Support Abortion? Watch this video and please defend your decisions...

reply to post by HunkaHunka


How convenient.

You obviously didn't watch the video. Which means that you are assuming that it is some horrible video full of propoganda.

I would use the word "apathy" at this point.

The whole point of the thread was to get some feedback from those who support abortion, after watching the portion of the video I highlighted.

I mean, try telling me that "fetus"is not a life after watching that portion.

Get it? I wasn't, and am not, trying to change people's minds. I just want to understand how you, and people like you, think and feel.

Edit to add that you can find the video under "silent scream" on youtube. find the complete video, and go about 14 minutes in...

[edit on 27-3-2009 by jasonjnelson]

reply to post by Aermacchi


I gotta say, you lost me. That post was so jumbled and erratic it could have come from Gary Busey. It resembled more typical religious, round and round, nonsense though, and I don't even feel like trying to figure out what you were even saying. I did see that you state every man has a scheduled time to die, and the level of brutality and fairness are not factors. That said, an abortion is simply that mans time to die, and the doctor is the vessel. The same as a tornado, abortion doctors have a purpose in god's eyes. You have absolutely no more room to wiggle out of that one, thanks for playing though.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


You don't get it do you.


It appears that your argument is whether a fetus is a life or not...

I DON'T CARE.

The question isn't whether it's a life or not... it really doesn't matter.

The question, is whether or not the woman carrying that life has a right to terminate it.

And you are right... I didn't watch the video because I've had so much disgusting propaganda thrown at me by "pro-lifers".

It very well could have been a cute and cuddely representation that the fetus is actually alive...

But like I said... I don't care... alive or not.. the question is about choice.



[edit on 27-3-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by 27jd


Love the Gary Busey comment!

reply to post by jasonjnelson


Yes, Jason, after watching the video I am quite sure that the fetus was alive and actively trying to avoid the discomfort of the suction tube.

However, "alive" and "able to respond to stimulus" does not equate to personhood.

Cockroaches are alive and attempt to avoid discomfort and danger. Does that make it also wrong to kill cockroaches? (please say NO!!! )

Obviously the fetus is alive, and obviously it can feel as it moves around trying to avoid the tube. Wasps show pretty much the same behavior and types of movement after I've just whacked one with a flyswatter.

The fetus is a potential human being. If allowed to grow, develop, and be born, it will become a thinking, reasoning, feeling human being just like you and I. However, it is not there yet. It is not scrambling away from the tube screaming "OMG help me they're trying to kill me!" It is a reflexive and purely instinctual avoidance of a negative stimulus (i. e. discomfort or pain).

It is sad that the fetus must suffer this pain. Birth control and the avoidance of creating situations in which fetuses are aborted would be much preferable.

However, demanding that people be outraged by the video you have presented is analogous to presenting a video of people fishing and expecting them to be outraged about the worms which are being drowned for no better reason than the convenience and entertainment of the people doing the fishing.

Granted, before you make the point, the worm will never develop into a sentient human and the fetus likely would, but the fetus is not there yet and these issues should deal with the conditions and reality of the present, not could-be would-be's of the future.

reply to post by 27jd


27jd I dislike just jumping into your conversation since Aermacchi's post are invisible to me, but you really-really-really can not debate with him. He has a mind set that makes it impossible to have a frutiful discussion or even a decent dabte. I've had at least seventy to one hundred debates on ATS so far and he's the first person I've put on ignore. You might want to save yourself some time, and just click the "ignore" button.

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


Same boat here...

Only one I've ever ignored...

Sad... but true.

reply to post by Aermacchi


I agree, the stories say that he got angry because they were defiling God's house. I know the story. And many others actually.

However, when 'Christians' begin to attack girls (and I mean GIRLS not women) for choosing this option, and they call them whores and sluts and on and on and on, how is that God like? How is that what Jesus taught?

I'm not bowing out in fear or weakness. I have decided that GOD is the only judge in this. Each person will face the creator on their own terms. Who are WE to make OTHERS do as we wish? Are we the creator? No. I think not.

You MUST remove emotion from this situation. I realize that is very hard to do but you must or else you are simply spouting off from one of the weakest parts of our bodies. The emotional side of the brain. Where rationality goes by the way.

Nice lecture though. Makes me feel like I'm back in church where I was taught that no matter how much good one does they will never EVER be like Jesus and will ALWAYS be a sinner.

HOGWASH!

Hey come on guys, this discussion is about defending abortion, not the people doing the discussion.

Let people decide for themselves who to ignore or not.

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by Aermacchi
You know how to know we have not punished anyone? BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL ARGUING THIS WITH US!

The days of crusades are over, and you have NO ability to punish us besides a few cowardly acts of terrorism here and there. We will continue to argue with you extremist zealots, and our numbers WILL grow, as yours diminish. Common sense is abound these days, much more so than the days of the inquisitions. You are no different than Bin Laden, you just read a different fantasy book.

I will admit, some people I know are alive today merely because it is illegal to kill them. I only wish it was illegal to kill ALL humans.

and you call US the cowards?

hehe

I think it should be illegal to kill anyone.

Not just the ones to weak and to unknown for anyone to defend them.

Christians cowardly acts of terrorism?

As oopsed to killing that BIG STRONG WELL ARMED AND SO DESERVING OF BEING RIPPED TO SHREADS BY HIS OWN MOTHERS THUMB TURNED DOWN, Infant Sons and Daughters

Yes I can see how killing innocent babies is so much more the noble act and so much more the excuse in your case to attack that sides oppressors.

Your vision of the future however is correct and one where again, the bronze age old book you think is so full of fairy tales

Beat you to it

AGAIN

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


I appreciate the thoughts, but in all the time I've been a member on ATS, I've never put anybody on ignore. I'm kinda stubborn like that, lol. Super religious nutcases come and go, and they all say the same things. I just tell them to shoot for the stars, one day they can lead their own sheep....

reply to post by HunkaHunka


You are right.

There is nothing to debate with you.

You have stated that whether or not it is life is not the issue.

You see, I believe it is life, therefore it merits consideration when considering these "rights" women have towards them.

But thanks for admiting you have no idea what the video is about.

reply to post by dariousg


Thats funny. I thought that emotion and logical thought, compounded with the ability to express them both, are what make us unique as life on this planet.

I find it hilarious at this point that you all keep up the attacks on issues that have nothing to do with this thread.

This is not about religion, as I would be hard pressed to find an atheist to defend murder of any kind.

Except, of course, unless someone does not call this "fetus" life, in which case they call it a solution to an accident.

Originally posted by Heike
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

What country are you in?

I am in the United States, and here we have freedom of religion. That means you can't force your religious views or rules on me.

So, if you are in the US, try making your argument(s) without referencing God or your religion, since the beliefs and rules of your religion have no bearing on US law.

According to separation of church and state, you may not use the tenets or "rules" of any one religion to justify laws which will govern all US citizens whether or not they are of that religion.

So, as I said, if you are in the "free" country known as America or the United States of America, please present reasons for issues of law without using religious beliefs as a basis.

Thanks.

I suggest you consider WHY I said anything about religion and as usual it was brought UP in an attempt to disparage it so if anyone here doesn't like religion than I suggest you do NOT bring it up because I rarely do and what you think of the separation powers is so far off base and so totally ignorant it would take another thread to explain just how screwed up your interpretation of the Constitution is.

reply to post by Heike


I appreciate your arguments. I disagree on many points, most of which I have already stated.
Just one thing.
I have not demanded outrage, merely a defense for what I percieve as an outrage.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
I will admit, some people I know are alive today merely because it is illegal to kill them.

Okay, I agree with you on that one, lol.

and you call US the cowards?

We're not the ones who are so violently opposed to your beliefs. Just because I detest organized religion doesn't mean I would bomb a church or anything. I just find you guys annoying, I don't hate you.

As oopsed to killing that BIG STRONG WELL ARMED AND SO DESERVING OF BEING RIPPED TO SHREADS BY HIS OWN MOTHERS THUMB TURNED DOWN, Infant Sons and Daughters

Yes I can see how killing innocent babies is so much more the noble act and so much more the excuse in your case to attack that sides oppressors.

Whoa relax, you got all crazy again, lol.

reply to post by Heike


I know Heike, it's not very tasteful, but I felt compelled to at least give warning, however I should have thought about a U2U. My bad.

Back on topic:

I think a lot of pro-lifers are still confused in this thread. There are plenty of pro-choice people who believe the unborn child is a life, that's why I only agree with abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. But like you pointed out (I believe) there are many different forms of life on this planet. Terminating a form of life does not automatically make a person a murderer, technically murder in modern society means the taking of a human life illegally. Anyone calling abortion murder is not accepting the definition. Many of them see the unborn as humans, but they are not, they’re potentially, but they have yet to be human. In the early stages of pregnancy the unborn can not survive without a mother’s womb, they have yet to reach a status where they can survive on their own. I think it is reasonable to terminate within this window of time.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

You are right.

There is nothing to debate with you.

You have stated that whether or not it is life is not the issue.

You see, I believe it is life, therefore it merits consideration when considering these "rights" women have towards them.

Look, I'm all for assuming it's a life when we debate this.

What I'm saying is that whether it is a life or not does not solve the debate.

The debate is not whether it is a life or not. So proving it is , is rather pointless.

The debate is whether or not a woman has the right to abort a pregnancy, and if so, when do these rights end...

For example... if it's a late term... and you can save either the woman or the baby... which do you save?

You see... the point you are making, that it's alive, doesn't solve anything.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


You know the argument is that its not a human till its born because it could not exist on its own, I will tell you this a 5 month old baby could not exist on its own without being cared for hand and foot yet if you kill it, its murder. We have to stop killing period. Women can have all the rights they want, if they dont want a child then for humanity's sake lets set up a government agency to pay for these unwanted babies and cover all expenses then after the baby is born give it up to couples that do want it. Set it up where the mother makes absolutely no money but has no debt and the adopting parents pay enough to cover the cost extended by the government. You have the left on one side that hates wars, and hates killing or harming others, yet has no thought for a child being slaughtered. Its a possible life from the moment its conceived, and we must air on the caution, if there is any chance that it can be considered a life then we must save it, it has just as many rights as the mother. I understand that rape is violent and other crimes against women are too, but to respond to a one violent crime with another is not right. There has to be a better solution, maybe scientist can figure out ways to remove the fertile embryo and place it into another mother or grow it in a lab but something must change. Children are to precious for us to just scrap out with a hanger. Peta will defend a cat with its life, tree huggers will put there life on the line for a tree or a forest, why will no one defend the most indefensible amongst us with their lives. I think the world has finally gone mad.

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


I concur with your stance on this.


I don't debate whether it's a life or not...

I'm completely comfortable with early term abortions.

Although I don't agree with late term either, someone has to describe what happens in the case where it's either the mother or the baby that's going to survive. Who makes the choice...What happens?