"19 Arabs in a cave" is racist and ignorant of the facts.

"19 arabs in a cave" is racist and ignorant of the facts.

I see variations of this idea come out of the mouths of many 9/11 conspiracy
theorists and it's got to be one of the most ridiculous arguements I've heard.

Thankfully here on ATS, it's not so common, but I have seen it, and allusions
to it crop up here from time to time.

Not only is it racist to assume that Arabs can't have pulled this off, the cave
part is incorrect. The implication of "cave-dwellers" is that they lack the
skills necessary due to lack of education, and low social status.

But it just isn't true.

Ahmed bin Abdullah al-Nami attended the King Khaled University.
Ziad Jarrah attended the University of Greifswald.
Majed Mashaan Gh. Moqed attended King Fahd University.
Hani Saleh Hanjour attended the University of Arizona and Holy Names College.
Mohand al-Shehri attended Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University.
Fayez Banihammad may have attended the Defense Language Institute at Lackland
Air Force Base.
Marwan Yousef al-Shehhi attended a language institute and University.

Some of the hijackers did come from poorer backgrounds, and didn't have much
serious eduction, but others did. Some came from fairly wealthy business families.
There is no requirement for all of the men to be genuises. It only takes a few to
be of reasonable intelligence, and the rest can be 'muscle'.

'Cave-dwellers' don't typically have the financially and logistical support of
fairly large organizations such as Al-Qaeda, and perhaps the Taliban/ISI, or other
extremist groups.

It was also not a particularly high-tech attack anyway, hijacking planes with
box-cutters hardly requires a masters degree.

The "19 arabs in a cave" talking point/canard is about as weak as you can get.
Don't buy into it, Deny Ignorance, and if you really do believe there is more to
9/11, make sure you stick to gathering evidence and arguments that might actually
have a chance of convincing somebody with an IQ over 70.

I understand that for some 9/11 conspiracy theorists, my point can be seen as
a strawman, as they do ignore this nonsense. But sadly I still see this line
and variations of it appearing quite often from others, and it really needs to
stop if you ever want to be taken seriously.

reply to post by RubberBaron


Well it was a really nice cave according to top Bush Regime intelligence gurus and insiders.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f75b3101cd7f.jpg[/atsimg]

Actually there were no hijackers, there were no boxcutters, there were no passengers, and Usama bin Laden had nothing to do with it just like he stated. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammad was tortured into confessing to be the Mastermind of 9-11. Of course in his enthusiasm to stop the pain, he also confessed to every crime for the past 50 years or so, and his CIA torturers were quite disgusted with him.

As the whole world is rapidly learning; 9-11 was an inside job and the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY is self-destructing as all the lies are exposed. Stay tuned. Soon you will find that the real 9-11 perpetrators indeed never lived in caves nor were they people with poor technical skills. You will find they were a highly trained, highly experienced, highly organized military psyops team with extensive military demolition training, and with a very sophisticated covert undercover apparatus and mainstream media disinformation organization to hide them. But they were not hidden well enough, were they?



[edit on 4/6/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPreston


Actually there were no hijackers, there were no boxcutters, there were no passengers, and Usama bin Laden had nothing to do with it just like he stated.

And Khalid Sheikh Mohammad was tortured into confessing to be the Mastermind

of 9-11. Of course in his enthusiasm to stop the pain, he also confessed to every crime for the past 50 years or so, and his CIA torturers were quite disgusted with him.

Has his attorney come out and stated this? SPreston... what are you going to do to protect this poor tortured man? He is going on trial that will at the least, leave him in a cell for the rest of his life. Are you going to help him?

reply to post by CameronFox


Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and his fellow idiots were working pro se; without an attorney. Attorneys are not normally present in torture cells while the grinning CIA torturers are working over their victims, and the military jailers are photographing decadent sexual acts with their victims.

The alleged cave dwellers can all rot in hell for all I care, as long as we nab the true perpetrators behind the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY. Ahhh we are getting closer and closer every day and you government loyalists are getting more and more desperate every day.

Yes I know CF; you would prefer the 9-11 perps to get away with their murders and injustice.
But I am not a teeny bit like you.

Originally posted by CameronFox Has his attorney come out and stated this? SPreston... what are you going to do to protect this poor tortured man? He is going on trial that will at the least, leave him in a cell for the rest of his life. Are you going to help him?

Well, I'd humbly suggest that by trying to get the word out that this was a confession coerced from him by torture, SPreston is helping him. You know what they say:"Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness"

...and what are you doing to ensure that all the facts are out?

When did Arab become a race?
If anything they are probably closer to being Caucasiod than they are being Mongoloid or Negroid.
The cave reference is due to the fact that they reject all of today's technology and choose instead to wage war on the world by choosing to be destructive members of society.

SPreston nailed it... "arabs" in "caves" is just part of the shell game.

Funny thing is why make most of your boogie-men Saudi Arabian, if your intentions are to invade Afghanistan and Iraq... why not make the "hijackers" Afghan & Iraqi?

Maybe they are Saudi Arabian because it was the Saudi government that helped us fabricate the visas and passports? It's no secret that the Bushes are longtime family partners and friends of the Bin Ladens... and that Bush & Saudi Prince Abdullah are Lovers in Oil inc.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e9eaa8a34a43.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 6-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

The 911 hi-jackers lived in caves? Is student accomodation in Hamburg really that bad?

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by RubberBaron

 

Actually there were no hijackers, there were no boxcutters, there were no passengers, and Usama bin Laden had nothing to do with it just like he stated.

Wow, so are you on the remote control planes theory, or no planes at all, or what?

Sounds pretty far out, don't bogart that, dude.

Originally posted by Alxandro
When did Arab become a race?

Fair play, just substitute 'racist' for 'bigoted' or the like instead then. I'm not really up on my 'race science', I concede they aren't normally though of as a race.

That's cool, but if you want to bring up bigotry then it's safe to say the most radical of the fundamentalist Muslims are the most bigoted of them all with their unconditional Jihad against the infidel.

I for one think the "19 Arabs in a cave" title makes for the beginning of a good joke.

I too have always found the cave dweller argument to be totally ignorant.
The people who spout that act as if these people were raised in their hideouts. With that logic, we could call World War I soldiers "ditch dwellers." What can those guys in a ditch possibly do?

In retrospect this fallacy fantasy is part of a bigger propaganda picture, one that has been perpetuated by hollywood since it's inception.

Planet of the Arabs A trailer-esque montage spectacle of Hollywood's relentless vilification and dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims. Inspired by the book "Reel Bad Arabs" by Dr. Jack Shaheen. Out of 1000 films that have Arab & Muslim characters (from the year 1896 to 2000) 12 were postive depictions, 52 were even handed and the rest of the 900 and so were negative.

The "19 Arabs in a cave" meme was from your Government, not the Truth movement. It is sometimes presented as a joke, e.g. "You think 19 Arabs in a cave" were capable of pulling this off? As in response to the debunked Debunker's claim, e.g. "You think our inept Government was capable of pulling this off?".

But you know what? You are right. Some of them were very educated indeed.

Some of them even went to Government schools and had houses on the base -- just like all the other spooks.

But some people seem unable (or unwilling) to connect the huge mass of dots.
I guess it is all just coincidental.

You make good point but what about the radicals that commit terrorist acts on countries the world over.

How is the US Govt involved in those attacks?
Does the US Govt brainwash these individuals to hate all infidels?
Seems this would be a full time job.

Surely their upbringing has a lot to do with the hate they have for all.
Just look at the kid jihadis, and the mickey mouse wannabe that has serious temper issues.

If you really delve into the middle east experience you'll find a young little country runned by self-absorbed greedy arrogant racists. Ever since they have been in existence we have been seeing a flame of hatred steadily being feed and thus growing. Hollywood and the US Media have been framing this expression of anger in a grossly simplistic and shallow light. Rare, if ever are the roots of this anger revealed. There is a tremendous amount of injustice that has taken place and continues to take place in the middle east... thanks in large part to our direct and indirect deals... this is the reality that we should have stories written about. By neglecting to show the root cause of the problem and instead misdirecting the blame "they hate our freedom" ... "they are crazy" ... "it is their religion" ... only further perpetuates the conflict, fulfilling the twisted self-fulfilling prophecy. What we need is an bigger deeper more honest picture of all that is taking place, instead of this one-sided narrow-minded childish caricature of real people having real life experiences. Peace is only possible with understanding. As long as we have our reporters/story-tellers spinning reality, true understanding is not possible... therefore neither is peace.

I've heard the 19 hijackers commanded by a madman in a cave put down out of the mouths of numerous reputable 9/11 truthers. It's a way of caricaturing the Bush administration's vast oversimplification of the day's events.

As the OP points out, it's not part of the truther ammo store on ATS to any noticeable degree.

The only real denigration of the hijackers, as a group, that I have heard that matters, is that by all accounts they were poor pilots.

I actually agree with the original poster. While I believe that the government had a big hand in 9/11 and alot of involvement, I am niether ignorant enough nor naieve enough to think there are no such thing as well organized Islamic terrorism, and I do believe that Muslim terrorists did indeed to the job....with help from the government, unknown to them.

I agree it is stupid and racist to assume that Arabs and middle easterners in general are knuckle dragging backwards idiots. While many of their cultures and religous ideas belong in the stone age, major Arab countries like Saudi Arabia are wealthy, and often send their sons to western universities for education. Especially Saudi Arabia. And what do you know...Bin laden and 15 of the hijackers were Saudi nationals. Imagine that.

Bin laden himself comes from a very wealthy, prominent Saudi family. His brothers run several successful businesses. Their wealth and business connections are what tied them to the Bush clan, after all.

And let's not forget that our very own CIA trained these scumbags, even sold them alot of weapons and know-how. With that kind of knowledge and access to stuff, the question is not whether or not they had the capability and intent of pulling off 9/11. They did, no doubt.

The real question is why the whole thing pretty much went off with almost zero opposition, and why the attacks succeeded as thouroughly as they did.

Amongst other questions.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I actually agree with the original poster. While I believe that the government had a big hand in 9/11 and alot of involvement, . . .

Just curious. Would you like to see Bush administration officials and others as determined by law enforcement and the attorney general charged as accessories to murder? Are you in favor of reinvestigation of 9/11 with a view to laying such charges?

Originally posted by ipsedixit

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I actually agree with the original poster. While I believe that the government had a big hand in 9/11 and alot of involvement, . . .

Just curious. Would you like to see Bush administration officials and others as determined by law enforcement and the attorney general charged as accessories to murder? Are you in favor of reinvestigation of 9/11 with a view to laying such charges?

Absolutely.

At the very least, I would like to see 9/11 investigation reopened and done PROPERLY this time, all aspects and angles re-investigated thoroughly, this time. Not the B-Movie budget, the sickeningly small amount of money and people that was done the last time. ( Millions of Taxpayers dollars spent on Bill Clinton and his magic disappearing cigar trick, but something like 600k spent on 9/11 investigation?)

And of course, ALOT of investigation into the activities of the government and administration after the tragedy, including the Bush administration's blatant attempts to impede investigation, such as:

1. Several pages of documents blacked out in reference to the Saudi Arabian government in regards to the attacks

2. The swift disposal of the WTC rubble and wreckage. In other major air-crashes, plane parts are kept in hangars for YEARS as investigators study and experiment with what could have gone wrong. Without a doubt, 9/11 was the worst air disaster in US history, yet within months all the rubble and steel had been sent to landfills, or shipped off as scrap, only a couple of pieces given to investigators. This is a major case of impeding investigation/tampering with evidence.

3. Why the FBI was suddenly ordered to stop tailing several of the suspects a month before the attacks.

4. Perjury. While Bush officals claimed they had no warning of the attacks several times, there have been TONS of warnings given by various governments, including our own. yet they continued to lie about it.

5. Why several tapes 911 calls made by passengers on the doomed airliners were seized by the feds and never released.


Thats just a SMALL list for starters. Yes, the investigation should be re-opened, and this time, no tap dancing bipartisan 9/11 commision. This time, there should be both government AND independant investigation on a very LARGE scale.