Outcry over girl flogged by Taliban in Swat valley

A couple more reasons why I do not feel the 'it's the law' defense will work.

For one, these 'laws' are recent- the article makes it sound like within the last two years and these rules were not always the case for the region. If we put ourselves in their shoes, what would be the case if our government was bombarded by militants who started enacting rights-infringing laws like this? Let's say, women are no longer allowed to hold careers and the ankles of women should be slashed who continue to work. Should we bow down and take it because it's 'the law?' Of course not.

Second, the people themselves along with the courts are outraged at this. Why? Because it was clearly an abuse of power and law and was most definitely not the norm. The people are making a stink about this because they know the perpetrators did not have the authority to do this nor did they handle it with proper protocol.

So the argument that his woman should just be abused because 'it's the law' is ludicrous. And even if it was the law, it's still ludicrous. You don't do that to people. The people of the region are protesting because they know it was wrong.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

 

We need more people in the Muslim community speaking out against the oppression of women in the Muslim world. We also need more Muslim voices speaking up for the integration of the cultures, looking to find common ground.

No problem with Muslims speaking out against the Taliban. I am a Muslim but you want get me to speak out about anything just because of a non-Muslim's say so.

No Muslims, other than our version of Christian zionists and the KKK, tolerates any kind of brutality.

If is truly a human rights issue that concerns you and not just the Muslim religion then I would join your band wagon but this struggle for justice must also address the rape culture of the West.

O

If you knew the limitations than why did you complain? Sounds like all you have to offer is a personal attack. So, you think it is alright to have a woman flogged because someone claims she had inappropriate sex? Glad to see where you stand.

While I am not familiar with the laws where you live, I doubt if you would be flogged for running around the community naked, simply arrested, possibly sent for a psych eval. The thing is, when you run around naked you expose yourself to the public against their will. What you do in private among consenting adults is your business, and that is the way it should be.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
This will probably end up being overturned on a lack of evidence and thrown out like a good majority of these "blasphemy convictions".

Your failure to criticise the practise of a country's government actualy
killing its citizens because they do not just
mindlessly conform to specific religious cult/sect doctrine is revealing.

It infers you agree with it.

Blasphemy = Death penalty ,Pakistan.

The blasphemy law in Pakistan is found in several sections of the Pakistan Penal Code, including Section 295 B and C and 298 A, B, and C. It imposes a variety of penalties for different forms of blasphemy, including the death penalty for anyone found to have "by words or visible representation or by an imputation or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiled the name of the Muhammad of Islam".
Similarly anyone blamed as a blasphemer against the Koran would be awarded life imprisonment under section 295/C.

Among Muslim-majority countries, Pakistan has very strict anti-blasphemy law.
In 1982, President Zia ul-Haq introduced Section 295B to the Pakistan Penal Code punishing "defiling the Holy Qur'an" with life imprisonment. In 1986, Section 295C was introduced, mandating the death penalty for "use of derogatory remarks in respect of the Holy Prophet".

The Pakistani Catholic bishops' Justice and Peace Commission complained in July 2005 that since 1988, some 650 people had been falsely accused and arrested under the blasphemy law. Moreover, over the same period, some 20 people accused of the same offense had been killed

en.wikipedia.org...

20 people,200 people whats the difference?

The Romans had Patrician Law - The senior male of the household had absolute discretion of life and death over anyone in his household, wife, child or slave.

Victorian England - Had the Rule of Thumb, no man may beat his wife with a cane thicker than a man’s thumb.

Mr. Kern - My 4th, 5th and 6th Grade Teacher had the Rule of Little Joe and Big Joe, one small and one large wooden paddle, replete with carved notches in them for every time they had to be employed.

I had the fortune of meeting both Little Joe and Big Joe on one occasion for each. I won’t say it was good fortune, I won’t say it was misfortune…I will say I got a far better and more structured education in my day, than my children are getting in this day were corporal punishment is against the law both in schools and in homes.

Was it embarrassing and humiliating and painful to be stood in a corner in front of the class and to be beaten violently for my willful infractions of the rules? Yes, of course it was. Did I continue to violate those rules to the detriment of the learning process and the other students afterwards? No, I didn’t.

When there is no discipline in the homes and schools guess where it leads to no discipline in other places…

Government…try to get any representative of the U.S. Government to follow the rules these days.

Business…try to get corporate managers and owners in the U.S. to follow the rules these days.

It’s great to be liberal, and I would rather give someone a hug than a hit, but the reality is when there is a break down of discipline in society, society ultimately pays a terrible penalty for it when no one has any self discipline, because no discipline was ever instilled in them.

I will no doubt get flamed for saying this, but the reality is while every average citizen in America is running around indulging every liberal vice and self granted privilege their minds and perceptions find appealing at an almost fevered pitch, the Government Treasury is being robbed blind, their private savings are too, and the Constitution is being turned into a dish rag.

It might serve America better to better consider how more discipline can be put back into our society to it’s betterment, than how to effect less discipline in other societies to our detriment.

Originally posted by AshleyD
The woman was beaten because she was seen with a man who was not a relative or spouse.

Where di you get that information from please share it with us. Is it related to this News?

It may be a 'law' but it is still a rights violation in my opinion. Like flogging a rape victim. They were also going around beating women who were not dressed to their standards in shopping centers. And although I don't want the man to go through this, why was the man not punished as well? After all, it's 'the law.'

'Like flogging a rape victim', once again too much propaganda got into your head. Are you talking about that raped victim who goes with a stranger at the middle of the night, goes in to a room with him and then comes out claiming she been raped? Have you heard of date rapes? Where the western law can't do anything about it.

I am also under the impression that this was not necessarily 'the law' of the country but simply 'the law' of this rogue group, which is why there is outcry from the public and the courts- because it was not technically legal. 'Why didn't the man get punished', well I don't know, accordingly to the law the man is also suppose to get punished.

agreed, why didn't the man get punished. That should be the centre of attention.

She didn't even receive a trial. Yes, some 'law.'

How do you know?

And even if this happened by the books it still would be indefensible in my opinion. They are perverting their own texts to endorse violence against women.

Don't concern yourself with the text, it is more of a culture than Islam. Remember all the honour killings and stuff, it comes from South East Asia. It is just a culture and outside intervention can't change anything.

ummm they still don't let me go outside naked in New Zealand I wonder why. It is my body so why am I not allowed to do what ever I want with it? I want no cloths.

Apples and oranges. To make this comparable to the woman's story, you would have had to:

1). Not have been caught red handed walking around naked but simply have been accused by one person on suspicion of being naked.

2). You did not receive a trial but on this alleged witness' testimony alone, you were dragged into the square, held down, and beaten.

Comparable??? It isn't comparable, I was just discussing something with poet, if you want to jump in please read his response then my response. He said "You think you have the right to control other people's sex lives?
" and I said they are controlling my sex life so what is the difference.

[edit on 013030p://30b4 by Ownification]

Originally posted by AshleyD
A couple more reasons why I do not feel the 'it's the law' defense will work.

For one, these 'laws' are recent- the article makes it sound like within the last two years and these rules were not always the case for the region. If we put ourselves in their shoes, what would be the case if our government was bombarded by militants who started enacting rights-infringing laws like this? Let's say, women are no longer allowed to hold careers and the ankles of women should be slashed who continue to work. Should we bow down and take it because it's 'the law?' Of course not.

Second, the people themselves along with the courts are outraged at this. Why? Because it was clearly an abuse of power and law and was most definitely not the norm. The people are making a stink about this because they know the perpetrators did not have the authority to do this nor did they handle it with proper protocol.

So the argument that his woman should just be abused because 'it's the law' is ludicrous. And even if it was the law, it's still ludicrous. You don't do that to people. The people of the region are protesting because they know it was wrong.

Culture becomes law, once upon a time there was no laws and culture took rule, now that we have the concept of law in most societies culture still dominate. There is still fear of being punched in the face when you call an individual a bastard even though it is not against the law. Why don't we all go to a stranger tonight and swear at them. Get it? Culture becomes law and if it doesn't become law, it will become a rogue law(what ever that means).

I hope you get the point, if not come again.

Originally posted by poet1b

While I am not familiar with the laws where you live, I doubt if you would be flogged for running around the community naked, simply arrested, possibly sent for a psych eval. The thing is, when you run around naked you expose yourself to the public against their will. What you do in private among consenting adults is your business, and that is the way it should be.

I think you should have another stab at what I wrote.

The point is there are social problems and acts of injustice just about every where but it sounds very odd to see a Yank shed crocodile tears over a woman getting flogged by religious extremists in a Muslim country.

So which is it that concerns you; an injustice meted out against a woman, or the Muslim religion? If your problem is Islam, then why stop there in your commentary and give us a considered and referenced discourse.

You do realise that only last week in the UK a black cab driver got sentenced for raping over 200 women and a paedophile rape gang got busted within the last few days? This problem is probably worse in the US yet you focus in on the one of the most war ridden and unstabilised areas of the world and extrapolate your understanding of a world religion that leads you to make your comments.



[edit on 033030p://pm3006 by masonwatcher]

reply to post by karl 12

Your failure to criticise the practise of a country's government actualy killing its citizens because they do not just mindlessly conform to specific religious cult/sect doctrine is revealing. It infers you agree with it. Blasphemy = Death penalty ,Pakistan.

Yet amazingly the US manages to execute more of its citizens (in proportion) than Pakistan does.

Makes you wan to scratch your head and go hmmm!

Originally posted by masonwatcher

Yet amazingly the US manages to execute more of its citizens (in proportion) than Pakistan does.

When did the US Government last execute one of its own citizens
for not 'mindlessly conforming' to religious cult/sect opinion?

If you're actualy being sincere (and not just engaging in your usual bait and switch tactics) then please tell me if you wholeheartedly agree with
the death penalty for 'blasphemers'.

A simple yes or no will do.

reply to post by Ownification


To answer your question, I found the article in the OP to be a bit vague on the details and did some Google searches to find more about the case- that is where my facts came from. The sources I found came from the same website as the article in the OP.

That is how I found out what she was accused of and that she was punished without trial.

Originally posted by Ownification
Culture becomes law, once upon a time there was no laws and culture took rule, now that we have the concept of law in most societies culture still dominate... Culture becomes law and if it doesn't become law, it will become a rogue law(what ever that means).

Yes, and according to the article, the citizens are rebelling against this culture which, in my opinion, is a good thing. It might be 'culture' to beat your women but that does not mean it is humane. Just like it might have been 'culture' to hang a black man for consorting with a white woman but that does not make it right. All citizens should have the right to express displeasure at official laws or cultural norms and these people are taking advantage of that. More power to them.

[edit on 4/5/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD

I am also under the impression that this was not necessarily 'the law' of the country but simply 'the law' of this rogue group, which is why there is outcry from the public and the courts- because it was not technically legal.

You're quite right.

People are attempting to pass this incident off as being in accordance with some "formal law" set by the government of Pakistan.

You need to distinguish between Pakistan the country, and it's autonomous, tribal provinces like the Swat Valley.

Pakistan exercises almost no jurisdiction over these areas, that is left up to the tribal warlords and chieftains to determine who sets out the customs to obey and who enforces them.

This so-called law is not set in concrete.

It's the social and religious customs of the hardline Taliban elements that have set up shop in the Swat Valley and forcefully imposed their beliefs onto everyone else.

Don't think for a second this punishment was handed down because this girl broke a law that was drafted and processed through a judicial system.

She was punished because some tribal fundamentalist caught her doing something the Taliban deemed "inappropriate" (which by their very broad standards can interpret a lot of lawful Muslim activities as "illegal") and then reported this to a higher-ranking Taliban official who then arrested the girl without charge and punished her in this fashion.

It's not like a Policemen took her into custody and filed formal charges here people. Please make that distinction.

[edit on 5/4/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by karl 12


What you describe as 'bait and switch' is actually your difficulty in perceiving how your argument plays out to another person's view. You see, the flogging of the woman by a group of people that have no authority over her in what can effectively be described as a war zone, has no bearing on anything but brutality born out of anarchy yet you cite this as an expression of Islam.

In that context, what do you make of the recent slaying of cops by a crazed gunman in the US. What does that say of you and American culture? Are you to be held to account for this?

As for you demand for a yes or no answer; no comment.

When did the US Government last execute one of its own citizens for not 'mindlessly conforming' to religious cult/sect opinion?

From my understanding, a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities relative to white convicts end up on death row for similar crimes. So rather than the application of injustice in unstable/war zones that happen to be in a Muslim areas, the US has the application of racism.

While most Americans I have met are decent and fair minded, I have met many who thought they were but really weren't. Let me explain; on more than a few occasions, when I was at university in the US, there would be racial incidents reported on the news such as the Rodney King LA riots. Although I am black and proud of it, I am clearly not American in speech, manner or look yet my white classmates would quip, "As a black man, how do you feel about the treatment of black people by the police?", or "How can black people justify rioting and looting....?" You get the gist.

This is the mindless aspect in the type of racism found in the US. You see, I am not American and I see black and white Americans as one nation that should have regard for each other yet many white Americans see their own as an other analogous to me, a guest in your country.

Not all racism in the US is a rampaging and violent expression but is a deep seated and unconscious attitude that lends itself to the mindless execution of a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities. Unfortunately, unlike the Swat region of Pakistan and the war in Afghanistan, you do not have the excuse of anarchy and lawlessness.

[edit on 063030p://pm3047 by masonwatcher]

reply to post by poet1b


These a&*holes are real men eh?

reply to post by poet1b


In the name of ALLA not God

Originally posted by tellmethen
reply to post by poet1b

 

In the name of ALLA not God

Actually the name God in Arabic is Allah. Christian Arabs say Allah just like people of other nations say God in their languages. Don't you think a Christian Mongolian, who doesn't speak English, saying the name God in American English a bit odd? But you do know that and what you are trying to do is disassociate from other human beings. You deny them.

[edit on 063030p://pm3038 by masonwatcher]

reply to post by tellmethen

In the name of ALLA not God

Thanks for the laugh.

Christians, Jews & Muslims worship the same god, since they all consider Abraham (or Ibrahim) their patriarchal father, and the creator of Abraham to be God.

Allah, God or Elohim refers to the same God of all 3 Abrahamic religions.

reply to post by masonwatcher


You need to read my original post that started this thread. You are not only off base with this post, it sounds like total nonsense. Are you really claiming that the U.S. public or the UK public approves of rape?

The people of Pakistan are outraged by what these backwoods religious nuts have done in punishing this woman, and that is a good thing. Listening to the usual cast attack this discussion makes me think many of you people approve of the religious extremism expressed through this punishment.