Libertarian Values

This is a thread on Libertarian Values and how Libertarians see through the false dichotomy of "left wing" vs. "right-wing" and the plethora of disinformation distributed by these two wings of the same bird.

I found out I'm a "Libertarian-Centrist" a few years ago, when all the "political spectrum" tests turned out results such as this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cf5325b3f223.png[/atsimg]

Test your own position at The Political Compass and post the results here if you want.

One of the favorite pastimes of a Libertarian is to poke fun at and make fun of how predictable, stereotypical and hysterically narrow-minded liberals/democrats as well as republicans/conservatives are. For this purpose I will enjoy bashing them and posting jokes and comics about them throughout this thread - humor as an educational tool.

We see leftists as people pro-social-freedom and anti-economic freedom.
We see rightists as anti-social-freedom and pro-economic freedom.
Libertarians are both pro-social-freedom and pro-economic freedom.

It does not take too much brains to figure out that both sides of the political stick seek to limit our freedoms. From the Libertarian perspective both left-wing and right-wing are Authoritarian systems.

In my opinion left vs. right is a false dichotomy set-up to deflect and distract the masses from common sense so that they psychologically reside at either of the two bottom sides of the Pyramid but never at the top, so that they are forever on thesis or antithesis but never experience synthesis.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/00f05697e28c.jpg[/atsimg]

How incredibly narrow and misinformed people can be started dawning on me when, in political discussion, some people would quickly determine "You're a typical liberal!" while others would quickly determine "You're a typical conservative!" I could even find posts on this website in which I've been branded one of the two.

When you allow yourself to see from a perspective beyond the dichotomy you begin to realize that anything Bush did and everything Obama is doing is actually nothing new but entirely predictable.

What we love about Democrats getting voted into office:

* Less international tension, more diplomacy, more tolerance, more psychology in diplomacy, less war, more social freedoms, more open-mindedness, less racism.

What we hate about Democrats getting voted into office:

* Force-Fed political correctness, more bland "sameness", more poverty, bloated government, more cry-babies, less economic freedoms, more pseudo-intellectual charade.

What we love about Conservatives getting voted into office:

* More self-responsibility, more focus on inner values, more straight-talk, more opportunity for individual prosperity, more strength, smaller government, less "tyranny-of-the-majority", more vision.

What we hate about Conservatives getting voted into office:

* More war, more religious bigotry, more machismo, more rigidity.

These patterns can easily be observed in governments around the world.


______________________________________________

A Basic Lesson for Leftists


Giving people Fish for free does not work. Instead of handing out fish for free, teach them how to fish themselves

No matter what fancy terminology, statistics, socialist-rhetoric, spin, numbers or pleas for pity you use, it does not work, never has and never will. It goes against common sense and nature itself. Thats why even things such as "Lets tax the rich and give it to the poor" are stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Thats why all left-leaning countries achieve nothing more than widespread poverty sooner or later. History is proof of this.

A Basic Lesson for Rightists

Action creates Reaction. Attacking someone will always result in a counter-attack sooner or later. Seen long-term a military "solution" never is a solution. It will only perpetuate more of what the military campaign tried to get rid of in the first place

No matter what fancy terminology, statistics, patriotic-rhetoric, spin, numbers or pleas for "security" you use, it does not work, never has and never will. It goes against common sense and nature itself. "Lets go to war in order to create peace" is contradictory and ineffective nonsense. History is proof of this.

_______________________________________________

You are responsible for your own Life

The main difference between an Authoritarian/Totalitarian (yes, thats you if you are either a card-carrying Democrat or Republican) and a Libertarian is the exaggerated amount of importance assigned to the Government. The Libertarian is not waiting for the Government to "make things better" or "lead the way" but takes emotional and psychological responsibility for his or her own life.

_______________________________________________

A Libertarian is not an Anarchist

Critics argue that we are Anarchists and that the world will spiral into chaos if we have our say. The distinction between an Anarchist and a Libertarian is that we vote for "Smaller Government" while the Anarchist votes for "No Government". In our current times the goal of "No Government" is unrealistic and not achievable in my opinion (and therefore a waste of time to pursue).

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/77b7980b344c.jpg[/atsimg]

To be continued...

[edit on 1-4-2009 by Skyfloating]

I have taken this test before but my entire paradigm has changed since my last effort with this test. I can see that I am more to the center as far as left and right go and still deep in the Libertarian area. I love these sorts of tests it is always interesting to see where we stand.

The Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.59

Some typical Libertarian one-liners and bumper-stickers

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/77601391751a.jpg[/atsimg]

What did Soviet Socialists use before they had candles? Answer: electricity.

Q: What do politicians & reporters do after they die? A: They lie still.

What's the difference between Anarchists and Libertarians?? Libertarians are anarchists with money.

A Libertarian is a conservative who has learned psychology or a liberal who has learned economics

How many Libertarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None, the free market will take care of it.

Anarchists believe property is theft. Libertarians believe everything is property.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8394b1e732d7.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9eb547cc41d3.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e13eea668c42.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fd71b68de467.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 1-4-2009 by Skyfloating]

The false-dichotomy of equality vs. inequality

Position 1: We are all the same

Position 2: We are all different and those who are different are less worthy

Position 3: We are all different and thats good.

Position one, under the guise of "politcal correctness" tries to force everyone and everything to "be the same"...which makes for a bland and dull world. Position two sees that we are not equal but tends to become all xenophobic about it and invalidates people who are different.

Position 1 denies diversity, position 2 invalidates diversity, position 3 appreciates diversity. Beyond the false-dichotomy of equality vs. inequality lies the recognition that diversity, uniqueness and individuality is a good thing. We are not equal. At all. But this does not mean that those who are different or in a minority are "bad".

You will find the same type of false-dichotomies on subjects such as "the war on drugs", "abortion" and any other left-right delusion.





[edit on 1-4-2009 by Skyfloating]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/24a32b9ab0c6.png[/atsimg]

Some Typical Libertarian stances:

* Abortion: Neither "Pro-Choice" nor "Pro-Life" which are both manipulative wordings in and of themselves. Instead appropriate action depends on a case-to-case basis.

* Drugs: The "War-on-Drugs" (as opposed to Education) perpetuates the problem. It has not solved anything.

* Non-Intervention: Most Libertarians do not believe in intervening in others countries business but know that other nations are sovereign and responsible for their own rise or fall.

* Taxing the rich more than the poor has nothing to do with the "equality" liberals supposedly stand for. Many Libertarians favor flat-tax or the same percentage-for-all or for reducing taxes to an absolute minimum.

* Immigration: Most Libertarians are, again, neither "pro" nor "con". It depends on a case-to-case basis. Trying to find "one-solution-fits-all" is typical for politicians who are too lazy to practice discernment.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/00ce3412318f.jpg[/atsimg]


[edit on 1-4-2009 by Skyfloating]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0c0ee22ea083.gif[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/85e73bb96af4.gif[/atsimg]

Obviously, as a liberal democrat, Libertarianism is something that at one point appealed to me however I have chosen a different course. Know this, probably to any liberal dem. Libertarianism makes so much more sense to us than "Republicanism".

I was actually chuffed to find myself right next to the H.H the Dali Lama as well as Nelson Mandela (not like I am anywhere near them in terms of spirituality or greatness) but that kind of made my day.

I'll stick where I am I think!

reply to post by awake_awoke


Thanks for your comments. Just one thing: Libertarians combine the best of both liberals and conservatives. As for "spiritual greatness":

Left: Peace & Poverty

Right: War & Prosperity

Libertarian: Peace & Prosperity.

Originally posted by SkyFloating

Giving people Fish for free does not work. Instead of handing out fish for free, teach them how to fish themselves

Again, though I may be a lone liberal dem. on this Libertarian thread I can personally attest to the fact that I'm sure its not just me who wholeheartedly agrees with that statement. Being extremely politically active in Family/Mothers rights lobbyist groups I can tell you that my political ideology and worldview calls for education reform and inner city initiatives, as well as expanded maternity/paternity/FMLA to break the cycle of poverty that causes the actual need to "throw money" in the regards of welfare at these problems we face. Unfortunately, these initiatives cost $$$$ which many Libs and most 'Pubs do not like....but unfortunately the free market cannot fix these problems guys....
At least without casualties but I think everyone deserves a chance, no?

Im with you on Education reform. More than that even, my ideal society puts Education first...above all else. And even more than that, individualized Education or a system in which everyone can pursue a path that at least vaguely his or her natural abilities.

I could rant for hours about the shortcomings of our entire education-system but I'll spare you the details.

I really like these types of tests. I think people often don't fully grasp what they think they believe. Sometimes they are just parroting their parents and friends.

Economic Left/Right: -1.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41

Libertarian Left, if I read the chart accurately. Not surprised at all.

Thanks OP.

Originally posted by Sergeant Stiletto
Sometimes they are just parroting their parents and friends.

I dare say that anyone who quits parroting the spoon-fed cliche naturally becomes a Libertarian...

Why this thread concerns ATS-Visitors

Many anti-establishment and conspiracy-theorist types that frequent this website have come to believe that all politics is stupid and that its constructive to hate politics (which it is not). Many of come to see through the false-dichotomy of "its either this side or the other side".

Libertarianism offers those people an opportunity to participate in politics and constructive thought.

Libertarian movements are amazingly weak with only about 2% of the population caring. As more people understand what it is and what it stands for and does not stand for, that may change.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/df19a15d53f0.gif[/atsimg]

Originally posted by awake_awoke
I think everyone deserves a chance, no?

If this is another way of saying "everyone deserves fish for free" then no. If you want to give them anything for free it should be a course in fishing.

Imo.

So I am coming out at:

Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e9aa22c820ab.png[/atsimg]

My dot right next to the Dalai Lama's.... I'm gonna go get some coffee, and ponder that

I will say that since spending time on ATS that my political views have shifted becoming... I guess one would say more cynical. I really don't think a two party system exists except as a facade that encourages the division of the voting public.

I think thats about where I would have placed you. Female Libertarians are often more in the greenish square while its common for male Libertarians to be purple-ish. Something I find rather interesting.

reply to post by Skyfloating


You would have placed me on par with the Dalai Lama? Hmmm... I don't know how I feel about that, I am kind of ambivalent about him.

I will now drink my coffee and then try to make more substantive contributions to this thread.

The Dalai Lama is indeed a Libertarian (and not a liberal as most people think).

What we love about Conservatives getting voted into office:

* More self-responsibility, more focus on inner values, more straight-talk, more opportunity for individual prosperity, more strength, smaller government, less "tyranny-of-the-majority", more vision.

What we hate about Conservatives getting voted into office:

* More war, more religious bigotry, more machismo, more rigidity.

These patterns can easily be observed in governments around the world.

I am going to take issue with a few things you posted earlier as 'self-evident' and/or being an obvious given. I do not think that one of the benefits of conservatives being voted into office was demonstrated by the last conservative administration in the US. Not one. Do you?

This is where I struggle to understand the ideology of Libertarianism as a political movement, as it appears to me to be a perpetually moving target with very disparate groups attaching the moniker to themselves -- and I think any number of Threads here will attest to that. The one consistent baseline I do see is that 'conservative at its best' governing is more representative of the core Libertarian ideologies than 'Liberal at its best'.

So, if the conservative governing prinicapls are no longer applicable to the conservative movement -- Barry Goldwater would have been well left of Clinton/Gore/Kerry/Obama -- and there appears to be no cohesiveness to the Libertarian Party as a political movement, esp. if the pro aspects of conservatism are taken out of the equation, what are we doing here?

There is a tendency for the defintion of Libertarianism to get whittled down to bumper-stickers, as exampled, that at best speak to a personal independnce motto, but without a platform on which a third-party could be built.

Do you, SF or anyone else, see the definition as strictly a personal label and have no expectations for it politcally? If not, what is the plan? And how could so many people with such varied POV's of 'right and wrong' be persuaded to get into one tent?

TWISI