Why call them UFOs?

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
Repeatability is essential to science. I wouldn't "trust" anything that can't be repeated. This is the major problem with UFO sightings.

Fair enough. Out of curiosity do you think this kind of software platform would help shine light on the darker corners of this conundrum?

But we shouldn't make a case on a single datum point, or on a bunch of questionable ones. Remember the GIGO principle.

Absolutely, but just like the raccoon we need to use something from the initial observation to decide what to test later on. Do you think this is a worthwhile proposal?

Worth studying for what end? Pure research? Sure, go ahead.

In my mind the ultimate goal of science is to explain the unknown. This field seems like it could benefit from a little scientific illumination . Who knows what will come out the other side.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
"He coined this acronym to avoid all of the negative connotations associated with the "flying saucer."

General Shulgen's classified draft order is an interesting read -it was posted to American intelligence operatives throughout the world directing them to gather all potentially relevent information about 'flying saucers':

Appendix I: General USAF G. Schulgen 1947 memo Information about UFOs from thousands of eye witness reports and physical evidence such as landing marks, photos, videos and radar data, has been compiled over the last 60 years. Such descriptions have been put in official documents as early as 1947.
On 28-Oct-1947 General (USAF) George Schulgen, then Asst. Chief of Staff for Air Intelligence, issued a classified draft order (portions reprinted below) for American intelligence operatives throughout the world directing them to gather all potentially relevent information about "flying saucers":

Classified Draft Order:
"An alleged "Flying Saucer" type aircraft or object in flight, approximating the shape of a disc, has been reported by many observers from widely scattered places, such as the United States, Alaska, Canada, Hungary, the Island of Guam, and Japan. This object has been reported by many competent observers, including USAF rated officers. Sightings have been made from the ground as well as from the air.
Commonly reported features that are very significant and which may aid in the investigation are as follows:

Relatively flat bottom with extreme light-reflecting ability.

Absence of sound except for an occasional roar when operating under super performance conditions.

Extreme maneuverability and apparent ability to almost hover.
A plan form approximating that of an oval or disc with a dome shape on the top surface.

The absence of an exhaust trail except in a few instances when it was reported to have a bluish color, like a Diesel exhaust.

The ability to quickly disappear by high speed or by complete disintegration.

The ability to suddenly appear without warning as if from an extremely high altitude.

The size most reported approximated that of a C-54 or Constellation type aircraft.

The ability to group together very quickly in a tight formation when more than one aircraft are together.

Evasive action ability indicates possibility of being manually operated, or possibly by electronic or remote control devices.

Under certain power conditions, the craft seems to have the ability to cut a clear path through clouds -- width of path estimated to be approximately one-half mile.

Full Document:
www.project1947.com...

Link:
www.hyper.net...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

"General Shulgen's classified draft order is an interesting read -it was posted to American intelligence operatives throughout the world directing them to gather all potentially relevent information about 'flying saucers':"

And they still haven't found any. Not really surprising, is it?

reply to post by Gawdzilla


I don't realy know if its surprising or not -I do think there exists some credbile evidence for the UFO/OVNI/USO subject though.
Cheers.

Originally posted by karl 12
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

I don't realy know if its surprising or not -I do think there exists some credbile evidence for the UFO/OVNI/USO subject though.
Cheers.

Such as? I mean I've gone through thousands of pages of reports, and found nothing that would pass in a lab as evidence of any note.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Thanks for the reply -whilst theres no unequivocable proof out there in the public domain-there does exist credible government documentary evidence;radar/sonar confirmation evidence;electromagnetic interference/ground trace evidence;circumstantial evidence and photographic/video evidence.

If you're interested theres a good link here which documents some of the unexplained incidents like the Tehran case,the Alaska case and the Washington case(s):
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Theres also this thread which covers a few other aspects:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And this ones certainly worth a look:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Also,whilst not proving anything,these credible quotes are quite interesting:

"It is impossible for any man-made machine to make a sudden appearance in front of a jumbo jet that is flying 910 kilometers per hour and to remain in steady formation paralleling our aircraft. ... Honestly, we were simply breathtaken."
Japan Airlines pilot Kenju Terauchi in 1986


"This is the first sighting in Zimbabwe where airborne pilots have tried to intercept a UFO. As far as my Air Staff is concerned, we believe implicitly that the unexplained UFOs are from civilizations beyond our planet."
Air Commodore David Thorne, Director of General Operations for the Zimbabwe Air Force in 1985.


"The security guard called and said,Sir, there's a glowing red object hovering right outside the front gate. I've got all the men out here with their weapons drawn. We lost between
16-18 ICBMs (nuclear tipped Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles) at the same time UFOs were in the area. (A high ranking Air Force officer) said,"Stop the investigation; do no more on this and do not write a final report. I heard that many of the guards that reported the incident were sent off to Vietnam."
Captain Robert Salas, USAF, during a videotaped interview for the Disclosure program.


"It was the darndest thing I've ever seen. It was big, it was very bright, it changed colours, and it was about the size of the moon. We watched it for ten minutes, but none of us could figure out what it was. One thing's for sure: I'll never make fun of people who say they've seen unidentified flying objects in the sky.
Former President of the United States, Jimmy Carter following his sighting along with many others of a UFO at Leary, Georgia in October 1969.


"I have frequently been asked why a person of my background 'a former Chief of the Defence Staff, a former Chairman of the NATO Military Committee' why I think there is a cover-up (of) the facts about UFOs. I believe governments fear that if they did disclose those facts, people would panic. I don't believe that at all. There is a serious possibility that we are being visited by people from outer space. It behoves us to find out who they are, where they come from, and what they want."
Lord Admiral Hill-Norton (GCB), Chief of Defense Staff, Ministry of Defense, Britain; Chairman, Military Committee of NATO; Admiral of the Fleet; Member of House of Lords.


"It is time for the truth to be brought out in open Congressional hearings. Behind the scenes high ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."
Admiral Hillenkoetter-the first Director of the CIA, 1947-50.
February 27, 1960.


"Headquarters wouldn't let us go after it and we played around a little bit. We got to watching how it made 90 degree turns at this high speed and everything. We knew it wasn't a missile of any type, so then we confirmed it with the radar control station, and they kept following it, and then it crashed somewhere off between Texas and the Mexico border."
Colonel Robert Willingham, USAF from an Sworn Affidavit in the 1970's when discussing a sighting of a UFO whilst he was navigating an F94 jet on September 6th 1950.


"Flying saucers are real. Too many good men have seen them, that don't have hallucinations."
Captain Eddie Rickenbacker. World War I air ace.


"UFOs sighted in Indonesia are identical with those sighted in other countries. Sometimes they pose a problem for our Air Defence and once we were obliged to open fire on them."
Air Marshall Nurjadin Roesmin, Commander in Chief of the Indonesian Air Force in 1967.


"The most spectacular UFO incident in Indonesia occurred when during the height of President Sukarno's confrontation in Malaysia, UFOs penetrated a well defended area in Java for two weeks at a stretch, and each time were welcomed with perhaps the heaviest anti-aircraft barrage in history."
Air Commodore J. Salutun, National Aerospace Council of Indonesia, and a Member of the Indonesian Parliament in 1967.


"And don't tell me they were reflections, I know they were solid objects."
Lieutenant D. A Swimley, USAF in 1953 following the sighting of 8 UFOs that were confirmed on radar and witnessed numerous other people including commercial pilots and police officers.


"Something is going on in the skies that we do not understand. If all the airline pilots and Air Force pilots who have seen UFOs and sometimes chased them have been the victims of hallucinations, then an awful lot of pilots should be taken off and forbidden to fly."
Captain Kervendal, French Gendarmerie.


"The Air Force had put out a secret order for its pilots to capture UFOs. For the last six months we have been working with a congressional committee investigating official secrecy concerning proof that UFOs are real machines under intelligent..."
Major Donald Keyhoe,during a live TV broadcast on CBS in 1958 in which he was pulled from the air when he began to deviate from the prepared format of the programme.


"It appears to be a metallic object...tremendous in size, directly ahead and slightly above.I am trying to close for a better look."
Captain Thomas Mantell, USAF. These were his last words as he closed in on a UFO in 1948. Minutes later his plane was to crash and he was to lose his life.


"This was no ordinary UFO. Scores of people saw it. It was no illusion, no deception, no imagination."
Air Marshall Azim Daudpota, Zimbabwe speaking about a UFO sighting over the country in 1985.


"More than 10,000 sightings have been reported, the majority of which cannot be accounted for by any scientific explanation, eg that they are hallucinations, the effects of light refraction, meteors, wheels falling from aeroplanes, and the like. They have been tracked on radar screens and the observed speeds have been as great as 9,000 mph. I am convinced that these objects do exist and they are not manufactured by any nation on earth. I can therefore see no alternative to accepting the theory that they come from an extraterrestrial source."
Air Chief Marshall Lord Dowding, Commanding Officer of the RAF during WWII.


"I am convinced there was thought behind the thing's manoeuvres".
Lieutenant George Gorman, F51 pilot after being in a 30 minute dogfight with a small UFO in 1948.


"UFOs are real and they may come from outer space."
General Kanshi Ishikawa, Chief of Air Staff, 1967.


"Air Force interceptors still pursue UFOs as a matter of national security to this country and to determine technical aspects involved."
Major General Joe W. Kelly, 1957.


"Congressional investigations...are still being held on the problem of unidentified flying objects and the problem is one in which there is quite a bit of interest.
Since most of the material presented to the committee is classified, the hearings are never printed."
Congressman William H. Ayres, 1958.


"Saucers exist (I saw two). They were intelligently flown or operated (evasive tactics, formation flight, hovering). They were mechanisms, not United States weapons, nor Russian. I presume they are extraterrestrial."
Lt. Colonel Richard Headrick, radar bombing expert, 1959.


"My own present opinion, based on two years of careful study, is that UFOs are probably extraterrestrial devices engaged in something that might very tentatively be termed 'surveillance'.
Dr James McDonald before Congress, 1968.


"These UFOs are interplanetary devices systematically observing the Earth, either manned or under remote control, or both.Information on UFOs, including sighting reports, has been and is still being officially withheld."
Colonel Joseph J. Bryan III, founder member of the CIAs psychological warfare staff, advisor to NATO


"Before we could do anymore, the army, after conferring with (US) officials, ordered the investigation stopped."
Dr Paul Santorini regarding UFOs seen over Greece in 1946.


"Maximum security exists concerning the subject of UFOs."
CIA Director, Allen Dulles, 1955.


"I have discussed this matter with the effected agencies of the government, and they are of the opinion that is it not wise to publicize this matter at this time."
Senator Richard Russell, head of the Armed Services Committee, following his sighting of a UFO during an official trip to the Soviet Union in 1955.


"Reliable reports indicate there are objects coming into our atmosphere at very high speeds and controlled by thinking intelligences."
Navy Admiral Delmar Fahrney in a public statement during 1957.


"It is the considered opinion of some elements that the object may in fact represent an interplanetary craft of some kind."
Brig. General George Shulgen
From a Draft Intelligence Collections Memorandum by Brig. Geneneral George Shulgen, Oct. 28, 1947

Cheers.

Quotes contd:

"Every time I get skeptical, I think of the other reports made by experienced pilots and radar operators, scientists, and other people who know what they are looking at. These reports were thoroughly investigated and they are still unknowns.
We have no aircraft on this earth that can at will so handily outdistance our latest jets... The pilots, radar specialists, generals, industrialists, scientists, and the man on the street who have told me, I wouldn't have believed it either if I hadn't seen it myself, knew what they were talking about. Maybe the Earth is being visited by interplanetary space ships.
When four college professors, a geologist, a chemist, a physicist, and a petroleum engineer report seeing the same UFOs on fourteen different occasions, the event can be classified as, at least, unusual. Add the fact that hundreds of other people saw these UFOs and that they were photographed, and the story gets even better. Add a few more facts, that these UFOs were picked up on radar and that a few people got a close look at one of them, and the story begins to convince even the most ardent skeptic."
Captain Edward J. Ruppelt
Chief of Project Blue Book, from his book, The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, 1956.


"From their maneuvers and their terrific speed I am certain their flight performance was greater than any aircraft known today".
Colonel Carl Sanderson
USAF, commenting on his sighting of two circular silver UFOs in close proximity to his plane over Hermanas, New Mexico. The UFOs were said to make a series of seemingly impossible maneuvers before disappearing at an astonishing speed and showing up again over El Paso, Texas.


"We had a number of reports from reputable individuals (well-educated serious-minded folks, scientists and fliers) who surely saw something".
As Air Force Chief of Staff, in his 1965 autobiography, Mission With LeMay, stated that although the bulk of UFO reports could be explained as conventional or natural phenomena, some could not.
Many of the mysteries might be explained away as weather balloons, stars, reflected lights, all sorts of odds and ends. I don't mean to say that, in the unclosed and unexplained or unexplainable instances, those were actually flying objects. All I can say is that no natural phenomena could be found to account for them... Repeat again: There were some cases we could not explain. Never could.
General Curtis LeMay
Statement from 1965 autobiography Mission With LeMay, with MacKinlay Kantor, New York: Doubleday, 1965.


"Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitude and traveling at high speeds in the vicinity of major US defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles."
Dr .H Marshall Chadwell, former assistant director of the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence, in a December, 1952 memo to then-director of the CIA, General Walter B. Smith.


"Much evidence tells us UFOs have been tracked by radar; so, UFOs are real and they may come from outer space."
General Kanshi Ishikawa,Commander Chief of Air Staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force,1967.


"UFOs are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head. . . . I'm so concerned about what the consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just think I had to say something".
Paul Hellyer, Canada's Defence Minister from 1963-67, September 25, 2005.


"The evidence that there are objects which have been seen in our atmosphere, and even on terra firma, that cannot be accounted for either as man-made objects or as any physical force or effect known to our scientists seems to me to be overwhelming... A very large number of sightings have been vouched for by persons whose credentials seem to me unimpeachable. It is striking that so many have been trained observers, such as police officers and airline or military pilots. Their observations have in many instances... been supported either by technical means such as radar or, even more convincingly, by... interference with electrical apparatus of one sort or another..."
Admiral Lord Hill-Norton (GCB), Chief of Defense Staff, Ministry of Defense, Britain; Chairman, Military Committee of NATO; Admiral of the Fleet; Member of House of Lords.


"The phenomenon of UFOs does exist, and it must be treated seriously".
Mikhail Gorbachev,
Premiere of the Soviet Union.
Interview as reported in 'Soviet Youth',May 4th,1990.


"There are many reasons to beleive that they(UFOs)do exist:there is so much evidence from reliable witnessess".
Prince Philip,
Duke of Edinburgh,
London sunday Dispatch,March 28th,1954.


"For the government to continue to maintain that UFOs are non-existent in the face of the documents already released and of other cogent evidence presented in this book is puerile and ,in a sense, an insult to the American people".
Dr J Allen Hyneck,Phd,
Former scientist with Project Bluebook.


"We have stacks of reports about flying saucers.We take them seriously when you consider we have lost many men and planes trying to intercept them".
General Benjamin Chidlaw,
Air Defense Command.


"The number of thoughtful,intelligent,educated people in full possession of their faculties who have 'seen something' and described it grows every day.We can say catergoricaly that mysterious objects have indeed appeared and continue to appear in the sky that surrounds us".
General Lionel M Chassin,
French Air Forces,
Air Defense Coodinator of the allied forces of NATO.


"UFO sightings are now so common,the military doesn't have time to worry about them....When a UFO appears,they simply ignore it.Unconventional targets are ignored because apparently we are only interested in the Russian targets,possible enemy targets.Something that hovers in the air ,then shoots off at 5000 miles per hour doesn't interest us because it can't be the enemy.
UFOs are picked up by ground and air radar and they have been photographed by gun camera all along.There are so many UFOs in the sky that the airforce has had to employ special radar networks to screen them out".
Lee Katchen,
NASA atmospheric physicist,June 7th,1968.


"Of course it is possible that UFO's really do contain aliens as many people believe, and the Government is hushing it up."
Comment by Stephen Hawking (world renowned astrophysicist) on C Span Television-guest lecturer at the second Millennium Evening at the White House on March 6, 1998.


"We must insist upon full access to disks recovered. For instance, in the La case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination."
J Edgar Hoover-authenticated memo.


"In my official status, I cannot comment on ET contact. However, personally, I can assure you, we are not alone!
Charles J. Camarda (Ph.D.) NASA Astronaut


More than 10,000 sightings have been reported, the majority of which cannot be accounted for by any scientific explanation... I am convinced that these objects do exist and that they are not manufactured by any nation on Earth." "I can therefore see no alternative to accepting the theory that they come from some extraterrestrial source.
Air Chief Marshal Lord Dowding, Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Air Force Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain, printed in Sunday Dispatch, London, July 11, 1954.


"I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary. Another words we are being watched by beings from outer space."
Albert M. Chop, deputy public relations director, National Aeronautics and Space Administration,(NASA) and former United States Air Force spokesman for Project Blue Book.


"It is my thesis that flying saucers are real and that they are space ships from another solar system.There is no doubt in my mind that these objects are interplanetary craft of some sort. I and my colleagues are confident that they do not originate in our solar system."
Dr. Herman Oberth (The father of modern rockerty)


"I am completely convinced that UFOs have an out-of-world basis."
Dr. Walther Riedel (Once chief designer and research director at the German rocket center in Peenemunde)


"The possibility of reduced-time interstellar travel either by advanced extraterrestrial civilizations at present or ourselves in the future, is not fundamentally constrained by physical principles."
Dr. Harold Puthoff (Director, Institute for advanced studies at Austin, Author of fundamentals of Quantum Electronics)


The least improbable explanation is that these things are artificial and controlled ... My opinion for some time has been that they have an extraterrestrial origin."
Dr. Maurice Biot (leading aerodynamicists and mathematical physicist)


I feel that the Air Force has not been giving out all the available information on the Unidentified Flying Objects. You cannot disregard so many unimpeachable sources."
John W. McCormack, Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States. January (1965)


"I certainly believe in aliens in space, and that they are indeed visiting our planet. They may not look like us, but I have very strong feelings that they have advanced beyond our mental capabilities."
Senator Barry Goldwater (1965)
(Retired Air Force Brigadier General and pilot with many decades of flying experience)


"I strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation of the UFO phenomena. I think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding UFOs and to produce the greatest possible enlightenment on this subject"
President Gerald Ford (1966)

reply to post by karl 12


"Thanks for the reply -whilst theres no unequivocable proof out there in the public domain-there does exist credible government documentary evidence;radar/sonar confirmation evidence;electromagnetic interference/ground trace evidence;circumstantial evidence and photographic/video evidence."

Evidence of what, exactly? Little space buddies?

Unidentified lights in the sky are just that, unidentified. Assigning them to LSBs is an unjustified leap off the scale. Why do that? Wishful thinking?

Two last questions. Under what circumstances do you think we can accept induction as a valid means to reach a conclusion? To what extent do you consider yourself a Nietzschean nihilist?

Originally posted by Xtraeme
Two last questions. Under what circumstances do you think we can accept induction as a valid means to reach a conclusion? To what extent do you consider yourself a Nietzschean nihilist?

Let me guess, you have some special definition of "induction" The Francis Bacon and David Hume would not recognize. If you mean to apply to the UFO phenomenon, have a nice day, it doesn't apply to fantasies.

BTW, Nietzsche is dead.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by Xtraeme
Two last questions. Under what circumstances do you think we can accept induction as a valid means to reach a conclusion? To what extent do you consider yourself a Nietzschean nihilist?

Let me guess, you have some special definition of "induction" The Francis Bacon and David Hume would not recognize. If you mean to apply to the UFO phenomenon, have a nice day, it doesn't apply to fantasies.

BTW, Nietzsche is dead.

As a computer scientist usually when I think of induction I think of it in terms of PSMI. Which is frankly much more rigorous than any sort of philosophical tripe. The only means to "induce" any conclusions on UFOs would be to use statistical analysis.

Originally posted by Xtraeme
As a computer scientist usually when I think of induction I think of it in terms of PSMI. Which is frankly much more rigorous than any sort of philosophical tripe. The only means to "induce" any conclusions on UFOs would be to use statistical analysis.

Well, that let's Bacon right out, doesn't it.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Well, that let's Bacon right out, doesn't it.

I like you . Tip oh the hat to you Gawdzilla.

My only concern using induction is, like you said, GIGO. Think I'm going to have to be pretty picky about my cases.

Originally posted by Xtraeme

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Well, that let's Bacon right out, doesn't it.

I like you

. Tip oh the hat to you Gawdzilla.

My only concern using induction is, like you said, GIGO. Think I'm going to have to be pretty picky about my cases.

I spent a month straightening out a GIGO error one time, a major embarrassment for the "very senior" officer who had insisted I wasn't needed on the task.

Not to be annoying, but I really would like your take on the post at the top of this page.

Since we're looking for a deductive means to study this phenomenon and frequently military sources claim a low signal-to-noise ratio between spatial proximity of nuclear materials and UAP detections, then wouldn't it make sense to try to setup equipment around nuclear waste, reactors, and missile sites to test this hypothesis? If we can find a correlation between the two, much like the raccoon, perhaps we can try to figure out the interaction between nuclear materials and UAP observations by say shielding and unshielding it during an observation? Since the phenomenon has demonstrably affected physical reality (active radar, passive radar, cinetheodolites, magnetometers, infrared, etc) then perhaps we can contain it for additional testing?

I suppose the biggest difficulty would be acquiring nuclear material to conduct such a test. Though it's not uncommon for research institutions, like MIT, to conduct tests in otherwise highly sensitive government facilities.

Sound reasonable?

reply to post by Xtraeme


I would say we're very far way from conducting tests on the "phenomenon", we can't even get a consistent definition of what we would be testing for.

The "UFO Phenomenon" is like a large, uncataloged library. You can pull volumes out of the pile, but you can't go to a specific volume. Despite the anticipated claims to the contrary, this subject doesn't have enough information to consider organization at this time. You need more information, and better information if you're ever going to be credible.

it both annoys and infuriates me at how the term UFO has been misconstrued and taken so far from the fact its not funny as of late.
a UFO is just that, an UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT.

if i threw a plate in the air and you saw it and didnt know what it was, to you that makes it a UFO. just because someone says they saw a UFO they get ridiculed by ignorant, close minded people that laugh and say OH that guy thinks theres aliens flying around...lol

both the media and the general public need to wake up and actually think about what the term means before commenting on it, its just getting ridiculous.

Originally posted by redae71
it both annoys and infuriates me at how the term UFO has been misconstrued and taken so far from the fact its not funny as of late.
a UFO is just that, an UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT.

if i threw a plate in the air and you saw it and didnt know what it was, to you that makes it a UFO. just because someone says they saw a UFO they get ridiculed by ignorant, close minded people that laugh and say OH that guy thinks theres aliens flying around...lol

both the media and the general public need to wake up and actually think about what the term means before commenting on it, its just getting ridiculous.

I saw UFO frequently when I was younger. As part of my duties in the Navy I was a look-out. Stand around for hours scanning the sky and the horizon. When a dot appeared it would be Unidentified. Then as it resolved it was eventually identified. Most of the time. Some things were not identified, by me anyway. The Captain didn't have my complete comprehension very high in his to-do list.

one of the main things im tryin to stress to ppl is that like it or not UFO's are real (proof in the definition of the acronym) be it alien or terrestrial craft or natural phenomenon, we do not know which, but the so called ''phenomenon'' is completely and utterly 100% credible and provable down to 0% possibility of error because of the label given to it... U F O

reply to post by redae71


So when people make the leap from UFO to alien spaceship? And don't tell me they don't, it's the core of the UFO movement.

"Wink-wink, nudge-nudge, we'll call them UFOs but they're really aliens on vacation in the wilderness."