Dogma Conspiracy: God hates sin, not sinners

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

This doesn't say they are tormented forever.

lol...
It says "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever".
And "they have no rest day or night".
Sounds like eternal torture for me.

Hey, I'm not a Bible scholar, I'm just saying, you were wrong when you said:
"Study the Bible, it doesn't say anything of the sort."
Because it does say things that imply eternal torment.

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

Again this doesn't say he will be tormented forever.

It says he is being tormented.
It doesn't say forever, but it does seem like an extended period of time by the way he's talking. He wouldn't say "Lest they come to this place of torment" unless it was an extended period of time or eternal...

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Death is the everlasting punishment.

I've heard that before, but it doesn't really jive with me.
To each his/her own.

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

The fire is everlasting, it doesn't say the punishment is.

, no, it just says that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever...

Originally posted by Ichabod
What are the sources of sin?

I can think of three: man, Satan, world.

According to most Christians, Satan.

Originally posted by Ichabod
Man can't just blame it on Satan. After all, consider when Eve sinned. Wasn't it when she placed herself in authority over God, to exercise her own will in an area she did not have dominion over? Tempted by Satan, yes, but that doesn't get man off the hook. Break down the decision processes at play here.

Further, man has his chance, read Is 55:7-9. You want to whine about eternal separation from God as punishment for iniquity but what is the counter proposal? Everyone gets in? A few 'good works' folks get in?

"Everyone gets in" or "everyone gets out" is irrelevant.
An all knowing all powerful God would have created everything as it is.
So one person going to Hell is God's will. One person going to Heaven is God's will. One child starving is God's will.
You can't set up the dominoes, know where they will fall, then knock over the first domino, and not be responsible for the rest.

Judgment, tests, trials, tribulations, worship, along with 99% of the Bible becomes pointless once you understand that such a being would be responsible for everything.

A sinner being a sinner should not be punished for being a sinner because he was made to be a sinner.
And any God that would judge people on how HE made them, is nonsensical at best.

A source for everything must also be the source of evil - there's no avoiding it. And if that is the case, then there is no justification in judging what is rather than what one would hope to be, especially one who created the first to begin with.

Originally posted by Ichabod
Too shallow - think deeper TP.

I already have .

Originally posted by TruthParadox

A source for everything must also be the source of evil - there's no avoiding it. And if that is the case, then there is no justification in judging what is rather than what one would hope to be, especially one who created the first to begin with.

Most Christians? Where's the backup for that? Or do you mean the two that you interact with on a regular basis?

You do realize you're wrapping yourself around an axle, correct? If there is a higher purpose for allowing evil, then that is one justification. You say there are none, I just gave you one so you lose. Just because you don't share God's objectives or preferences relative to achieving them doesn't mean that there is "no justification." It just means that you're out of step with God, lost, leaning on your own understanding.

It also appears that you don't know the difference between being born a sinner (a state of being) and engaging in sin (a thoughtful action). Or are you one of those philosophers bent on inventing autonomic decision making? Or are you agreeing with me about unintentional sins?

At any rate, you're not following the program. If you want to add to the discussion, why don't you look into the basis of the conspiracy that I'm proposing. Obviously, someone or something or some group of people has muddied the water of sound doctrine because 9 out of 10 Christians will tell you that God doesn't hate anyone and I've got quite a few references right here that says he does.

Originally posted by Ichabod
Most Christians? Where's the backup for that? Or do you mean the two that you interact with on a regular basis?

No, most Christians I've seen (and I've seen a lot of em').
Where have you been?
Surely you know it's a common Christian belief that ALL evil comes from Satan.
In fact, it's not just common, it's accepted by most.

Originally posted by Ichabod
You do realize you're wrapping yourself around an axle, correct? If there is a higher purpose for allowing evil, then that is one justification. You say there are none, I just gave you one so you lose.

I don't think you understood the point I was making...
If you're all knowing and all powerful, then YOU are responsible for everything.
Look at the example I gave of the dominoes.
It's not the action that makes God responsible, it's the knowing AND the action.
This makes him responsible for everything.
How then can you say that he is justified in judging anything except the maker of such things (himself).

Originally posted by Ichabod
Just because you don't share God's objectives or preferences relative to achieving them doesn't mean that there is "no justification." It just means that you're out of step with God, lost, leaning on your own understanding.

that's one way of putting it...

Originally posted by Ichabod
It also appears that you don't know the difference between being born a sinner (a state of being) and engaging in sin (a thoughtful action). Or are you one of those philosophers bent on inventing autonomic decision making? Or are you agreeing with me about unintentional sins?

I'm saying that the creator of all, knowing all that would be when he created it, and having not changed that path but created it just the same, is responsible for all.

We are only what we were made to be.

So what's the point in judgment?

It would be like me programming a video game and making some good guys and some bad guys, and then torturing the bad guys because they're bad.
Is God a child and we his toys?
Surely any all knowing being would at least know where the responsibilities lie...

Originally posted by Ichabod
At any rate, you're not following the program. If you want to add to the discussion, why don't you look into the basis of the conspiracy that I'm proposing. Obviously, someone or something or some group of people has muddied the water of sound doctrine because 9 out of 10 Christians will tell you that God doesn't hate anyone and I've got quite a few references right here that says he does.

I agree.
God shows MANY signs of wrath in the Old Testament.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Well, IMO you're mistaken about 'most Christians' or you don't know what one is, but I'll submit that it needs research to continue arguing about it. But you'd have to define what being a true Christian is...good luck with that if you're not a bible believer.

Regarding God's responsibility vis a vis his O3 enduring immutable nature, you're missing a major point and it goes to ground on your video game example. We're not machines. He didn't make machines. He made self-aware autonomous agents with a mind's eye. When a machine becomes autonomous, it's not a machine. So, despite the fact that God sees every pothole, the agent, not God is responsible for his behavior. Without this, everyone might as well throw up their hands and scream out, "Why me?!?" The fact that they don't should tip you off - they're not daft. They're just autonomous and fully realize whether they admit it or not that they're responsible for their actions.

Think about Adam, should he have just thrown up his hands when God said, 'Name all these animals.' ? God knew what he was going to name them, why bother with the exercise? IMO he was exercising Adam's decision making ability and autonomy.

Anyway, if you're a game producer, you know that this is the target everyone wants to program - fully autonomous agents. I say, good luck to all who try but I'm skeptical that they'll ever get there because among other things, humans, unlike God, don't see the value in letting their darling creations stumble through potholes.

!!!

Originally posted by Ichabod
Regarding God's responsibility vis a vis his O3 enduring immutable nature, you're missing a major point and it goes to ground on your video game example. We're not machines. He didn't make machines. He made self-aware autonomous agents with a mind's eye.

Ah yes, the free-will debate .
This could go into a long drawn out debate on God knowing our end before we exist, our ability or lack thereof to do something which can't be predicted by the variables involved in our life, if any system can break free of causality or if it is bound by it and thus bound by the source, etc...

So I'll just say - I disagree .

reply to post by TruthParadox


I see my last exchange on the use of 'free' attached to will didn't stick. ho hum - did anyone read the decision theory book yet? What about 'deny ignorance'?

Anyway, causality has nothing to do with this. An agent doesn't have to slip those surly bonds to enjoy autonomy, he simply has to play by the rules, like gravity. Similarly, behavior and sin has causal relations. Many want to pretend it doesn't.

There are many means to any end. He has his disappointments as expressed in the bible. So, God can both know the future perfectly, control events perfectly, and allow autonomous agents. If you want to call them semi-autonomous because of causality, that's fine. God occasionally breaks even the rules of causation to make a point.

Originally posted by Ichabod
I see my last exchange on the use of 'free' attached to will didn't stick. ho hum - did anyone read the decision theory book yet? What about 'deny ignorance'?

Anyway, causality has nothing to do with this. An agent doesn't have to slip those surly bonds to enjoy autonomy, he simply has to play by the rules, like gravity. Similarly, behavior and sin has causal relations. Many want to pretend it doesn't.

What does every action or thought go back to?
Trace it back to the source.
Our actions are pulled by a string which is pulled by a string which is pulled by a string, etc, etc...
You can't form a thought or action which is independent of the Universe.
So everything you experience and everything you were born with ALL trace back to an outside source - they have to.

So any God who is all knowing and created the domino effect of our Universe must have also created our very actions.


God created Satan. When he created him, he knew what he would become. At that point, he has a choice - either create Satan to BE evil, don't create him at all, or make him like all the other angels.
But he chose to create Satan to be evil.
Then he created Adam. He created Adam knowing that he would be temped by the Devil, blah blah blah...

Who is responsible for all these things and everything that comes after?
The one that knew what would happen and created it that way just the same.

What makes you responsible for firing a gun? The fact that you know what will happen when you fire it.

God is all knowing and all powerful, therefor he also must be all responsible.

I think that trying to make God Human-like is not going to help. If there is a force that is universe and beyond,and which created the whole universe - it is not human being surely. It has no Human qualities/emotions/social status. Is Earth guilty that person X who evolved due to Earth existence suffered? And God-concept is not a single planet, it is everything everywhere and everytime.
I think that free will idea that you disregarded (maybe correctly since it is just as compex and not-provable concept as God is) is a corner stone for the whole problem. God is not good or bad. God cannot be good or bad. These are Human parameters. God cannot hate. god is not bearded person sitting on the cloud. Thus it is possible that what we consider as unjust,unfair or simpy poor (even evil - like agnostics) design which is unfair to individul and life in general , is in reality the only possible solution. Think of it as of creation of a stone God cannot lift paradox. Can God create life that does not have to constantly owe its existence to what created it...
In my opinion.

God hates all who do not believe in him. The bible says so. I think that all athiests should get together and try to find a way to defeat god THEN we will see who the believers in the world are.

Words make for very poor vessels when describing God but it's all we have isn't it?

When it's written that God "hates" this or that, we must understand that this is simply a condescension to our carnal minds so that we may have a little understanding.

God does not "hate" as we imagine.

Those in Hell are not tormented because God "hates" them. In fact, it's they who hate God and are tormented by his love.

reply to post by B.A.C.


He never hates the people - he created them -and Jesus saves (why does that annoy people? They should be thrilled. But I have found that everywhere I post about the love of Jesus, people get annoyed...well, ok, let them).

reply to post by monkcaw


Thats kinda like saying i support slavery becasue i love blacks.

I will never get why Humans project hatred upon an omniscient, omnipotent Creator.

If the Creator is all-that-is, then why the need for hate?

Simply does not compute. I can see the need for violence and hatred in a demigod or similarly lesser being but not in the Creator of all.

If a Creator gave its creations free will, then its intent is for the exercise of that free will for good or for bad otherwise what is the point?

Someone please explain this to me!

Originally posted by Sweet86
God hates all who do not believe in him. The bible says so. I think that all athiests should get together and try to find a way to defeat god THEN we will see who the believers in the world are.

Ehh?
If atheists got together and tried to defeat God, they would no longer be atheists, just Satanists lol .

reply to post by monkcaw


Good point although I wouldn't take it too far. A God interested in communing with us isn't out for confusion so I'm guessing that he made us capable of expressing in language how He really feels about a subject so that He could communicate with us. (This ought to throw the anti-"bible isn't the word of God" anti-literalist crowd into a tizzy. Maybe I'll even get a response from an atheist or two. Although, I now understand these religious topics are by-and-large meaningless to them so I would expect that they would not respond to any of this - having much more important evolution to attend to. hahaha)

This is actually one of the reasons I disregarded the reference to "but Esau he hated..." Following Walvoord and Zuck - this is likely 'shunning' the Edomites rather than visceral hatred of the kind I see on other areas. It's worth arguing though. Being shunned by God or being outright hated or even having God hate your behavior - what's the difference? Should we be splitting hairs?

[edit on 30-3-2009 by Ichabod]