Cancel F-22 Raptor Production For World Peace

As a person who actually worked in the Skunk Works, I can speak without guessing a whole lot about some things that have to do with the economics of building experimental aircraft. Basically, it gets easier (and cheaper) after you work the bugs out of 'em. Then you build about a thousand of 'em outside the Skunk Works, each one cheaper than the last, and keep working on the next several generations of aircraft inside the Skunk Works.

Unlike US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said that "In a perfect world" the military could buy all of the high tech weapons it wanted, I have to disagree completely.

In a perfect world, the only kind of aircraft we would build would be toys that couldn't harm a flea. But, guess what? Robert Gates is clueless about what a perfect world would look like. So, we have to try to focus on defending our way of life, not trying to change the rest of the world according to what fools like Gates thinks a perfect world would be!

One of the things we do well is develop and build amazing and innovative things. The F-22 Raptor is one of those things. The US taxpayer has paid heavily to perfect this airplane. Now is the time to build about another 400 or 500 of them (in the US not China please). It might be an important piece of keeping the whole world from falling into a full-blown economic depression.

(Calling India! Why not order enough of them to keep the production line from being ended forever! and help keep the Skunk Works alive.)

Contrary to the Press Conference Gates gave this week, the original plan for the F-22 was to replace the aging fleet of almost seven hundred aging F-15's:

"As the air-defense and air-combat capabilities of other nations, most notably China, increase, the demand for F-22s would likewise rise. And the Air Force will have to manage this small fleet of Raptors over 30 years. Compare that number with the 660 F-15s flying today, but which are literally falling apart at the seams from age and use. The F-22 is not merely a replacement for the F-15; it also performs the functions of electronic warfare and other support aircraft."

- Thomas Donnelly and Gary Schmitt of the American Enterprise Institute, Wall Street Journal, 4/8/09

[edit on 4/11/0909 by BFO]

reply to post by BFO


I think that we are in another arms race/cold war with China/Russia. Do you think anything they have or have on the table can match the F-22? This economic situation can only get worse because of runaway spending.

reply to post by USamf


The whole point of continuing an existing production line is that the items get cheaper when you make a longer production run. Nobody seems to care that we have committed to spend trillions over the past few months and nobody really knows what for, to whom, nor how we will pay it.

As far as the MIC thing, If we have enough F-22's we will not be attacked from the air. How much is enough? The original plan was to replace the complete F-15 fleet. Doing that would not be escalating anything. That is the end of that story. I am against imperialism by any country no matter what their political philosophy is.

As far as nuclear, chemical, biological threats, I am not commenting on that. I truly hope Obama's diplomacy can deal with those things.

[edit on 4/11/0909 by BFO]

reply to post by USamf

What Obama promised in his presidential campaign was to not spend more on "unproven technologies". The F-22 has more than proved it's capabilities. There is not a better plane on the planet. What if we do get attacked by ET? I'm just saying...

Yes, we need to advance in every way and in every branch. We need to keep trucking along in my opinion. There is always that possibility.

yeah, another unnecessary arms race. keep spending those money on stuff that would only kill us. good riddance to f-22s.

reply to post by BFO


The most amazing part of cancelling 'unproven technologies', is that ALL military hardware that is being developed is 'unproven'; we didn't have the ability to test the hardware before we had it. In this day and age, we do not have time machines. So are these idiots actually for cancelling all military development? Should we go back to weapons used in the Vietnam War? Should we of sticked to swords? The answer is no and it's plain obvious.

So what does 'unproven' mean? Given all military hardware is at the least tested, it could mean all weapons under development are now 'proven'. Given the latest defense budget, it's clear that this is true. It really has NOTHING to do with 'unproven' technologies, it has everything to do with excuses to cancel any programme they want under the guise of 'unproven' and then fund others saying they are 'proven'. It's an excuse to cancel projects and then fund their own pet projects; just like the F-22, F-35 debacle - because everyone knows 513 Stealth Strike Fighters are both proven and nessesary for the "war on terror". After all it has 'flown', right? (2% of flight testing has been completed).

yeah, another unnecessary arms race.

Nothing to do with an arms race - there is no arms race and if there is then the F-22 certainly was never a part of it. In a way, it is the product of a arms race - one that has ended.

keep spending those money on stuff that would only kill us. good riddance to f-22s.

One of the worst excuses to cancelling the F-22 is that it is 'unnessesary'. Too 'expensive'. It spawns 'arms races'. None of which make any sense - because the same people generally are for expanding the american military into just about every country on the planet while funding their own pet programmes, that never seem to get this label. Gates is funding 513 F-35's within the next five years, yet ALL that same excuses which apply to the F-22 apply to the F-35. Why F-35 and not F-22? Why DDG-1000 ships that cost as much as an aircraft carrier? Why is the military budget yet 50 billion dollars higher than the last and still our (your) fighters are breaking apart?

And what's worse is when the same loons talk about it not being nessesary for the 'war on terror'. And I suppose bases in some country you've never heard of are essential to the war on terror too? I suppose Ohio nuclear missile submarines are nessesary. Christ. The F-22 was never designed for the 'war on terror' (neither was 99% of the hardware they're using) - it was designed as an air dominance fighter for the cold war. The Cold War has ended, yes.

But that is not the reason for getting the F-22. The reason for getting the F-22 is the F-15 is in need of replacement; it is both old and incapable in this day and age. If the F-22 is not needed then the F-15 is not needed either; most of the same excuses about the 'Cold War' still apply. So; if we cancel the F-22, do we drive the fighter fleet literally into the ground, or do we hypocritically ('war on terror' my arse) finance the F-35; an aircraft which is yet another product of the Cold War and also never designed and cannot compete with the F-22? Or, is the cycle yet going to continue again, the next administration realises we screwed up, and starts another project to replace the F-15 wasting even MORE money?

Title of the thread should be; "Cancel the F-22 so I can finance my own pet projects". F-22 is not used in current wars however, I am of the opinion that in the event of a major war both the F-22 and F-35 are nessesary if the United States of America wishes to maintain its global empire. Anyone who disagrees on the usual basis(s) should really take a look at what projects their taxes keep on funding; anything less is hypocrisy or ignorance.

[edit on 11/4/2009 by C0bzz]

no don't cancel , continue producing useless weapons , the more you produce the faster your nation will bankrupt and faster its fall will come

oooh ok so dont cancel, lets keep using those tax dollars for R&D of planes for the imaginary war and that war the US will declare oh so soon in another random country. its the american way to waste money and keep those rich unnecessary companies afloat!

Just take a look at this video of the F-22 Raptor, then decide if this would not help deter aggression. This is not a debate about the misuse of power. Or, maybe it is, in a way. Not completely replacing the F-15 fleet with somewhere around 700 aircraft is inviting aggression against the US and her allies. It is inviting WW III.

I am not talking about the fact that there are severe problems in the policies and practices of the government of the US. Obama is supposed to be correcting that.

I implore Australia, India, the UK, Germany, Spain, France, maybe even Japan, Poland, Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Canada, Mexico or other friends of the US to order a few dozen each of these amazing aircraft to help keep the production line from being destroyed - and the world from plunging into complete mayhem. Once the production line is shut down, that is it. The reasonably priced aircraft that come out of a longer production run will never happen. The US is lacking the political will to do what makes sense at this time, thanks to the "expert" advice of Robert Gates.

I am trying to focus on the economic sense of continuing the F-22 production run so that the start-up costs can be re-cooped. The F-22 is not an R&D project as 180attoseconds seems to think. There are so few people left who have ever worked in plants that actually physically produce something, the main ones around who can understand this concept are workers (and accountants) in factories in places like Russia, China, India and a few in places like the US and others.

The aero-space industry in the west has had to scrap for it's companies' survival since their inception. They are nothing like the wasteful automotive companies that are getting and always have gotten government bailouts even though they have known since 1973 that we were running out of fuel, and kept building gas-hogs like crazy.

Aerospace workers, even IAM or Engineers & Scientist's Guild union members get layed-off all of the time without compensation like UAW workers.

I am actually more anti-establishment than Kombatt98 who mentioned something about wasteful spending on something like the F-22 will help bring down the great satan of the west. This kind of work employs not only scientists, engineers, technicians, machinists, flight crews, support personnel, and support industries (several times more than the jobs that will be lost at Lockheed), it helps advance technology while pumping money into the economy. That is why Kombatt98 is gleeful that this program is getting cancelled. Because, in fact, this is exactly the kind of project that would help prevent the complete fall of the US and what little stability is left in the world. Forget about bankruptcy, that happened back in 1933.

Of course, "proven" technologies can be looked at in terms of actual combat accomplishments. If we want to look back to the air battles of WWII, the very first "skunk works" plane, the P-38 Lightening, out-performed any fighter in that horrible war to stop fascism. But, history tends to ignore such facts.

[edit on 4/11/0909 by BFO]

oooh ok so dont cancel, lets keep using those tax dollars for R&D of planes for the imaginary war and that war the US will declare oh so soon in another random country. its the american way to waste money and keep those rich unnecessary companies afloat!

no don't cancel , continue producing useless weapons , the more you produce the faster your nation will bankrupt and faster its fall will come

In a way I would agree with you, but please remember the military budget is 50 billion dollars higher than the last and even more super expensive pet projects exist. This is more directed at Gates himself; why cancel the F-22 because it is "too expensive", / "not needed"? Are 513 JSF in 5 years and 4.8 billion dollar each DDG-1000 cheap and needed are they?

I implore Australia, India, the UK, Germany, Spain, France, maybe even Japan, Poland, Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Canada, Mexico or other friends of the US to order a few dozen each of these amazing aircraft to help keep the production line from being destroyed - and the world from plunging into complete mayhem.

F-22 is not needed by most of those countries; it is either too expensive, does not provide the capability, no fighters are needed, or a combination of the three. Never be sold to most of them from sensitive technology. Law is prohibiting the F-22 from being sold and further development funds would be required for an export version.

Also on the jobs issue... give and take... F-22 will go from about 24,000 this year to about 11,000 in 2011. But Joint Strike Fighter will go from 38,000 people working this year to 82,000 people in 2011. Doubt expensive fighter jets would help get the world out of a depression.... 400- 500 is waaay too expensive. Everythings already developed and many technologies are already moving on to other aircraft like the JSF.

I think another 50 - 100 or less would do. Main reason I'm usually pro F-22 is because it's either now or never - once the line shuts down that's it - and it does things the F-35 cannot do. Air Force generally says 187 is insufficient, and I don't think fitting the bill with a whole new airplane down the road in 15 years is a better alternative...

[edit on 11/4/2009 by C0bzz]

reply to post by USamf


Well history tells us the only one of the two we should worry about is China. Russia has had the mentality and the balls but always have been poorly equipped with shoddy equipment.

China is the new sleeping dragon. They are driving our economy and wrote the book on spying and espionage, heh they got caught with their fingers in the cookie trying to be a front for a data management company that was going to provide the internet backbone for Australia.

What people also don't realize is that if they are canceling production for this "aging" fleet, they have a replacement for that f-22.

Originally posted by C0bzz
Everythings already developed and many technologies are already moving on to other aircraft like the JSF.

I think another 50 - 100 or less would do. Main reason I'm usually pro F-22 is because it's either now or never - once the line shuts down that's it - and it does things the F-35 cannot do. Air Force generally says 187 is insufficient, and I don't think fitting the bill with a whole new airplane down the road in 15 years is a better alternative...

What I heard is that the Air Force would like at least 60 more. But that is the "perfect world" Gates is in lala land about. Gates has done the perfect con job on this. Everybody is buying his story even though it is wrong. The F-35 is meant to be part of a larger tactic that includes more F-22's. And I know you are right about not being able to trust that exports might fall into the wrong hands. It is really a shame though, especially with the French because if we could learn to trust each other, they are very good with the latest manufacturing techniques for advanced composite technology. And they all could benefit from our avionics. But never fear, Hillary will make sure that falls into the wrong hands, and our friends WON'T be able to buy even a single squadron of F-22's.

You are right. The production costs of the next -however many- F-22's will be a lot cheaper to make.

Think of it like this: How much do you think GM would charge per Corvette if they only built 187 of them?

even if we do get world peace.. why do people then think we don't need weapon platforms for our defence and protection.. there will allways be people against systems even if that system is responsible for world peace. even if everybody is content the universe is a big place and we have to be prepared and invest in future systems for the protection against future enemies from outer space or from paralel dimensions or other not yet know places.
yes I am for world peace but you'll have to protect that peace with arms from whom ever wants to take our freedom and our peace away from us.. and there for we even might have to build space based systems and space carriers with tacticle particle weapons , fast attack fighters ect to protect earth from treaths from out there , inteligent or non intelligent , even against comets and astroids we need protection and that are weapon platforms .
so if you want world peace don't take away any means to protect or ways to get peace and go out and take out the things holding peace back.. like religions who say they are for world peace but only want to get it by impossing religious laws and taking freedom away from people .. beware of falls prophets who say there is a god or many gods if there is no factional evidence to prove there claims because they want a religious political system were people have no thing to say and you have to obey there ways .. that is no peace .. Peace is has to come out of freedom and not trough slavery to what ever relgious system or totalitarian regime which we have had for over 2000 years .

Originally posted by BFO

Unlike US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said that "In a perfect world" the military could buy all of the high tech weapons it wanted, I have to disagree completely.

In a perfect world, the only kind of aircraft we would build would be toys that couldn't harm a flea. But, guess what? Robert Gates is clueless about what a perfect world would look like.

Robert Gates is a brown nose with political motivations. If Obama were to go around a corner too fast Gates' nose would be knocked out of joint.

But, to say that Gates is clueless in some philosophical realm regarding his perception of a perfect world is a waste of space on here and has no relevance.

Originally posted by BFO
One of the things we do well is develop and build amazing and innovative things. The US taxpayer has paid heavily to perfect this airplane. Now is the time to build about another 400 or 500 of them (in the US not China please). It might be an important piece of keeping the whole world from falling into a full-blown economic depression.

While you are making an admirable point regarding keeping the Raptor in production, there is NO WAY China would have an opportunity to build the F-22 Raptor, that would be illegal.

Originally posted by BFO(Calling India! Why not order enough of them to keep the production line from being ended forever! and help keep the Skunk Works alive.)

Ditto on India - illegal to export the F-22, just ask Japan, Israel & Australia, all staunch US allies who have been denied even a knocked down export version of the F-22.

Cancelling F22 will no way result in world peace, in fact world peace will be further from grasp.
The reason is plain and simple, there is no way the Op or anyone can guarantee that for every weapon we lay down, the enemy will do the same.

"We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex... Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

- Dwight D. Eisenhower.




Your country is verging on bankruptcy. You people are going to have to start to understand there are more important things to invest in than $150million (+maintenance) white elephants.


The F-22 has become a completely unnecessary aircraft. China already have your country by the balls financially, and buying another few billion dollars worth of silver bullet aircraft only strengthens their hand, not weakening it.

Hey, we’re in the bright new world of the Obama Administration, where us terrible war like Americans will win the world’s respect by not being arrogant and dismissive; where we will dialog in the United Nations about “man made disasters” and “overseas contingency operations” instead of acting unilaterally to defend ourselves. Remember, ‘we are the world’ now! Who needs those horrible war like F-22s’? We are already going to unilaterally nuclear disarm because we were the first Nation to use nukes, we must lead the way to our happy new world!

Lets all go huge a tree and we’ll feel so much better! Maybe put some daisies on those SA-300 antiaircraft missiles the Russians are deploying that the F-22s’ were designed to defeat? Certainly, the Russians will join us in singing ‘we are the world’, drink a coke and get rid of the SA-300s too!


[edit on 4/14/2009 by SGTChas]

reply to post by SGTChas


You're right, I forgot about the fact that Obama is now a citizen of the world.

"We Are The World?"
I remember that song.
Can I take a crack at singing the Michael Jackson part?
       "We Are The World, we are the shil-gren....."

Also, do you have the lyrics for Kumbaya?

World peace here we come.

reply to post by kilcoo316


That's all fine and dandy but none of which were the reasons for cancelling the F-22. If it were then the budget would actually of been reduced rather than increased. Sad, really - so much waste.



[edit on 15/4/2009 by C0bzz]