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Originally posted by SLAYER69
This is really a riot
This is like the third thread I've read where the Carriers are doomed.
Can you imagine any admiral just sailing a fleet right into harms way without stopping and thinking about the possible hazards to his fleet.
Come on man.
As much as some hate the US or it's Navy, you cant possibly think they are that stupid.
Originally posted by rogue1
As things stand atm, none of the US Navy defences have been tested in real world combat, that being said neither have any opposing weapon systems been tested against a carrier. So anyone saying this or that has the upper hand, has no idea what they're talking about, as the scenario has never been played out. That includes me.
Are carriers vulnerable, damn right they are
Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by rogue1
And you have a source to back that up, right? Last I checked, P-3 Orion's could detect any nuclear sub and diesel subs make too much noise. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, but I'll need 3rd party confirmation to your claims before I do. Really folks, whatever happened to backing up claims with source material on these threads? It wasn't that long ago when it was the norm here.
Twenty-three years ago during the 1981 NATO exercise Ocean Venture, an unnamed 1960s vintage Canadian diesel submarine “sank” the carrier USS America without once being itself detected, and a second unidentified vintage sub “sank” the carrier USS Forrestal.
What did we learn from this?
Eight years later, during NATO exercise Northern Star, the Dutch diesel submarine Zwaardvis stalked and “sank” the USS America again. Did the America just have problems? Well, in RIMPAC 1996, the Chilean diesel submarine Simpson “sank” the carrier USS Independence, and in 1999 during NATO exercise JTFEX/TMDI99, Dutch diesel submarine Walrus not only “sank” the carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, but also “took out” the American exercise command ship USS Mount Whitney, plus a cruiser, several destroyers and frigates, and the nuke fast attack USS Boise – all without herself receiving a scratch.
Then, during RIMPAC 2000, the Australian Collins Class diesel sub HMAS Waller “sank” two American nuke fast attacks and got dangerously close to the carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. During Operation Tandem Thrust in 2001, HMAS Waller “sank” two American amphibious assault ships in waters between 200 to 350 feet deep, barely more than the length of the submarine itself, and an unnamed Chilean diesel sub “took out” nuclear fast attack sub USS Montpelier twice during successive exercise runs. A year later in October 2002, HMAS Sheehan successfully hunted down and “killed” the U.S. fast attack USS Olympia during exercises near Hawaii, and just a year ago in September 2003, in an unnamed (read “classified”) exercise, several Collins Class subs “sank” two U.S. fast attack subs and a carrier – all unnamed, of course. And a month later another Collins Class sub surprised and “sank” an American fast attack during another exercise.
www.argee.net...
Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by rogue1
It's not my job to prove your position. As to your source, it's not verified either. The author, who happens to be an author, doesn't bother to source his material either. But that's neither here nor there. No one, including myself, is stating that the Carrier fleet is invulnerable. There is no such thing as an invulnerable defense system. The position proposed in the OP is that the Carrier fleet is defenseless, which it is not. Is it possible to sink a carrier? Of course it is! Is it possible that you will fail due to the defenses of the carrier's battle group or the carrier itself? You better believe it! And if our Navy is soooooo defenseless, then why hasn't the Navy lost one single ship in battle in recent memory (at least 40 years)?
Originally posted by punkinworks09
or the millions of tons of supplies that included much needed winter gear that played a decisive role in the winter defence of moscow.
Originally posted by SLAYER69
Rogue Give it a rest.
A carrier battle group is not invulnerable.
Nothing is invulnerable!
Including those subs you keep bragging about. But a Carrier Battle group is also not a sitting duck! Not the way you would have others believe. As much as you like to point out a few cases where they could have taken a shot at the battle group. It has not happened in real life yet. So that says a lot. so you're whistling in the dark there.
Second...
Don't forget we also have subs. Sub warfare Cat and mouse has been going on for decades. What you wont find published is how many times The US navy has snuck up followed those very same subs. You wouldnt know that because the US NAVY doesn't publish that kind of information.
Now we have some new players. Doesn't mean the US navy will now just give up and run and hide
For every measure there is always a counter measure.
Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
One: I have reread every one of my posts on this thread, and not once did I say that the carrier fleet was invulnerable, NOT ONCE!
Two: Your "source" only references other articles that he has written and a "Thanks" to a Knightsbridge University professor for his research, but no mention of any publication that said research was published in.
Three: You can't seem to follow the simple rule of 'attack the post, not the poster' (the arrogant comment was uncalled for and just shows bad debating skills) so this debate (between you and I) is over. I suggest you review the decorum guidelines that are supposed to be used by all members here.
Originally posted by rogue1
Yes the old missile vs armour debate. Missile always wins.
It seems blatantly obvious the USN is having problems tracking these ultra quiet subs considering they had to lease a Swedish one to practice with.
Block I
USS Virginia (SSN-774), commissioned and in service
USS Texas (SSN-775), commissioned and in service
USS Hawaii (SSN-776), commissioned and in service
North Carolina (SSN-777), named December 11, 2000; scheduled delivery in 2007[1]; this is the last ship of the First Block or "Flight".
Block II
New Hampshire (SSN-778) has been ordered for delivery in 2008[1]
New Mexico (SSN-779) has been ordered for delivery in 2011
California (SSN-780) was ordered in 2005 and is expected to be delivered in April, 2011
SSN-781 was ordered in 2006 and is expected to be delivered in 2013
SSN-782 was ordered in 2006 and is expected to be delivered in 2013[2]
SSN-783 is expected to be ordered in 2008; this is the last ship of the Second Block or "Flight".
Block III
SSN-784 through approximately SSN-791 are planned to make up the Third Block or "Flight" and should begin construction in 2009.
Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
No one, including myself, is stating that the Carrier fleet is invulnerable. There is no such thing as an invulnerable defense system. The position proposed in the OP is that the Carrier fleet is defenseless, which it is not. Is it possible to sink a carrier? Of course it is! Is it possible that you will fail due to the defenses of the carrier's battle group or the carrier itself? You better believe it!