Advocates for illegal immigrants suggest a trade-off for legalization

Advocates for illegal immigrants suggest a trade-off for legalization

Link To Artical

WASHINGTON — With their prospects in Congress sinking along with the economy, liberal advocates of giving undocumented immigrants a path to citizenship are launching a risky strategy to push lawmakers and the White House to take up their cause.

They propose that Congress legalize millions of undocumented workers now in exchange for reducing the number of temporary foreign workers allowed to enter the U.S. in the future. It is a calculation that could win a new and powerful ally—organized labor—but risks alienating businesses that rely on temporary workers as well as key Republicans such as Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

With unemployment on the rise, the Immigration debate has moved to the back burner as lawmakers fear enacting a law that could be seen as benefiting immigrants at the expense of struggling American workers.

These pro illegal alian people/groups are talking like they have a gun to the governments back. "A trade off to legalize millions of illegal aliens in exchange to reduce the number of temporary foreign workers in this country."

I have an even better idea... Let's deport anyone and everyone who is here illegally, let's decrease the number of foreign work visas that the government gives out every year and then let's secure our borders so we don't have to continue to fight an influx of illegal immigrants. Now I think that THAT is a solution MOST Americans would get beind.

Originally posted by kozmo
I have an even better idea... Let's deport anyone and everyone who is here illegally, let's decrease the number of foreign work visas that the government gives out every year and then let's secure our borders so we don't have to continue to fight an influx of illegal immigrants.

Now I think that THAT is a solution MOST Americans would get beind.

That's the answer to everything ... just kick all the immigrants out! especially those bad illegals!!

I suggest you and other like minded people actually took the 5 minutes to give it some thought instead of blaming the illegals, they have been here for WAY LONGER than the problems.

And the problems with the economy and job loss STARTED when companies started shipping the jobs overseas to the tune of Source 3 Million jobs since 2000 and the number isn't slowing either, and yet the blame game is full on!! just as with the bankers and politicians stealing the money while the whole time they feed you a load of crap to blame someone else instead of the real culprits.

Ship off 3 Million jobs not counting how they affect the supporting jobs of people who supplied goods and services to those loosing their jobs and the number grows even larger for lost jobs.

Time to retire the old argument I think.



[edit on 29-3-2009 by svpwizard]

Originally posted by scoopkill
[

They propose that Congress legalize millions of undocumented workers now in exchange for reducing the number of temporary foreign workers allowed to enter the U.S. in the future.

Hell with that. Reagan gave us similar crap 25 years ago when he gave citizenship to 4 million illegals but promised future measures that would stem the illegal tide. Of course the future proposals never showed up.

We need to remove all social benefits for illegals such as school and free emergency room care and welfare and hopefully most will self-deport. And of course do away with birthright citizenship.

So they want to reward the ones who broke the law and punish the ones who follow the law and do the proper paperwork.

My feelings about Illigal immigration aside. I have a question for the ones on the Pro side.

There are millions of Americans out of work, our economy is suffering badly and billions that we don't have are going to help those who are here illegally.

With all of this going on why should we not close the border and ship out all the people who are here illegally?

Originally posted by svpwizard
That's the answer to everything ... just kick all the immigrants out! especially those bad illegals!!

I suggest you and other like minded people actually took the 5 minutes to give it some thought instead of blaming the illegals, they have been here for WAY LONGER than the problems.

Or perhaps we could all realize that they entered the country illegally and thus are criminals not helpless victims of the evil legal citizens. Do we not put people in jail/prison for breaking laws? Do we not fine them depending on the crime? Or do we just say "It's ok. It's not your fault you committed a crime. Our laws are just too tough. Here have some free health care and a job, don't worry about paying taxes, and never mind being a law-abiding citizen since we know it's too hard to fill out a piece of paper to become one and much easier to sneak over the border."

Illegal immigrants receive the blame due to the fact that their first act in our country is to break the law by entering illegally. They are criminals no matter how you want to look at it and frankly we have enough criminals without letting more in and then rewarding them by giving them citizenship for breaking the law.

reply to post by kozmo


and how do you suppose we do that? Ask every brown person to prove that they're in this country legally? Do you have any idea how many people will be pissed off if that ever happens, and not just liberals, but the conservative hispanic community? The truth is yeah, you can deport five hundred thousand a year, but it doesn't make a dent when the influx is quite the same. It's funny how in 2005 the estimated number of illegals was roughly seven million and when the immigration debate started up in 2007, the number magically jumped to twelve million and now it's an estimated twenty-one million, i mean how the heck did that happen? I doubt, nay, i know that the border isn't that porous enough to allow such numbers.
And do you also know the amount of money it would take to mobilize such a force to deal with the massive deportations? so you tell me, we're boned when it comes to money, we're in debt to our chest, and you propose a solution that could theoretically cost a trillion dollars? good luck.

and yeah, i'm hispanic *but i'm white*, and i'm also a 2nd generation American, but i know the hypocrisy that seeps into the immigration debate. I live in a wealthy part of southern california where it's predominantly conservative, where our congressmen get behind people like Tom Tancredo and vote against an immigration reform, their constituents are too lazy to clean their own houses, do their own home renovations, and do their own yard work that they hire mexicans to do it. And you're not going to bs me to think that they're all legal, mainly because i have many friends who do hire them to do everything they don't do, and yet they run their mouth off, claiming them to be a leech on the taxpayers and calling for their deportation. If that isn't hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Also, if illegals are taking blue-collar jobs, how is it that whenever i call anything that has to do with tech help for any of the major computer companies some person with a heavy Indian accent named "Tim" or "Robert" answers the phone? How about you also take a look at where your computer was made, surely it says "Made in the USA," doesn't it? Oh right, because we've exported millions of jobs and we then blame it on the evil illegals!!! As if we're willing to clean bathrooms, floors, pick strawberries from dawn to dusk, working in fields with carcinogenic pesticides, or do yard work in the blistering heat...all for less than the legal minimum wage. pshh, as if.

[edit on 3/31/2009 by Daedalus24]

[edit on 3/31/2009 by Daedalus24]

Originally posted by Daedalus24
Also, if illegals are taking blue-collar jobs, how is it that whenever i call anything that has to do with tech help for any of the major computer companies some person with a heavy Indian accent named "Tim" or "Robert" answers the phone?

It's called outsourcing. Companies do that to save money.

As if we're willing to clean bathrooms, floors, pick strawberries from dawn to dusk, working in fields with carcinogenic pesticides, or do yard work in the blistering heat...all for less than the legal minimum wage. pshh, as if.

See here's the problem. People who are actual citizens of the US are willing to do all those things, the problem is that they require a decent wage for it and a safe working environment. Illegal immigrants on the other hand take what they can get and can't exactly complain about it since they are here illegally. Do you really think that someone who is in the country illegally is going to call a federal agency to complain about working conditions or being paid less than minimum wage? They might as well just go turn themselves in at the closest police station.

If companies actually paid people a decent wage for doing the things you have listed, people would be lined up around the block to apply. Especially with the way the economy is. Perhaps you missed the article earlier this month about 700 applicants for a single school janitor job? Americans are more than willing to do the dirty jobs. Americans are more than willing to do the hard jobs. I personally know people who do all of the jobs you mentioned above with the exception of strawberry picking, they pick vegetables instead. And of the five examples you have provided I have done three of them myself.

The problem is why would a company hire a legal citizen for 8 or 9 dollars an hour or more and have to spend money keeping the working conditions safe, when they can spend 4 or 5 dollars an hour paying an illegal and not have to worry quite so much about working conditions? Companies are trying to make money. Every dollar they save by hiring an illegal for less money lines their pockets a bit more. There's no incentive for them to hire the more expensive legal citizen, so many don't when given the option.



edit: fixed quote tags

[edit on 31-3-2009 by Jenna]

Originally posted by Daedalus24

and how do you suppose we do that? Ask every brown person to prove that they're in this country legally? Do you have any idea how many people will be pissed off if that ever happens, and not just liberals, but the conservative hispanic community?

We can make a lot of illegals self-deport if we stop giving them benefits. How many illegal families would stay here if their kids could NOT use our schools?

And no more birthright citizenship. If the mother is here illegally then the kid should NOT be a citizen.

Again, the lack of empathy. Why should we punish the children for the mistakes of their parents? Why should we deny their children their birthright? Is it because there's a general notion that we're being invaded?

Because historically, that's been the sentiment against all immigrants, whether they be the early Mexicans after we won their land in the southwest, the Chinese, the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Greek...you name it, it's been the same argument over and over and over again.

Anyone could have come over, regardless of qualifications, career or family origins. Immigration was fair back then. Then came the quotas that started in the late 1800's and ended recently. Not only did they limit the numbers of immigrants entering the country, but limited mostly to doctors, teachers, nurses, scientists, etc. What about the starving masses who's wages in their home country border on the unlivable. What other option do they have but to say "I can't have my family go through this, i need to get to the U.S. one way or another." What would you do? Wait in line for a temporary workers visa that you might or might not get that takes 10+ years to process? Are you honestly going to tell me you'll stand by while your kids are telling you they're hungry and you're living in a shack? Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

There is no difference between any of the immigration waves, just the numbers...they've always assimilated and kept part of their original culture, do we not have family owned Italian restaurants, do we not have Oktoberfests in our towns? Do we not celebrate Saint Patrick's day? Have you ever been to Chinatown? How about little Russia, or little Tokyo, or how about little Italy? Like i've said, they've all assimilated, regardless of what language they spoke during the first generation. You can't argue with the historical facts, the first hand accounts on both sides of the issues. I really don't see why people are making a big deal about it, like I've always said, history repeats itself, always.

reply to post by Daedalus24


It's not a lack of empathy. Unfortunately life is hard sometimes, it's not all rainbows and lollipops. I have absolutely no problem with people immigrating to the US legally. What I have a problem with is people sneaking in through the back door and thinking it's ok. If someone snuck in the back door of your house would you let them just move in and give them free education, healthcare, a job, and say that they had every right to be there and be treated the same as you? Or would you call the police and throw them out the door they came in?

There are thousands upon thousands of children in the US who are starving. There are thousands upon thousands of parents in the US who don't know if they are going to be able to find a job before their kids starve to death. There are thousands upon thousands of people who are having to choose right now between paying their bills and buying food. What about them? Why should we be more concerned with how someone in another country is than the people who are here legally? It breaks my heart that there are children in other countries who are starving. It really does. But that doesn't mean that their parents becoming criminals from the moment they step foot in the US is ok. It's not an excuse.

You ask if we would stand by while our children are starving and living in a shack. I can honestly tell you I wouldn't sneak into another country and work for less than a living wage in horrid conditions just because I couldn't be bothered to enter the country legally. There are millions of people around the world in that exact situation who don't resort to being a criminal. They find another way to feed their families. They grow a garden, they hunt, they take whatever job they can find to get the money to feed their families. They don't just sneak into another country and think it's ok.

we know it's too hard to fill out a piece of paper to become one

Fill out a piece of paper? I tried for almost five years and thousands of dollars to "get legal". The path to citizenship in the USA is long, complex and out of the reach of many. I know, I was on the path for almost five years after being in the the country illegally for 20 years.

At the time I was devastated to have to leave the country I'd grown up in, my home, but I ran out of money and patience.

Most of the anti immigrant speech in ATS is really more about the brown immigrants. No one ever suspected me, and in fact to this day I pass for American wherever I go ( to my chargain at times.) I was solidly middle class, working, paying taxes, going to school -living the "American" dream. All that on a ratty SS card someone accidently issued me back in the early 80s no questions asked ( My parents were after all white, drove a Ford, and looked American enough for a SS card )

Anyway, my point being that this ""I'm not against immigration if it's done the right way" is really just class prefrence, the ones who can do it the "right way" are generally the more wealthy. So bring us your tried and poor and...NOT. Only come if you can afford a lawyer and have lots of cash to spare.

I remember the day I got on the plane to leave America very well, I was crying and upset and wishing I could stay, all my friends, my history my education my careeer, I had to leave it all behind. At the time it seemed like the worst day of my life. Today, in hindsight, I'm just damn glad I didn't spend more money to try and work the system.

Originally posted by Make Speed Limit 45

Originally posted by Daedalus24

and how do you suppose we do that? Ask every brown person to prove that they're in this country legally? Do you have any idea how many people will be pissed off if that ever happens, and not just liberals, but the conservative hispanic community?

We can make a lot of illegals self-deport if we stop giving them benefits. How many illegal families would stay here if their kids could NOT use our schools?

And no more birthright citizenship. If the mother is here illegally then the kid should NOT be a citizen.

then that would mean that europeans arent leagal either..

i wonder how many of you "anti-immigrants" downloaded illegal stuff in the internet... (you know like movies, etC)

because you know, you are criminals also, and should be prosecuted.

Originally posted by Merigold
Fill out a piece of paper? I tried for almost five years and thousands of dollars to "get legal". The path to citizenship in the USA is long, complex and out of the reach of many. I know, I was on the path for almost five years after being in the the country illegally for 20 years.

Then perhaps they should revamp the immigration process and speed it up. It shouldn't take five years, in fact I believe it's supposed to be much quicker than that as it is though it's been awhile since I've looked at immigration law. I'm sorry you had such a rough time gaining citizenship.

However, it's not class preference to want people to enter the country the right way. I'm not exactly upper class myself, and honestly I don't even consider myself middle class either, so why on earth would I be showing preference for a group I'm not a part of? There's nothing wrong with wanting the laws of our country upheld and followed whether it's by politicians, immigrants, the upper class, the lower class, or whatever other group you want to name.

Originally posted by Next_Heap_With
i wonder how many of you "anti-immigrants" downloaded illegal stuff in the internet... (you know like movies, etC)

because you know, you are criminals also, and should be prosecuted.

Since I seem to be the only one still responding that isn't apologetic about my stance on illegal immigration, I assume this was directed at me. And the answer is, I don't download things illegally off the internet. Actually, I rarely even download things that I can legally. Just not a downloads kind of person I guess.

And again, I'm not against immigration thus I'm not "anti-immigrant". I am against illegal immigration thus I am anti-committing-a-felony if you really want to put a label on me.

Originally posted by Merigold

Anyway, my point being that this ""I'm not against immigration if it's done the right way" is really just class prefrence, the ones who can do it the "right way" are generally the more wealthy. So bring us your tried and poor and...NOT. Only come if you can afford a lawyer and have lots of cash to spare.

What's wrong with that? This is our country and we can set any rules we want for entrance. Why should we welcome poor uneducated people that will likely go on welfare, if not this generation then the next?

Originally posted by Daedalus24
Again, the lack of empathy. Why should we punish the children for the mistakes of their parents?

We do that all the time with american citizens. We have two million americans in our prisons and most have children that suffer for the mistakes of their parents and everybody is cool with that. !!!

Originally posted by Make Speed Limit 45

What's wrong with that? This is our country and we can set any rules we want for entrance. Why should we welcome poor uneducated people that will likely go on welfare, if not this generation then the next?

Yeah, you're right. There are enough (tons) of American legal citizens like the ones you described, as it is...why import more?
But you are right, each country can establish the rules that it wants, and anyone who wants to visit or live in said country, should abide by them.

It's easier to seek legal residency, you don't necessarily have to be a citizen. Plus, traveling with an American passport nowadays is not really smart (yet)

[edit on 4/2/2009 by haika]

reply to post by Make Speed Limit 45


Like the millions of illegals getting welfare right now? Oh wait, they can't, but the lot of anti-illegals claim they do...now isn't that a little gaff they tend to overlook. Here's a little experience i had with the "desirable" non-poor immigrants you so favor. I knew a family that had come here back in 1992 from France. The parents are wealthy and have been all their lives. The children however, where spoiled. I also forgot to mention that none of them are American citizens but legal residents. I asked one of the kids, an 20 year old male, what he thought about illegal immigrants and he replied that they should all be deported seeing as they don't contribute anything to society. I then asked him if he was a citizen. He replied "no." I then asked him "why not?" and he says, "because i don't want to get drafted in case of a war. I don't want to die for this damn country." That really shocked me to the core. The amount of hypocrisy, he dislikes of a group of people who "don't contribute anything", but he doesn't have a job, he was pissed off when the college he went to didn't want to give him aid *because he never applied for selective service* because he didn't even like the country that had been his home for most of his life, well at least not when it came to the notion of dying for it. So you tell me, do you really want those kinds of people?

And i'll give you another example. A very close friend of mine is an illegal. You want to know what he did when he turned 18? He went up to a Navy recruiter and asked him if he could join the navy, that's right The US freaking Navy. And he's an illegal. Great kid, amazing grades and he can't even enlist into military service. I asked him why he would do that, and he said to me, "I love this country, even if i'm just a statistic, but this is my home." What do you have to say to that? Can you imagine the talent we're simply wasting because of simple apathy? Just because someone's of humble origins, poor or peasant, it doesn't mean they can't amount to something.