do Atheists care about religion?

reply to post by Gawdzilla


If the Pharoah was considered a god why would they document such a great defeat from another deity? It would be in their best interest to not make it announced. We know that God's divine name Yahweh was used by the people living in Amenhotep's time in an inscription.

gertoux.online.fr...

www.divinename.no...

Why would they refer to the God of Israel in this if it did not happen?

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Canannites, true. But only speculation that they were Hebrews.

ok...what about....

Archaeology uncovers the history of the land of Rameses

Archaeology uncovers the history of the land of Rameses
Ancient Rameses is located at Tell el-Daba in the eastern Delta, approximately 100 km northeast of Cairo. In antiquity, the Pelusiac branch of the Nile flowed past the site, giving access to the Mediterranean. In addition, the town lay on the land route to Canaan, the famous Horus Road. Thus, it was an important commercial and military center.

Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. —Exodus 1:8


We can divide the history of the site into three periods: pre-Hyksos, Hyksos and post-Hyksos. The Hyksos were a Semitic people from Syria-Palestine, who took up residence in the eastern Nile Delta and eventually ruled northern Egypt for some 108 years, ca. 1663-1555 BC (15th Dynasty).[1] Jacob and his family arrived in Egypt around 1880 BC, based on an Exodus date of ca. 1450 BC. That was in the pre-Hyksos period when the name of the town was Rowaty, "the door of the two roads" (Bietak 1996: 9,19). [2]

Could this be the Israelites?
Bietak may have, for the first time, found physical evidence for the presence of the Israelites in Egypt. It is the right culture in the right place at the right time.
The earliest evidence for Asiatics at Rowaty (the city that later named Rameses) occurs in the late 12th Dynasty (mid 19th century BC). [3] At that time a rural settlement was founded. It was unfortified, although there were many enclosure walls, most likely for keeping animals. The living quarters consisted of rectangular huts built of sand bricks (Bietak 1986: 237; 1991b: 32). It is highly possible that this is the first material evidence of Israelites in Egypt. It is the right culture in the right place at the right time.

Not all residents of the first Asiatic settlement at Tell el-Daba lived in huts. One of them, evidently an important official, lived in a small villa. The Bible tells us that Joseph became a high official after he correctly interpreted pharaoh's dreams (Genesis 41:39-45). We are not told where Joseph lived while serving in the Egyptian bureaucracy. It seems logical to assume, however, that after discharging his duties associated with the famine, he would have moved to Rameses to be near his father and brothers.

Could this villa have been Joseph's house? [4]
The villa was 10 x 12 meters in size, situated on one side of an enclosure measuring 12 x 19 meters. It consisted of six rooms laid out in horseshoe fashion around an open courtyard. The most striking aspect of the house is that the floor plan is identical to the Israelite “four-room house” of the later Iron Age in Palestine (Holladay 1992a). In this type of house two side rooms and a back room were arranged around a central space, or courtyard. [5]

Nearby, arranged in a semi-circle around the villa, were poorer two-roomed homes, approximately 6 x 8 meters in size. If the villa was the home of Joseph, then the surrounding huts might have been those of Joseph's father and brothers. Approximately 20% of the pottery found in the settlement debris was of Palestinian Middle Bronze Age type (Bietak 1996: 10). In the open spaces southwest of the villa was the cemetery of the settlement. Here, some of the most startling evidence was found.

Hebrew Tombs?
The tombs were constructed of mud bricks in Egyptian fashion, but the contents were strictly Asiatic. Although they had been thoroughly plundered, 50% of the male burials still had weapons of Palestinian type in them. Typically, the deceased males were equipped with two javelins, battle-axes and daggers. Tomb 8 contained a fine example of a duckbill-ax and an embossed belt of bronze (Bietak 1996: 14). One of the tombs, however, was totally unique and unlike anything ever found in Egypt…

Joseph's tomb?
At the southwest end of the burial area, some 83 meters from the villa compound, was a monumental tomb, Tomb 1. It was composed of a nearly square superstructure containing the main burial chamber, and a chapel annex. In a robbers' pit sunk into the chapel, excavators found fragments of a colossal statue depicting an Asiatic dignitary. The likeness was of a seated official 1 times life size. It was made of limestone and exhibited excellent workmanship. The skin was yellow, the traditional color of Asiatics in Egyptian art. It had a mushroom-shaped hairstyle, painted red, typical of that shown in Egyptian artwork for Asiatics. A throwstick, the Egyptian hieroglyph for a foreigner, was held against the right shoulder. The statue had been intentionally smashed and defaced (Bietak 1996: 20-21).

In his book Pharaohs and Kings: A Biblical Quest, David Rohl suggests that this is the tomb of Joseph himself (1995: 360-67).[6] The evidence seems to support this hypothesis. We must assume that Tomb 1 was that of the occupant of the villa, and thus possibly of Joseph himself. The Bible is very specific as to what became of Joseph's body.

"So Joseph died, being one hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt." —Genesis 50:26

Moses took the bones of Joseph with him during the Exodus because Joseph had made the sons of Israel swear an oath.

Joseph had said, "God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up with your from this place." —Exodus 13:19; cf. Genesis 50:25

Inside the burial chamber excavators found fragments of an inscribed limestone sarcophagus and a few bone fragments, but no intact skeleton as in the other tombs in the cemetery (Bietak 1991a: 61). Sometime after the burial, a pit was dug at the end of the chapel and a tunnel dug into the burial chamber. The “coffin” (sarcophagus) was then broken and the remains of the deceased removed by these “tomb robbers” (Rohl 1995: 363). It was common for tombs to be broken into in antiquity and the valuables removed, but to have the body taken is highly unusual.

Was the statue broken at the time the bones were removed, or was that done at another time? Archaeology cannot tell us the answer; we can only speculate.

It is likely that the statue was broken during a time of political turmoil (Bietak 1996: 21), possibly when the Hyksos took over rule of the region. It appears most likely that the "new king, who did not know about Joseph" (Exodus 1:8) was the first Hyksos king who came to power ca. 1663 BC.[7] At that time, the Israelites came under intense oppression (Exodus 1:9-11). Perhaps the Hyksos destroyed the statue when they overthrew local Egyptian authority. Since the remains in the tomb would also have been in danger, faithful Israelites may have removed them for safekeeping at this time

more here.. www.christiananswers.net...

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Canannites, true. But only speculation that they were Hebrews.

Yes...


but what about....

The Hebrew Exodus
The Hebrew Exodus

When? about 1500 B.C.

Collateral source: Expulsion of of Hyksos (lived around Avaris, Egypt aka: Tell el-Dab'a) in Egyptian documents & wall paintings. Joseph's court seals have even possibly been found in Avaris. Also, A "cry out" to "L", one of the first letters indicating the Hebrew God has been found inscribed on Egyptian walls. Avaris is also the location of Rameses, the place where the Israelites settled (Genesis 47:11) and where they departed from (Exodus 12:37).


"He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths, as through the wilderness. And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy. And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left."
Psalm 106 verses 9-11 (c. 1023 B.C.)

link: bibleprobe.com...

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Canannites, true. But only speculation that they were Hebrews.

G, I have watched you over the last month...


You bring so much wisdom to ATS....


Glad you have joined us....


pls see...

ABRAHAM

ABRAHAM

Abraham came to Egypt during the 21st century BC, at the end of the First Intermediate Period (Gn 12:10; 13:1). The 11th Dynasty based in Thebes was just gaining power in the south and would ultimately control all of Egypt. So the Pharaoh that Abraham met (Gn 12:15–20) may have been a northern leader who took the title, or an early king from the Theban dynasty. Presumably, their encounter took place in the delta area.

While in this region, Abraham probably saw the Giza pyramids on the Nile’s west bank. Giza is the northern-most and most famous of the Old Kingdom royal cemeteries in the delta region, including Meidum, Dahshur, Saqqara and Abusir. They were located near Memphis, the national capital at that time. While the most famous and largest pyramids are at Giza (Fourth Dynasty; 27th-26th century BC), the first was a four-sided stepped stone construction built by Pharaoh Djoser (Third Dynasty; 27th century BC) at Saqqara. Pharaoh Sneferu (Fourth Dynasty; 25th century BC) constructed the earliest smooth-sided pyramid in the form we know today at Dahshur.



Pyramid development. They started from a flattop rectangular mud-brick tomb, called a mastaba (Arabic for “bench”). The first pyramid (left) was a series of six increasingly smaller mastabas, one on top of the other. The famous builder Imhotep constructed the four-sided stone structure for Pharaoh Djoser (Third Dynasty; 27th century BC) at Saqqara. This stepped pyramid is the oldest freestanding stone structure in the world. From Djoser’s stepped pyramid came the first real pyramid with four smoothed flat sides, constructed by Pharaoh Sneferu (Fourth Dynasty; 27th century BC) at Dahshur (center). Unfortunately, his builders were forced to correct the slope half way up, and it is known today as the Bent Pyramid. A later Sneferu pyramid at Dahshur, known today as the Red Pyramid because of the reddish color of the local limestone that was used in its construction, was perfectly constructed and is generally recognized as the first true pyramid (right). Contrary to popular opinion, none of Egypt’s royal pyramids were constructed by Israelite slaves. Instead, known archaeological evidence suggests they were constructed by professional builders who lived in nearby villages and spent their lives working on the project.

Pyramid of 12th Dynasty Pharaoh Sesostris II at El-Lahun in Lower Egypt. This was possibly the Pharaoh under whom Joseph rose to the position of vizier in Egypt. Although a Middle Kingdom Pharaonic tomb, it was much smaller than the Old Kingdom pyramids at Giza. Sesostris II’s pyramid was constructed of a mud-brick core with a limestone casing. All that remains today is the mud-brick core, as the casing was stripped away long ago by locals for building material.

JOSEPH

The Midianites would have brought Joseph to Egypt by way of the Horus Road (Gn 37:28; 39:1). Once in Egypt, he was sold to Potiphar, a high Egyptian official, and apparently worked as a slave on Potiphar’s estate in the delta (Gn 39:1, 2). Interestingly, Egyptian history indicates that slavery first appeared at this very time period (Aling 2002: 35–37).

Egypt’s 12th Dynasty (ca. 1991–1786 BC) built a new capital city in Upper Egypt’s northern extremity, close to the delta. From here they could more effectively administrate and access their eastern frontier (Leprohon 1992: 345–46). Called itj-tawy, it was probably located near the capital’s royal necropolis at el-Lahun, at the entrance to the Faiyum, a large fertile area west of the Nile. The actual site is unknown today (Ray 2004: 40). Here was constructed the pyramid of 12th Dynasty Pharaoh Sesostris II (ca. 1897–1877 BC). Biblical dating suggests this was the Pharaoh under whom Joseph rose to the position of vizier in Egypt (Gn 45:8). As the most powerful man in the kingdom, Joseph would have visited and even had authority over construction of this pyramid. In fact, Joseph may have supervised Pharaoh’s burial here.

Joseph most likely served under Sesostris II’s son, Sesostris III (ca.1878–1843 BC), during the years of famine. Sesostris III’s own pyramid tomb at Dahshur (northern Upper Egypt) also would have been a major responsibility for Joseph. Since documents mention later viziers during Sesostris III’s reign, Joseph probably went into honorable retirement in the delta’s Goshen region shortly after the years of famine.

more... www.biblearchaeology.org...


the evidence is OVERWHELMING.....I'd say chose another argument...OT is ready and willing to help....


OT out...waiting for Celtics/Magic game......

reply to post by OldThinker


If you don't hold the Bible to be the word of god there's very little support for the Hyksos being Hebrews. I think the Bible would have mentioned it if they had conquered Egypt, don't you? Even if they were thrown out later. (In a "revolt" that is well documented, btw.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by OldThinker

 

If you don't hold the Bible to be the word of god there's very little support for the Hyksos being Hebrews. I think the Bible would have mentioned it if they had conquered Egypt, don't you? Even if they were thrown out later. (In a "revolt" that is well documented, btw.

My friend that is an easy excuse...a INTERNAL-DISTRACTION...sorry..pls see...

www.scribd.com...


I'm feelin lead to drop this PUBLICALLY....I'm a U2U away if needed....

Prayin for you friend....cu on next thread...

OT
Phil 1:3

reply to post by OldThinker


Using the bible to prove the bible? That won't work. Can't even give you a "nice try" on that one.

That's like using a word to define a word.

Not a one liner.



[edit on 4-5-2009 by Kiltedninja]

reply to post by OldThinker


You know what your problem is, OT? You don't consider your assertions from any other perspective other than they are right.

You'll site any document that supports them and ignore any and all criticisms, you completely put aside the idea that you might be wrong. You said it yourself that you were biased. Can't you see that that is exactly what's going on here? If your biased, there is no way to set what you want to be apart from what actually is.

reply to post by Welfhard


My young friend...why would I be disloyal to my best friend, the Lord Jesus...for me it is not about winning an argument...if i were a fish, why would I support the "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WATER SOCIETY"???

Time will tell huh?

OT

I really don't have a "problem" really...



I could make the same argument with you...and your closed-mindedness to my points...

let's see after a few decades my man...

Praying for you and your studies...

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by Welfhard

 

My young friend...why would I be disloyal to my best friend, the Lord Jesus...for me it is not about winning an argument...if i were a fish, why would I support the "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WATER SOCIETY"???

That's a cop-out. Reality never intrudes, does it? "Just hangin' with Jesus, no need to think about things, that would spoil the whole thing."

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Jesus actually helps you see reality in a "different" light. I have a firm grip on reality, and a firm grip on faith.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Jesus actually helps you see reality in a "different" light. I have a firm grip on reality, and a firm grip on faith.

If you pray to a zombie Jewish carpenter I have a question about your grip on reality. The whole religion thing is just woo in a cheap suit. How is that "reality"?

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
That's a cop-out. Reality never intrudes, does it? "Just hangin' with Jesus, no need to think about things, that would spoil the whole thing."

Things that would spoil the whole thing are, not coming from within, you see, it's not a believers fault if they happen ...

That is a purpose of Satan (A.K.A. Agent of Reality-Sucks).

Two opposing forces constantly testing, pushing and pulling and trying to tear apart that allegedly free mind of the believer.

The ancient battle of the good and evil...

Oh, my.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


You really don't get the concept of the ransom for humanity do you? I trust in Jesus more than I trust my own mother. I guess God only reveals Himself to those who are willing to let Him do that. You can't shout up at the sky and expect to receive a reply that's not how it works. He's not a zombie, that's just some ritual in Haiti where someone PRETENDS to be raised back up not some flesh-eating mindless wandering heap of flesh. It is Resurrection. If you don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead you can't believe in the faith at all. Science still can't disprove there is an intelligence up there (or rather out there and everywhere) but what it can prove is just that. There's a reason the Earth's gravity and ecosystem works so well within itself to so perfectly have us able to have this discussion right now. If the universe were random there would be no order. It's not because of primordial soup. It's because God designed theory of evolution up to a point or missing link, and then intervened with modern style man with the Garden of Eden.

reply to post by OldThinker

My young friend...why would I be disloyal to my best friend, the Lord Jesus.

But you cannot be loyal, or by that token, disloyal to a being that does not exist, merely the following there of. Prove conclusively, that Jesus, a Jewish zombie, in fact exists. Then you can justify your loyalty.

if i were a fish, why would I support the "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WATER SOCIETY"???

But you are not a fish, and we are not suggesting the medium in which we move does not in fact exist. A more accurate metaphor would be us, as fish, arguing that the oceans and seas were not hand-crafted but formed of their own accord by natural processes over countless ages.

I really don't have a "problem" really.

Not in your eyes, but a gentle reminder: Matthew 7:3.

As you say, "time will tell, huh?"

I could make the same argument with you...and your closed-mindedness to my points

In point of fact, it was open-mindedness that got me here after a childhood or indoctrination. I don't think I could get anymore open minded.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Gawdzilla

If you pray to a zombie Jewish carpenter I have a question about your grip on reality.

Keeping in mind that this was a carpenter who didn't make anything, he was a bum who strolled around in a gang assaulting out-of-season fig trees out of rage

Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

You really don't get the concept of the ransom for humanity do you? I trust in Jesus more than I trust my own mother. I guess God only reveals Himself to those who are willing to let Him do that.

That's an amazingly sus point. People who are willing to "let god reveal himself" are those who want it to be so. The resulting 'belief' is purely circular logic.

He's not a zombie.
...
It is Resurrection.

Be pretty much the definition of a zombie - a corpse reanimated by a spiritual force.

If you don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead you can't believe in the faith at all. Science still can't disprove there is an intelligence up there (or rather out there and everywhere) but what it can prove is just that. There's a reason the Earth's gravity and ecosystem works so well within itself to so perfectly have us able to have this discussion right now. If the universe were random there would be no order. It's not because of primordial soup. It's because God designed theory of evolution up to a point or missing link, and then intervened with modern style man with the Garden of Eden.

In a universe like ours, so vast, the whilst life may have very little opportunity to develop, it still will. Imagine if our world did not form, but others did. It wouldn't matter how many or how few worlds formed - they'd all be saying "we live and life is complex, therefore this cannot be a coincidence or an occurrence by chance."

The fact remains, it's not long rolling dice before you get a 6. In the case of life, there is the limitless cosmos itself, and 13.7 billion years of time. Life somewhere is a certainty.

What's more is that life is not designed intelligently. I mean, what's the deal with having jaws too small for all our teeth? Or goosebumps? They serve no purpose what so ever. There is stupidity in our "design", if it is designed.

reply to post by watchtheashes


"You really don't get the concept of the ransom for humanity do you?"

I seldom "get" stupid ideas like "ransom for humanity". If a "god" needed a "ransom", I wouldn't respect it anyway. The concept is an absurd rationalization of a idea rooted in "do what we tell you or die!" as generated by the loafers in the priest vestments.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
I trust in Jesus more than I trust my own mother. I guess God only reveals Himself to those who are willing to let Him do that.

Don't take my word for this...But...

One of the major reasons, IMO, that destroys so many (statistically speaking) marriages in USA, where Cristian faith predominates, is that people trust and find God and Jesus more important in their life that their own spouses (or anybody else in their family for that matter).

Often, rather than deal with reality of family problems them selfs, people turn to faith and religion to intermediate and guide them through it, which is more likely doomed to fail