Islamic Law's Influence in America a Growing Concern

Originally posted by Majorion
I rather doubt that as well. But define Islamic teaching...

There is huge and highly significant difference, between reading the Quran and/or "Islamic teaching".

The problem lies with the clerics, whom heavily incorporate the fabricated and inaccurate texts known as 'Hadith' or 'Sunna' into the context and interpretation of the Quran.

These fabrications have been devised by those who wish to rule and govern in a specific fashion. Namely in the Middle East.

Those in the Middle East are suffering and being oppressed because of this Sharia Laws manipulation.

The Hadith and Sunna has twisted the religion into something evil.

that is the crux of my point- it is all down to "interpretation", there cannot be a "true" Muslim, it is down to interpretation, unfortunately for some this can be interpreted to justify violence

reply to post by blueorder



I don't know if you meant that as a joke but that made me laugh so much.

We don't want to give them ideas for yet another new tax.
J/k.



[edit on 30-3-2009 by Flighty]

Originally posted by Flighty
reply to post by blueorder

 

I don't know if you meant that as a joke but that made me laugh so much.

We don't want to give them ideas for yet another tax new tax.
J/k.

a joke with a bit of truth behind it

Originally posted by blueorder
that is the crux of my point- it is all down to "interpretation", there cannot be a "true" Muslim, it is down to interpretation, unfortunately for some this can be interpreted to justify violence

Similarly, and this is my contention here...

Ironically, these same interpretations, are widely accepted as whole-sale by those opposed to Islam and the Quran.

Let's not talk about whether someone will interpret something to ignite his/her own violence.

Let's talk about what is false here...

People are opposed to the bigoted and evil Sharia Law.

Yet they use it to condemn the prophet of Islam, when it is knowingly false? and use it as a source of information and defining Islam?

My only contention.

Originally posted by blueorder
The evils of political correctness, multi culturualism and mass immigration unfortunately apply to America as well

I've never doubted it. Although some American comments on threads about Muslims in Britain, you'd perhaps think differently.

Whilst I don't think Islam is quite the demon it's painted out to be, I do think there are often significant clashes where it 'meets' the Western world. That Western World includes America. I'm probably more sympathetic to what Americans are going to be experiencing in the future - and already are - than many Americans have been about the British situation. Which often seems a bit derisory and based on this peculiar idea that 'it'll never happen here'.

As far as I know the US gun laws do not permit you to murder Muslims- what it does do though, is give you and advantage should the situation, deteriorate, as it surely will

But as I've pointed out, half the gun threads here suggest differently.

They are in a better position, Id rather attack someone with a gun than a ratchet

Which gun would that be though? The ones they're worried will taken away from them, or the ones where they can't buy any ammunition for?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
I've never doubted it. Although some American comments on threads about Muslims in Britain, you'd perhaps think differently.

I doubt many AMericans think they are immune to it, more a case of they are not as bad as we are (yet!)

Whilst I don't think Islam is quite the demon it's painted out to be, I do think there are often significant clashes where it 'meets' the Western world. That Western World includes America. I'm probably more sympathetic to what Americans are going to be experiencing in the future - and already are - than many Americans have been about the British situation. Which often seems a bit derisory and based on this peculiar idea that 'it'll never happen here'.

never is certainly a long time but Britain and the EU do seem quite bizzarely "suicidal" shall I put it about immigration and multi culturalism

Which gun would that be though? The ones they're worried will taken away from them, or the ones where they can't buy any ammunition for?

A gun that has ammunition

[edit on 30-3-2009 by blueorder]

In the southern part of the US, I'm not too worried about sharia law ever taking effect. Ever.

Muslims, as long as they are a minority in a country, seem to behave themselves, and to hear them tell it, they are all "peaceful" and "moderates" who "reject violence."

Right up until they are a majority.

And for the ignorant, I wouldn't concern myself so much about the Qur'an. It's the writings of Tabari, Bukhari, Ishaq, and so on that defines the words and actions of Muhammed.

Those are the books that the more radical Muslims follow as the Qur'an says, "In Muhammed, you have a good example."

And that's absolutely true if you're a pedophile, murderer, thief, enjoy incest, pirate, male-superiority retard, liar.

A fine example. "Sharia! Coming to a neighborhood near you - Soon!"

Not here.

www.americancongressfortruth.com...

If you really really want to know what Sharia law is about. Read Gabriels books. Because they hate, is a good book. She gives specific verses in the Qua'ran. It is not her opinion based on nothing, it is based on fact. If Sharia law becomes law in the USA, we will all be slaves to the Muslim population.

Hello dooper,

Originally posted by dooper
And for the ignorant, I wouldn't concern myself so much about the Qur'an. It's the writings of Tabari, Bukhari, Ishaq, and so on that defines the words and actions of Muhammed.

Exactly.

Not the Quran.

But Hadith.

Which is a highly inaccurate, and mostly fabricated texts.

Why do you ironically apply these evil and fabricated texts to what Muhammed was really like?

Bottom line, you don't know what Muhammed was really like.

You never met him.

Are you seriously relying on supposed 1500 year old "hear-say" for any accurate historical information?

reply to post by Majorion

Hi Maj,

The problem for Muslims is that the Qur'an has no context, no chronological flow.

The only way for Muslims to understand the purpose, meaning, and context of the Qur'an is through the Hadith.

And since the Qur'an is supposedly Allah speaking, the only way to follow the example of Muhammed, as is taught in the Qur'an is to turn to the Hadith, which was compiled from the companions of Muhammed.

And for anyone, including a Muslim to suggest that we don't know the nature, words, and behavior of Muhammed through the writings found within the Hadith, is to ignore the very people who were with Muhammed, reported his words and his deeds, is to deny these men.

The reason Muslims don't like non-Muslims knowing about these writings, much less reading these writings, is that these writings show Muhammed for what he was, and shows why "fanatical" Muslims do what they do.

They emulate their Prophet.

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


No, that's not how we ended up here. We weren't following the Constitution. We are a Constitutional Republic after all. That means our founding fathers held our best interests at heart when drafting that document at the very start. Anything that doesn't follow the Constitution is wrong because everything they wrote was right. The Bush administration violated individual liberties and private property rights. They manipulated the law to their advantage. The extension of liberal democracy in a Republic is only useful up to a certain point, such as giving all minority groups the right to vote (the liability here is that they will vote on things that go against the Constitution, so if that happens we kindly tell them to leave). Shar'ia law is unconstitutional. End of story. Liberal democracy need not apply.

[edit on 30-3-2009 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by dooper
The only way for Muslims to understand the purpose, meaning, and context of the Qur'an is through the Hadith.

This is not true.

I have read the Quran in it's original language and and context, without incorporating Hadith, Sunna and other fabricated bigotry and evil.

What I have discovered, is that the Quran is a far more different book if separated from the Hadith and such fabrications.

And for anyone, including a Muslim to suggest that we don't know the nature, words, and behavior of Muhammed through the writings found within the Hadith, is to ignore the very people who were with Muhammed

No, it is not ignoring the people who were with Muhammed.

It is ignoring the obvious hear-say.

If we were to play a game of 'phone-booth', where I whisper something to you, then you whisper something to someone near you, and about 5 people in a circle engage in this game. The original quote would be much different at the end of the game.

Imagine 1500 years dooper!

reply to post by Majorion


Maj, I would consider you a bit above the average in any manner, or any facet one would like to select.

You're right. The Qur'an alone is different.

When Muhammed died, he didn't have the Qur'an. Only after a couple hundred years did anyone start to think about getting anything in writing. Muhammed was illiterate, as were most Arabs.

In fact, the Qur'an is a Persian creation, created in Baghdad.

An interesting read is how portions of the Qur'an and the Hadith were gathered and put into writing.

You may not believe the Hadith, but most fundamental Muslims nont only believe it, but they use the Hadith to emulate their Prophet. Those radical Islamic teachers that hang out in Saudi Arabia? They absolutely rely on the Hadith. It's the only way to compel these young me to their acts of violence.

why cant you just say no?
his is how americans do it
and this is how you will do it too?
always bending over backwards for the muslims.

The fact of the matter is, we have Christian laws, and enough Christians would flip their # if someone tried to put in a Muslim-sounding law that even worrying about this is freaking retarded.

Muslims aren't taking over America, people! We already have religious overlords!

reply to post by dooper


Why thank you dooper for the kind words, and I understand the reasoning behind your beliefs.

And I think that you're mostly right with your statements.

But it is only the extremist nature person whom would become a terrorist later on.

I don't believe that even Hadith itself can turn a peaceful human being, into a man looking for martyrdom.

Some people are just born with that blood-lust.

An interesting read is how portions of the Qur'an and the Hadith were gathered and put into writing.

No, I don't believe that.

I don't which book you may be referring to that gave you this belief.

But I assure you that Quran and Hadith are two completely different things. Different texts.

This is what I have mainly deduced from my reading.

There are also beautiful things to read about in the Quran. Amazing things. Scientific things.

I have read stories about creatures who can travel in space (Jinn).

I have read a verse or two which actually talk about the folding of space/time fabric. Thus providing the force necessary to travel faster than light-speed.

How can an illiterate person have known about such things? Even a rather knowledgeable person back then, couldn't have known about these things without some sort of paranormal or divine revelation.

Anyways, believe what you wish dooper, perhaps one day you will change your mind about this issue.

Regards,

reply to post by Majorion


Thank you Maj, I wish you well.

Originally posted by Majorion
I have a slow connection, so my apologies for not being able to watch the doc.

But I just wanna say this..

The key here: "information provided by islamic scholars"

For the record, I have already condemned so called 'clerics', preachers, translators, and alleged 'scholars' of Islam in this thread.

Uh, I don't think it really matters what you have personally condemned. While that is admirable for yourself, you surely aren't daft enough to believe that your opinion speaks for every other Muslim? Actions speak louder than words, and extremist Islam/Muslims are all about the action. Turn on some news. Read a paper. Watch some YT videos of "normal, everyday Muslims" praising Palestinian Jihadis and singing nasheeds praising "allah" their god, for the death of jews or other hated groups of fellow humans. As a citizen of America, I take this very seriously and I don't think it's wise to underestimate anyone or any group. Especially when their brand of extremism has the short end of the stick in your favor.

That said, I do understand we Americans in some regions of the US are living under extremist rules of Christian sects. For example...heathens like me living in a 'dry' county and craving a beer on Sunday afternoon after some hard yardwork? Tough crap. Jeezus said beer is bad. Drink kool aid. But there are ways around these impositions and inconveniences. How would there be a way around a young man being forced to leave a swimming pool because it's time for the Islamic ladies to swim? Suppose the nearest other pool is 50 miles away and he doesn't have a car? Tough crap? No, that's just not fair. Muslims need to assimilate to our climate, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Majorion

Ironically, these same interpretations, are widely accepted as whole-sale by those opposed to Islam and the Quran.

Let's not talk about whether someone will interpret something to ignite his/her own violence.

Let's talk about what is false here...

People are opposed to the bigoted and evil Sharia Law.

Yet they use it to condemn the prophet of Islam, when it is knowingly false? and use it as a source of information and defining Islam?

My only contention.

Perhaps your contention bears no relevance to the discussion. What past and recent history has shown us is that extremist Islamics can take over an entire region (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan) over time and make their ideaology the standard and have little tolerance for any other beliefs, even ones within their own religion. If someone feels religiously justified to carry out religious sanctioned commands of violence towards "unbelievers", how much more leeway and freedom are they given when the law of the land actually begins considering their influence above the law of the land. The only people who should be above the law, in some respects regarding cultural allocations are the Native Americans. Islam is an import here, not the standard. How can freedom of religion be rightully exercised when a certain religion are trying to strong arm the system in the face of others?

Originally posted by Majorion

Till now, you haven't provided evidence for any of the above claims.

Sorry, but I don't take anyone's word. More so when you are hell bend to try to dismiss the truth, and you just give your own word, and no reliable evidence at all. I have done more than enough resarch into this, and this is the truth.

I lived for almost 10 years in Spain, went to school there, and studied in great detail not only the Muslim invasion of Spain, and parts of Europe, but the life and deeds of Mohammed/Muhammed.

Apart from the Q'uran itself, the Hadith, and other Muslim texts which do show that Mohammed raided caravans, and did take spoils of war, which included slave women. There is also the fact that there are Jewish texts, and even Muslims scholars, and regular Muslims who have been able to leave Islam, without getting killed, and have spoken out the truth about the history of the prophet Mohammed, and Islam.

The following is an example of the truth you are trying to dismiss.

When the Meccans returned home, defeated at
every point, Mohammet did not rest until he had
destroyed the Jews of Kuraizah, who had joined
them. Sa'd ben Mu'ahd was sent to punish them.
The men were decapitated, their goods seized, and
the women and children enslaved.

www.archive.org...

The only one who has provided no proof at all to his claims is you, and sorry to say that your word compared to the dozens, and dozens of books from both Muslims, and non-muslims, plus the words in the Q'uran, and other Muslim texts, all tell the truth that Mohammed was a raider, he participated in raids, killed men, took women and children as slaves, and decapitated the surviving males, unless they converted to Islam.




[edit on 31-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]