Project Babylon - Iraq Super Gun.

Does anyone remember the Iraq supergun conspiracies of the early 90s were they a fake disinformation plan like the weapons of mass destruction said to be in Iraq and yet were not found? Has America done us over again with lies over Iraq to try and gain a foothold when it stands weak in the middle of a war? It shows not much had changed then and daddy Bush and Jr Bush seem to have arrived at the same conclusions twice, two wars twice the hype about nothing.
I am being pessimistic here on purpose but cannot help not doing so resolve it for me.

en.wikipedia.org...

Project Babylon was a project allegedly commissioned by the Iraqi president Saddam Hussein during the Iran–Iraq War to build a series of superguns. The design was based on research from the 60s Project HARP led by the Canadian artillery expert Gerald Bull. Although the details are sketchy, it appears that there were four different devices in total included in the program.

The project was supposedly halted in 1990 after Gerald Bull was assassinated and parts of the superguns were allegedly seized in transit around Europe. However, during the 1991 Gulf War the UK Government announced that the parts it had seized were oil pipes and not parts for a gun, as Iraq had claimed throughout. The remaining components in Iraq were allegedly destroyed by the United Nations after the 1991 Gulf War.


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I guess no one is interested right now about this or my timing is bad when I made this thread. i am sure many want to read this post and have an opinion.

I remember this.

I distinctly remember the British Security Services seizing some parts and carrying out raids.

It was definitely the real deal.

Heres some more info on the guy who designed it.

Gerald Bull

This new generation should read about it because its the same mirror excuse of the WMDs, what I now wonder is if our mistakes now pose as a cover to create the real threat where Iran and Korea is concerned. The situation can not be worse than Pakistan's nuclear weapons and the growing Sharia law terroritst who want to take over the country.

The super gun was real and there was no reason to not think Iraq could use chemical weapons in it.

But: It was a fixed implacement and was pointed at Isreal. This type of fixed target is just begging to be attacked.

The gun in theory could have launched small objects called Martletts into space (Kind of like a LEO satelite).

The real conspiracy is who had Bull killed? Im putting my money ont he Mossad

yeah us and germany supplied iraqs with bialogical weapons its true this sounds like classic secret society ploys of bankers this is a historic move seen in a lot of pre war's involing europe and the us iraqs govenment had to be taken to make room for the banks under a dictator ship factoinal banking wasnt very good now iraq is set and its time to chase the dragon out of afganistan and into the us another double backed war any way i seen a thing like a rocket pack that the residue literally scared the ground and killed any thing it made contact with ill find it out its in a book my mate has might have been depleted uranium but ill post it under iraq historic weapons good post harrp is hectic and ive been reading about it on and off now and then tesla inspired alot of it and i know the us wouldnt let him finish of a project that was very similar in theory to harrp i know planes are redirect around alot and i mean alot from there canadian base harrp is the mother wmd in so many ways

sorry heres a nice link to prove us funded weapons to iraqen.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

We in Europe and America have to blame for this because we keep supplying the toys that they make into weapons which help kill thier own and then they stabs us in the back. We should not give too much technology to places in the Middle East, now Russia is suplying Iran, another mistake. Another mistake was for Pakistan to have nuclear weapons, because once Sharia takes over and possible terrorist ideologies come into power no one will feel safe under their suicidle tendancies.
The Democracies should stop fuling the Sharia's of the world, in the end they don't want freedom but your asimilation into them and the guns will be pointing one day at us with fear.

Here a few picture links, shame they don't allow real photos on these pages anymore like they used to.





[edit on 31-3-2009 by The time lord]

[edit on 31-3-2009 by The time lord]

There is a good book about Dr. Gerald Bull. It's called Arms and the Man: Dr. Gerald Bull, Iraq and the Supergun by William Lowther, 1991.

Here's a quote that gives a flavor of the story.

By way of return for the much-needed artillery and supergun orders, Bull had also agreed to help the Iraqis in other areas. And now he believed that maybe the enemies of Iraq had discovered his help. Surely that was why his apartment was being mysteriously entered, and why not so subtle clues were being left. He was being warned. Someone was telling him to drop the deal with Iraq. But even though he was frightened, he couldn't afford to pull out.

From the prologue, pg. 14.

It's a good book about a very interesting man. During the early part of his career as an artillery genius, he worked for the US on systems designed to launch small satellites from special cannons.

I think Mossad killed Bull too. However there was a lot of politics behind this assassination. He was an important asset to more than one group of people. It is believed that there were consultations prior to the killing. There were very ample warnings. Bull was a special case.

[edit on 9-4-2009 by ipsedixit]

I found a nice little documentary on Bull, on YouTube.

Part One.



Part Two.

I read something about the Iraqi super gun once the news of it came out.


As i rememberd, the gunbarrel is made in sections in UK, and the order was made for an "Extremly high compression oil pipe".

What gave it away as a possible gunbarrel is that the "oil pipe" was not as long as one could expect, and it was reportet by the manufacturer to the goverment whom took emidiate action.


The gun emplacement itself, a "crater" looks like it has the possibility to be made like a mortar pit, with a 360 degree coverance by adding railtracks on the top of the "hill" around the pit, so the barrel can be turned to any direction, but as we remember from the first gulf war, Israel was the primary target, a possible secondary target for the gun could be Iran.


The biggest opperating gun in the world is stil the Norwegian Adolf gun, placed in Narvik.
The Adlof gun is one of 7 guns placed in Norway during WW2 occupation by the germans, the gun was originaly to be place on the H class battleships, but they were scrapt, the guns was sent for costal defences in Norway, France and Poland.

From Wiki on Adolf gun:

The 40.6 cm Schiffskanone C/34, sometimes known as the Adolfkanone (Adolf gun), was a German naval gun, designed in 1934 by Krupp and originally intended for the H Class battleships.

Date of design- 1934
Entered service - 1942 (as coastal defense guns)
Bore - 16 inches (406 mm)
Length - 69.3 ft (21 m)
Weight - 176.25 tons
Rate of fire - 2 rounds per minute
Shell weight - 2,271 lbs. (1,030 kg)
Propellant weight - 2 part charge 128 and 134 kg
Range - 39,800 yards (36,400 m) at 30 degrees
Muzzle Velocity - Standard Charge: 2,657 ft/s (810 m/s)
Mountings
2 gun turret Drh LC/34 (1,475 Metric tons)

In Norway, the gun was once tested, and ended with the army paying the hole city of Narvik for new windows.

There is a total of 4 guns in Norway, all of them is stil capable of beeing used, and one of them is a museum.

The H-class battleships:
The H-Class is the same design as Bismark class, but somewhat larger.
called the H-39 plan.

Bismark: 50,900 tonnes full load
H-39 plan: 62,500 tonnes full load

There was also an ambitious plan for even bigger battleships in the german navy, called the H-44 plan.

Yamato class (Worlds biggest battleship class): 73,000 tonnes fully load
armed with 9*18.1" guns
H-44 plan: 131,088 tonnes fully load, armed with 8*20" guns....but this is for another forum article :-)

Wiki pages:
H-44 plan: en.wikipedia.org...(1944)
Yamato: en.wikipedia.org...
Bismark: en.wikipedia.org...
H-39 plan: en.wikipedia.org...(1939)
the Adolf gun: en.wikipedia.org...

Have fun reading.

Loads of editing on my bad english

[edit on 9-4-2009 by Phoebus]

Here is some detail on what he is believed to have been doing for the Iraqis and what upset the Israelis:

www.ebroadcast.com.au...

At this point Bull convinced the Iraqis that they would never be a real power without the capability for space launches. He offered to build a cannon capable of such launches, basically an even larger version of the original HARP design. Saddam Hussein was interested, and work started on Project Babylon.

A smaller 45 metre, 350mm calibre gun was completed for testing purposes, and Bull then started work on the "real" PC-2 machine, a gun that was 150 metres long, weighed 2100 tonnes, with a bore of one metre (three feet). It was to be capable of placing a 2000kg projectile into orbit. However at this point the Iraqis told Bull they would only go ahead with the project if he would also help with development of their longer ranged SCUD-based missile project. Bull, never the politician, agreed.

Construction of the individual sections of the new gun started in England at Matrix Churchill[?] and also in Spain, Holland and Switzerland. Meanwhile Bull worked on the SCUD project, making calculations for the new nose-cone needed for the higher re-entry speeds and temperatures the missile would face. At this point Mossad started "warning" him to stop working on the missiles. Over a period of a few months his apartment was broken into several times but nothing was stolen. He nevertheless continued to work on the project, and in March 1990 he was shot five times in the back of the neck while opening his door.

The supergun project was stopped when its parts were seized by Customs in England in November 1990, and most of Bull's staff returned to Canada. The smaller test gun was later broken up after the Gulf War.

In reality, Project Babylon was useless and a complete waste of resources for the Iraqis.

Not only was it a fixed gun emplacement that could not be moved, the barrel could barely be traversed and was limited to pointing in a very narrow arc somewhere in the direction of Israel.
It would have served no purpose in the Gulf War.

If I remember correctly, it was theorised it could only fire 10 or so shells before the barrel lining would be completely degraded and it would require an entire overhaul.
It also required a small army of a few hundred men to operate.

There is a possibility it could have been used to launch special sabot rounds that would project satellites or other payloads into Low-Earth orbit, but that's probably fanciful speculation considering the diameters of the barrel compared to the size of most satellites.

Considering Project Babylon was effectively cancelled even before the First Gulf War broke out, it was never referenced as any concrete justification for that invasion.

Good points, that is why it is important to look at Senior Bush's past against his son's version of war with Iraq, they seem like similar stories based on no real evidence just to create a false war. Although Saddam was no saint, could the world live with the fact he treated his fellow humans so badly and it was known the world over?

The 2003 invasion of Iraq, from March 20 to May 1, 2003
en.wikipedia.org...

Germans guilty in Iraq supergun case
news.bbc.co.uk...
Friday, 31 January, 2003

Funny how these charges were brought just before the invasion of Iraq, why did they not decide 5 years before, funny how it happened just before they decided to do the fighting?

A court in the German city of Mannheim has convicted two businessmen of supplying weapons-making equipment to Iraq in violation of UN sanctions.
Engineer Bernd Schompeter was sentenced to five years and three months for dealing in drills that can be used for boring tubes for long-range cannons, capable of launching nuclear, chemical or biological warheads.

Prosecutors are seeking extradition of the third man, Sahib Abd al-Amir al-Haddad, following his arrest in Bulgaria in November.

The BBC's Jonathan Charles says prosecutors are hoping the punishments will deter others from helping Iraq to obtain weapons.

There are concerns that this may not be an isolated case and investigations into other companies are continuing.
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[edit on 23-4-2009 by The time lord]

The latest news today in november 2009 is that they are saying that it Iraq invasion was a false pretense and the intelligent services were wrong and ill informed. Did Iraq pay the price as scape goat or did saddam need to go before terrorism reached new heights and bring order to the region?

Inquiry told Iraq could not 'use' chemical weapons

Sir William Ehrman speaking at the inquiry
The UK received intelligence days before invading Iraq that Saddam Hussein may not have been able use chemical weapons, an adviser has said.

Foreign Office official Sir William Ehrman told the war inquiry that a report suggested that such weapons may have been "disassembled".

A separate report suggested Iraq might also "lack" warheads capable of spreading chemical agents, he added.

But Sir William defended the invasion, saying Iraq had flouted UN resolutions.

'WMD surprise'

Sir William, the Foreign Office's director general for defence and intelligence between 2002 and 2004, insisted that the role of intelligence in the decision to go to war was "limited".

He also said it was a "surprise" no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) were ever found in Iraq.

"It was not what we had expected," he added.

The reasons for going to war in Iraq - including the now discredited claim that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction which could be used within 45 minutes of an order being given - remain a long-standing source of controversy.

In its second day of public hearings, the inquiry looked into Iraq's weapons capability and its influence on the decision to go to war.


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Sorry for the bump but my Uncle was part of this. He was found suicided in his car around six years ago depsite no prior history of mental illness. My Dad met him the night before, he was perfectly happy but had was worried about being alone with his then fiance whp dissapeared and failed to pass on correspondence myself and family had sent to his children post funeral.

A video archive of him exposing the CIA and MI6 to the press is available here: Video The UK gov taught them how to avoid Iraqi arms embargoes is a CIA originated project to bypass Iraq embargo laws and protect 'a source' who turned out to be fabrication by intel).

Investigation

The official sotry of Gerald Bull's assasination is incorrect. He encountered two agents in his flat a few weeks prior to his assasination. They told him who they were from and what would happen if he continued his work. He spoke to others including my Uncle to discus the matter and chose to continue. Five other intel agencies were spying on him/likely looking to assasinate him here, just so happenes Mossad got there first (the payload of Babylon was a nuke aimed at Israel in reality, not an Iraqi satellite as was claimed).

TRIVIA: When my Uncle was finally released from false imprisonment due to UK gov shredding evidence of complicity and US seekeing death penalty against him to cover up their involvement, a police officer had given him a parking ticket so he knocked him out and escaped the ensuing chase going off-road.

originally posted by: bastion
Sorry for the bump but my Uncle was part of this. He was found suicided in his car around six years ago depsite no prior history of mental illness. My Dad met him the night before, he was perfectly happy but had was worried about being alone with his then fiance whp dissapeared and failed to pass on correspondence myself and family had sent to his children post funeral.

A video archive of him exposing the CIA and MI6 to the press is available here: Video The UK gov taught them how to avoid Iraqi arms embargoes is a CIA originated project to bypass Iraq embargo laws and protect 'a source' who turned out to be fabrication by intel).

Investigation

The official sotry of Gerald Bull's assasination is incorrect. He encountered two agents in his flat a few weeks prior to his assasination. They told him who they were from and what would happen if he continued his work. He spoke to others including my Uncle to discus the matter and chose to continue. Five other intel agencies were spying on him/likely looking to assasinate him here, just so happenes Mossad got there first (the payload of Babylon was a nuke aimed at Israel in reality, not an Iraqi satellite as was claimed).

Very interesting, talk about a bump!

I remember this story, have watched a doc or two on it! Thanks for the added info

a reply to: vonclod

Full expose and inteview by him here, names all the companies involved with document proof - they supplied CIA and MI6/MI5 with all details of the exports as part of the agreement: Iraq trade actively encouraged by US and UK

I appealed to Ken Clarke (justice minister who exposed government involvement and false imprinment of matrix churchill, src personel for an inquest into his death but nothing ever materialised.

The