A question for the anti masons here.

I see and read a lot from the anti masonic crowd here that Freemasonry is anti Christian, that we worship a false god and that we are in essence, satanists.

So my question is:

How do you explain the clergy that are part of Freemasonry? In my lodge alone, there are at least 8 men of God that are active Freemasons. They come from Baptist, United, Presbyterian and Anglican churches. I am curious as to your thoughts on men that have given their life to God feeling that Freemasonry isn't all these things you claim.

Hi, I think to answer your question, at least the way I see it, is very simple.

Being a mason I'm sure you know that there are a total of 33 degrees in your order. Now as I have heard over my time of studying freemasonry (or the conspiracy within) that most regular members don't get much further than the third degree. Not saying that there arn't plenty of members that are, but my point is just that the majority don't get very high up.

Now also in my own research on the subject I have found out that what you gain as you proceed through the ranks is knowledge, secrets if you will, about the order itself. Now assuming the clergy you speak of arn't very high degree, I think that it is mere ignorance of the order that allows them to take part. Most of the masons I have spoke to proclaim that it is just a bunch of guys sitting around at a lodge meeting, drinking, socializing, basic rituals, whatever. Innocent stuff.

But say that we "anti-masonry" guys are right? Say you were an Illuminati guy running the show. Would you reveal such a very taboo secret such as satan worship to low level members in a order that is pretty easy to join. Or would you make a hierarchy, and reveal that secret to members who have proved themselves worthy by climbing the ranks to a very high degree.

Now say that you are a clergy member, and you have worked your way up through the ranks to such a high degree. You have many friends and who are people of power, and many connections. Say that secret was revealed to them after so long. They would already have so much invested by that time, that they wouldn't even care, and most likely go along with it. Keeping up the facade of a man of God while secretly being true to the order. That or they find out, try and denounce the order, get killed or labeled as an "anti- masonry" conspiratist.

Originally posted by x_Jon_x

Being a mason I'm sure you know that there are a total of 33 degrees in your order.

No, there are a total of 33 degrees in the Scottish Rite, which is only one branch of the Order. Other Rites have other numbers of degrees.

Now as I have heard over my time of studying freemasonry (or the conspiracy within) that most regular members don't get much further than the third degree. Not saying that there arn't plenty of members that are, but my point is just that the majority don't get very high up.

In Antient Craft Masonry, there are three degrees. The so-called "higher degrees" of the various Rites were invented and added later. Therefore, one does not get "higher up" just because he decides to join this or that Rite. The Third Degree is Master Mason, which technically completes the system of Ancient Masonry.

Now assuming the clergy you speak of arn't very high degree, I think that it is mere ignorance of the order that allows them to take part. Most of the masons I have spoke to proclaim that it is just a bunch of guys sitting around at a lodge meeting, drinking, socializing, basic rituals, whatever. Innocent stuff.

This is the same all through Masonry. In the USA, practically all active Masons go on to the higher degrees, including the clergy.

Or would you make a hierarchy, and reveal that secret to members who have proved themselves worthy by climbing the ranks to a very high degree.

The only thing is, that's not how one advances in degrees. In the United States, any Master Mason in good standing can apply for them.

Now say that you are a clergy member, and you have worked your way up through the ranks to such a high degree. You have many friends and who are people of power, and many connections. Say that secret was revealed to them after so long. They would already have so much invested by that time, that they wouldn't even care, and most likely go along with it. Keeping up the facade of a man of God while secretly being true to the order. That or they find out, try and denounce the order, get killed or labeled as an "anti- masonry" conspiratist.

But again, it doesn't take very long to get to the so-called "high degrees". There are even instances where Grand Lodges and Supreme Councils sponsor "go all the way in one day", where non-Masons show up in the morning, pay their fees, and leave that night with all the degrees.

I think freemasonary may have`started out with good intentions, but has become corupted somewhere down the line.

Also this infomation that has been passed down, most freemasons dont get to hear it all, you have to work it out for yourself, It goes way back in time to the start of civilised man, egypt.

It all could be linked to alot of questions like, how the universe is formed before big bang? are we engineered? who engineered us if we are indeed so? are we ruled by these so called engineers? are we following the same rules about civilised life?

the questions and answers are endless.

it could be its all part of our evolution and in the process of the new age, if this nwo is linked to freemasonary,

is the nwo a bad idea? on the face of it , world peace and the world as one could be a great thing, it could also mean we are all the same, like hitlers blue eyed, blonde hair people, all thinking the same, a move to enslave the civilised world?

who knows all I know is what I am researching and it could go either way, good or bad.

First things first; most of the freemasons I have conversed with here on ATS seem to be nice, even tempered (even when provoked by the lunatic fringe), and seem open to debate about the brotherhood. However, most of them refuse to accept that the upper eschelons of freemasonry may hide unknown horrors which the lower ranks don't know about. And this is my problem with the freemasons. They adore the whole secrecy thing yet refuse to accept that the upper ranks may be keeping secrets from them. . .

Whether or not the masons are hiding something sinister lets not forget the good work they do for charity, especially in America.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

I think it boils down even simpler than that... I'll go so far as to say that NO Mason here even believes there's such thing as a "high level Mason", because we understand the structure of Masonry from within and find the notion of such a premise inherently flawed.

The first response to the suggestion that "THEY" are somehow doing something beyond the knowledge of the general Masonic populous is to ask who THEY are. And to date nobody on this site has ever been able to answer that question.

I'm a 32° Scottish Rite Mason. There are more than a dozen 33° Scottish Rite Masons who are members of my Blue Lodge whom I interact with weekly. There are more than three dozen 33° Scottish Rite Masons that I see monthly at our Scottish Rite meetings. Are they the ones running the world? (If, in fact, Scottish Rite has ANYTHING to do with said conspiracy... they just happen to have the highest meaningless numbers of the active Masonic groups, and everyone knows the larger the number the scarier they must be, right?)

[edit on 4/6/2009 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by JoshNorton

I think it boils down even simpler than that... I'll go so far as to say that NO Mason here even believes there's such thing as a "high level Mason", because we understand the structure of Masonry from within and find the notion of such a premise inherently flawed.

But yet again, for a group who drape themselves in secrecy the refusal to accept that perhaps, just perhaps, you don't know it all and that there are some secrets that you don't know about, is strange to say the least.

The first response to the suggestion that "THEY" are somehow doing something beyond the knowledge of the general Masonic populous is to ask who THEY are. And to date nobody on this site has ever been able to answer that question.

Well thats the problem Isn't it. We don't know and neither do you. Once again, it's the refusal to accept that ordinary masons may not know all the secrets which I find most confusing.

There are more than three dozen 33° Scottish Rite Masons that I see monthly at our Scottish Rite meetings. Are they the ones running the world? (If, in fact, Scottish Rite has ANYTHING to do with said conspiracy... they just happen to have the highest meaningless numbers of the active Masonic groups, and everyone knows the larger the number the scarier they must be, right?)

If you're right and the numbers, and the secrets are meaningless then do us all a huge favour and tell us what they are. You can't say they are meaningless and then say but I can't tell you what they are. If you're trying to tell me that the 33 dgrees are meaningless and unimportant then I would have to ask what all the fuss is about? Put us all out of our misery and spill the beans before someone comes along and claims you're all satanic lizard people.. .

yes but to ask what are the freemasons and what do they believe in, you need to ask , what is the origins of freemasonary?

this could indeed be the origins of life and other more intelligent species
so who knows, the origins of freemasonary could answer all the questions in this universe. including, are they lizards? well the origins perhaps?

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But yet again, for a group who drape themselves in secrecy the refusal to accept that perhaps, just perhaps, you don't know it all and that there are some secrets that you don't know about, is strange to say the least.

But even then you're starting off with a false premise. Masons don't drape themselves in secrecy. It's all out there in some form or another for the world to see. Yeah, we've got a handshake and a password so we'll recognize each other. That's it. There are no secrets about the STRUCTURE of Freemasonry, and there never have been. Heck, it's on those paintings that people have posted here a dozen times thinking they're revealing some hidden gem. If there were something else, I would think that SOMEBODY would have found it out in the last 300+ years...

Well thats the problem Isn't it. We don't know and neither do you. Once again, it's the refusal to accept that ordinary masons may not know all the secrets which I find most confusing.

A wise man once told me... (well, Ok, he might not have been a wise man... truth be told, he was the park ranger on the tour at Alcatraz...) "There's not enough time in your lifetime to waste on 'What If?' questions." There's either proof or there isn't. If someone else wants to take the time to go look for it, by all means that's their prerogative. And if they find something and bring it back to share with the rest of us, I'll certainly give it its proper attention due. But taking the stance of "I have no clue and you don't either" doesn't really move your case forward or further your cause any.

If you're right and the numbers, and the secrets are meaningless then do us all a huge favour and tell us what they are. You can't say they are meaningless and then say but I can't tell you what they are. If you're trying to tell me that the 33 dgrees are meaningless and unimportant then I would have to ask what all the fuss is about? Put us all out of our misery and spill the beans before someone comes along and claims you're all satanic lizard people.. .

Knock yourself out:

• Duncan's Ritual
  
• Morals & Dogma
  
• A Bridge to Light
  
• Scottish Rite Ritual Monitor & Guide

Disclaimer: I'm not looking for a flame-fest, am in no way an 'Anti Mason,' have come to personally know a couple of Masons here and have nothing but respect for them, and the following is more of a question for the Masons here rather an accusation.

The following is something I've wanted to ask in this forum for a while but was worried it would be considered an attack on Masons or some sort of 'Masons are Satanic blood drinkers' accusation (which would never be my intent) so I refrained. But if anyone can explain this, I would appreciate it.

-----

I mentioned my grandfather in this forum earlier today in THIS POST. As stated there, he is very silent about his many years as a Mason and will not answer questions from us, his family.

Some relevant history: When he was a Mason, he was not a Christian. He later converted to Christianity and today is a strong man of God, a former pastor for over two decades, involved in creation science, etc., etc. Basically my Bible thumping personality on steroids. lol

What I'm asking: The reason he left Masonry is because he said something concerned him regarding his Christian beliefs and it conflicted with his faith. What would have possibly lead him to feel this way? Is it the fact Masons don't acknowledge any specific God but instead simply a general deity and he was too devout to make that compromise (I admit it would be hard for me too)? Or is it something more disturbing? He won't say so I honestly don't know.

-----

To answer the OP's question and assuming for argument's sake there is some dark secret about Masons, the fact there are some clergy members who are Masons really isn't any kind of defense against these types of conspiracies. Just because they are clergy does not mean they are necessarily virtuous.

There have been scandals (as well as criminal scandals) involving clergy in all sorts of arenas and of course 'wolves in sheep's clothing' are known to exist. So just because there may be pastors who are masons, really doesn't mean much in the sense of vouching for them.

Or another possible, less conspiratorial explanation is that their chapter or level doesn't have anything that conflicts with their beliefs. Just a thought.

Then assuming everything truly is on the up and up, Masons are A.O.K. and the conflict between Masonry and Christianity is just a baseless conspiracy.

(I have no opinion on any three above choices since I know so little about it).

[edit on 4/6/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


The general "conflict" if you will, is that freemasonry accepts people of any religion under a "Supreme Being" generalized while Christianity accepts Christians under the Christian God. One can see this as a conflict or not.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Thanks, Sky. That was one of the things I mentioned above. Wasn't sure if it was just the generic 'Grand Architect' issue that was off putting to him or if there was some sort of rituals they were involved in that made him uneasy after becoming a Christian, etc.

The thing that makes me suspicious it is not reason #1 is that he refuses to tell us about it but just about everyone knows Masons do not proclaim the Christian God as their organization's official God. So if that well known fact is the reason he left, I am not sure why he just won't say that's it. That is the main reason I always suspected something 'darker,' if you will, but it's pointless asking him since he won't say and I didn't want to start a flame fest by asking here. lol

Nothing major, I guess, but it has piqued my curiosity for some time and this thread seemed like the perfect one to bring it up.

[edit on 4/6/2009 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Is it the fact Masons don't acknowledge any specific God but instead simply a general deity and he was too devout to make that compromise (I admit it would be hard for me too)?

Without ever knwoing your Grandfather and his mindset I would have to concur with Skyfloating and posit this as my explanation for his having left the Fraternity.

To take this further some fundamentalist practitioners of organized religion are wrongly convinced that Masonry somehow suggests that they should somehow 'suppress' belief/faith in their own Diety (Allah, Christ, Yahweh, etc.) and replace that diety with The Great Architect of the Universe when they are, in fact, one and the same. This notion, when often repeated to others, may cause them to begin believing this as well.

Or is it something more disturbing?

I think questioning ones faith is in actuality a very disturbing thing.

To answer the OP's question and assuming for argument's sake there is some dark secret about Masons, the fact there are some clergy members who are Masons really isn't any kind of defense against these types of conspiracies. Just because they are clergy does not mean they are necessarily virtuous.

Agreed, clergymen are just as fallible as the rest of humanity and does not inocculate them from horrendous misdeeds.

Or another possible, less conspiratorial explanation is that their chapter or level doesn't have anything that conflicts with their beliefs. Just a thought.

An excellent point as some jurisdictions one must swear to defend the Christian faith on becoming a Knights Templar. This may be a difficult or impossible path to take for one who is not of this religious persuasion.

Then assuming everything truly is on the up and up, Masons are A.O.K. and the conflict between Masonry and Christianity is just a baseless conspiracy.

In my opinion it is A.O.K. and it is baseless.

(I have no opinion on any three above choices since I know so little about it).

I will trade you the answers for a neat Baphomet avatar.








[edit on 6-4-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by AshleyD


Yeah. It's not so much that Masons do not proclaim the Christian God as their organization's official God. Masons do not proclaim ANY specific God as their organization's official God. Who you pray to is your own business and not a matter of policy that concerns Masonry. This only becomes a problem with fundamentalist Christians who believe that all prayer to God MUST be channeled through Jesus by name. I would find it in poor taste to vocally pray in Christ's name if I knew that many of my friends assembled with me were Jewish or Muslim. By using a placeholder name, it allows me to pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and you to pray to Jesus, and someone else to pray to Allah or whatever, and we can all be equally devoted in our prayer without being exclusionary with our brothers. After all, who is to presume that one is right and the other wrong when neither can know for certain until they are both dead?

[edit on 4/6/2009 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Thank you very, very much for your answer, AM. that does help. Many thanks again to Sky, too.

And this helped me to spit my soda out all over the screen from laughing:

I will trade you the answers for a neat Baphomet avatar.

Originally posted by x_Jon_x
Being a mason I'm sure you know that there are a total of 33 degrees in your order.

Seriously, how many times must we go over this? The statement above is false. Always has been, always will be. Reasserting this claim incorrectly time and time again as fact will not make it any less false.

Now also in my own research on the subject

You didn't even know that your prior claim was false. How much research have you really done when you miss even the simplest and most public information?

Most of the masons I have spoke to proclaim that it is just a bunch of guys sitting around at a lodge meeting, drinking, socializing, basic rituals, whatever. Innocent stuff.

Because that's exactly what it is.

reply to post by Isthisthingon

As a mason whom has accomplished much study i will agree with most people that wonder what masons are hiding, that the information is veiled by allegory and illustrated by symbols, what is it? Well most, almost none, even have a clue as to what is being veiled or illustrated. that is part of the program; control mechanisms.
We are not a secret society but we do have some secrets. As far as the "higher ups" we would be talking about very very few people that are aware of the hidden mysteries of science and nature, and as i am not one of them, i cannot speak to their intentions. here down on the floor i can say for the most part it is good men trying to be better, just like the slogan says. and if intentions count for anything then i see/know some great men with the most laudable intentions of living by the basic principles, virtue, morality and brotherly love.
in a simple allegory, the great soldiers all the way up the ranks and the honourable deeds they perform with good intentions towards peace and the betterment of mankind can in no way be diminished by a corrupt or virtuous command. They are good soldiers and will be judged as such.
pax vobiscum

I'm not a mason but I know the secret to the science of nature, and the role of man.


Man was made in the image of God, and nothing exists until it is concieved, consciously and with intention.

Welcome to the one degree of initiation.

One last thing, to make the return path to God, we cannot, of our own will, engineer our own salvation. God must do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

There's always a catch, and a price which must be paid.

Originally posted by AshleyD

The thing that makes me suspicious it is not reason #1 is that he refuses to tell us about it...

I think I should add here that apart from the signs of recognition, it is very ambiguous as to what in Freemasonry needs to be kept 'secret,' since the ritual and oaths are not clear on this point.

Most Masons on this forum will agree that it is only the secrets that relate to recognition that need to be kept secret, but that everything else in Freemasonry may be freely discussed with non-masons.

However, many Masons (about half, in my estimate) believe that the secrecy oath relates to everything about Freemasonry, and will not discuss anything about Freemasonry with non-masons. For obvious reasons, those masons do not post on a forum such as this, so you are getting a warped perception that the Masons here will volunteer information, whereas your own family members won't. An obvious conclusion (and incorrect, but easily understandable taking into account what I have said above) is that a Family member would rather keep quiet to cover up a secret than lie about it, and that Masons on this forum are trying to feed you misinformation, because we're either ignorant ("higher levels" argument) or lying.

In reality, I think this problem that you have with your Grandfather is because his interpretation of the secrecy oath meant that talking about it to you would be in violation of his oath, rather than covering up any secret.

The oath says:
"...I will always hele, conceal, and never reveal any part or parts, point or points of the secrets or mysteries of or belonging to Free and Accepted Masons in Masonry..."
(UGLE emulation ritual)

Nowhere in Freemasonry is it explained what these secrets are. Also look carefully at the wording - the oath relates to the secrets of Masons in Masonry, not the secrets of Freemasonry. I will not reveal the signs/grips because I know they are held secret by some of my Brothers, (not by Freemasonry), and therefore, revealing them would be giving up a secret held by another Mason, and would be in violation of my vow.

Some Masons believe that if you don't know what your Brothers hold secret, talking about any part of Freemasonry may unknowingly reveal something held secret by another Brother.

Others, like myself, believe that if I adopt this attitude, I probably would not be ably to talk about anything at all, because somewhere, somehow, a Mason holds this as a personal secret, and I might unknowingly be disclosing it. Therefore, my interpretation is that I will not reveal a secret of another Mason which is known to me directly, and anything else, I'm free to talk about.

As you can see, the interpretation of the oath is left wide open, and I am sure that your Grandfather was silent on Freemasonry simply because of his interpretation of his oath.

Originally posted by AshleyD



The thing that makes me suspicious it is not reason #1 is that he refuses to tell us about it but just about everyone knows Masons do not proclaim the Christian God as their organization's official God. So if that well known fact is the reason he left, I am not sure why he just won't say that's it.

Actually, you've got me on that one as well. While it may be that he resigned because he didn't care for Freemasonry's universalistic character, it also may be because he had disagreements in his own personal Lodge, and doesn't want to talk about it for personal reasons. I would think that if he quit for religious reasons, he wouldn't mind talking about it.

That is the main reason I always suspected something 'darker,' if you will, but it's pointless asking him since he won't say and I didn't want to start a flame fest by asking here. lol

There have been men, especially those who self-describe as "fundamentalist Christians", who have resigned for religious reasons. It's not that Freemasonry teaches something "dark", just perhaps "different". Freemasonry makes no spiritual distinction between people based on religious belief, so one who believes that his way is the only way may not feel comfortable having his ideas challenged in Freemasonry.