Hamas leader: Israel has tricked us and the Egyptians

Hamas leader: Israel has tricked us and the Egyptians

www.jpost.com

"We want to free [captured IDF soldier Gilad] Schalit but [Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert just doesn't want to free our prisoners," he told La Repubblica in an interview.

"The conditions for an agreement have been known for three years, and the Egyptians know them, too," Mashaal told the Italian newspaper. "They are the release of 1,000 Palestinians in two stages."

"Olmert has now shuffled the cards," he said in the interview.

(visit the link for the full news article)

So Israel really wants peace do they?

As time goes on I find that less and less likely to be the case, with each step Israel takes backwards from achieving any sort of level-headed truce or negotiation with Hamas.

First the 2008 Ceasefire is broken by Israel carrying out a cross-border raid in the Westbank, on June 24th, last year.
www.msnbc.msn.com...

On Tuesday, militants fired at least two rockets into southern Israel.

The attack came hours after Israeli troops killed two Palestinians in a West Bank raid. The victims included an Islamic Jihad commander.

Next they tighten the noose around Gaza's borders and restrict the movement of food, fuel and vital aid shipments in November 2008, under the premise of "weapons smuggling".
news.bbc.co.uk...

Then as if to rub the Palestinians noses in the mud even further and just push Hamas over the edge, they reject a Hamas-brokered ceasefire offer in December and perform another unauthorized raid on a tunnel between Hamas & Gaza in December 2008.
www.guardian.co.uk...
www.huffingtonpost.com...

The deaths of 6 Hamas members were considered a massive breach of the truce conditions and Hamas lets loose with the rocket attacks after Israel seemed unwilling to adhere to the original truce conditions they agreed to a year ago, simply using the lull as a good opportunity to cherry-pick Hamas targets with no reprisals and prepare for a well-planned-in-advance Gaza offensive.

Of course we all know the rest from there....

And people are still puzzled as to what the provocation was for Hamas to step up the rocket attacks in early 2009.
Sigh.

If Israel truly wants "peace", they sure have a funny way of going about obtaining it to me.

The end of rifle as opposed to the stroke of a pen, isn't going to get you anywhere other than on the receiving end of another rifle.

www.jpost.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 22/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

[edit on 22/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

America, uk, israel never want peace in any circumstances. Hamas are right not to listen to anything they say, pure bile.

Are there any decent people anywhere on this earth, anywhere, or is everyone just boll*cks?

Israel does not want peace. It wants to perpetuate and keep fueling the conflict to ensure American aide, and aide from Jews across the globe keeps flowing to them.

All these shameful travesties so inhumanely visited time and time again upon the hapless Palestinians are nothing but an industry to the Israelis.

If the United States and the Jews of the world stopped funding Israeli aggression and apartheid and left the burdens of its economic cost upon the Israeli people, peace would break out in no time.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

If the United States and the Jews of the world stopped funding Israeli aggression and apartheid and left the burdens of its economic cost upon the Israeli people, peace would break out in no time.

I often refer to US-Israeli relations as a parasitic relationship, in which America, the "host", who has been "taken over" by the Jewish Lobby and their powerful connections, is really the only thing keeping the state of Israel afloat and alive.

In no time we could create a true, two-state solution by simply cutting off Israel from all military aid and forcing it to use diplomacy instead of brute force to settle territorial disputes.

But of course, the Jewish Lobby are more than a match for even the President to taken on, and continuing military deals between Israel (America's largest purchaser of arms) and the US mean *cha-ching* for American military corporations, who again tie back to the Jewish Lobby and it's Republican friends.

Money once again comes into play, as it does with everything.

[edit on 22/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Well, Hamas has even funnier way of wanting peace. Does it even recognise Israel at all? So even if according to you Israel broke truce first - how is it about peace? There cannot be peace with Hamas since Hamas exists to end Israel,not create Palestine.
Also - especially because you for weird reason chose this particular topic.
Hamas has one Israeli soldier hostage. For his release it demands 450 Palestinian prisoners. And it is what stops end of blockade of Gaza. So if they find hard to release one (1) person to release blockade and Israel agrees to release hundreds to get one soldier back, who exactly blocks the deal?

Hamas wanted a truce but kept moving things through tunnels? sounds resonable then to deny a truce and distroy the tunnels. As long as ANY muslim leader speaks of jihad that land will burn. Lets them both grind eachother to dust. Then we can sweep them away and do somthing good with a peice of land raped by religion.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

If the United States and the Jews of the world stopped funding Israeli aggression and apartheid and left the burdens of its economic cost upon the Israeli people, peace would break out in no time.

I often refer to US-Israeli relations as a parasitic relationship, in which America, the "host", who has been "taken over" by the Jewish Lobby and their powerful connections, is really the only thing keeping the state of Israel afloat and alive.

In no time we could create a true, two-state solution by simply cutting off Israel from all military aid and forcing it to use diplomacy instead of brute force to settle territorial disputes.

But of course, the Jewish Lobby are more than a match for even the President to taken on, and continuing military deals between Israel (America's largest purchaser of arms) and the US mean *cha-ching* for American military corporations, who again tie back to the Jewish Lobby and it's Republican friends.

Money once again comes into play, as it does with everything.

[edit on 22/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

I can only theorize and guess what lays at the root of the black heart that comprises the United States Government relationship with Israel and the Zionists, that has caused one President after another President since Truman to grant so much aide and support to a state like Israel whose fundamental governing principals have more dissimilarities than similarities with ours.

If you visit the CIA’s online library at cia.gov, to look at documents released and declassified under the freedom of information act, and look at what the CIA was writing in reports to the President of the United States during the period of initial Israeli independence and the first couple years of it, it’s clear the CIA saw Israel as a threat to stability in the region and the United States own best interests in the region.

It’s no secret that after meeting with the King of Saudi Arabia on his way back from the Malta Conference that President Roosevelt was absolutely opposed to the introduction of a Jewish State in the Middle East, primarily because of the likelihood it could create the kinds of political upheaval in the region that could cause a disruption of America’s strategic oil supply.

Revisionist history favors the propaganda that Truman himself was a great friend and admirer of the Jews and Zionists, yet his own personal diaries suggest the exact opposite and portray him as a man and a leader vehemently at odds with their philosophies and political tactics.

The CIA having just morphed from the original wartime OSS was just in it’s infancy at the time, and while the released documents are heavily redacted, they conveyed that Israel was not just a potential threat but a grave threat to America’s interests in a region deemed vital for both a mechanized war machine that ran on oil, and an increasingly industrialized and mechanized economy domestically that ran on oil.

The CIA viewed the new Israeli state as a disaster in the making. It was actively not only engaged in gathering intelligence within the region but pursuing policies to at a minimum hinder the Israeli regimes growth and effectiveness.

Many people speculate that Truman who remained initially in opposition to recognizing a state of Israel in furtherance of Roosevelt’s policy was cajoled in the 11th hour by a high level delegation of American Jewish Businessmen on the evening before the United Nation’s vote to recognize the new state's declaration of independence from the British Governed U.N. Mandate of Palestine. It has long been suggested that the Jewish delegates attending this Whitehouse meeting threatened the President with adverse and negative publicity through the news and entertainment outlets that they owned, casting serious doubts if Truman, at the time a man sitting as President because of the untimely death of the previous one, could hope to be reelected in such an unfavorable press and media environment.

Its clear Truman broke with Roosevelt’s policy and voted to recognize Israel yet he also favored and passed into law an Arms Embargo against supplying Israel or Palestine. He obviously had no interest in helping the Israeli nation grow or to actively ensure its survival. This was no mere window dressing either. One of the pardons President Bush issued in his last flurry of Pardons before leaving office recently was to bestow a pardon posthumously upon a non-Jewish man who had hailed originally from Connecticut but had made Miami his home and had conspired with a couple prominent New York/New Jersey Jews to buy and smuggle a small fleet of converted B-29 bombers into Israel against the embargo. He was arrested and prosecuted and fined heavily and imprisoned for a relatively short period for the offense. The Jews involved were how ever given suspended sentences.

CIA documents show the Agency continued to view Israel as a danger and a threat right up until about mid 1949 when a strange transformation began taking place in its reports. The reports became even more heavily redacted for the period of almost two years and in the early fifties the reports began to display an almost total subservience to the Israeli cause with the CIA then plotting and formulating policy on how it could offset the damage caused in the Arab and Muslim world by the budding alliance between Israel and the United States.

While most questioning Americans theorize it is simply American Jewish dominance in the News and Entertainment medias that hold political candidates in high office under threat if they don’t promote the Israel and Zionist agenda, I think it runs much deeper than that, to cause each and every last American Politician of prominence to always find words in support of what ever the latest Israeli atrocity or act of aggression is.

I really think it has more to do with the Rothschild Family, their banking interests in the Federal Reserve and the fact that Constitutional Government virtually ceased to exist in the days after the Federal Reserve Act and the Balfour Agreement and the incredible political machinations and plots that revolved around those and World War I and then the Great Depression and the strange events that led to World War II.

I think if the full extent of the truth ever became known to the American people of just how badly, and by whom, and why, the Constitutional system of Government was abandoned and who gained from it and why, that it would lead the American people to have no choice in staging a second revolution to bring down everyone and everything in Washington from the Federal Reserve to the Houses of Congress, the Whitehouse, the CIA, FBI, NSA, Social Security Administration, Department of Commerce, and the Department of Health Education and Welfare, the State Department, Pentagon, and withdraw from the United Nations.

I think it’s that deep and I truly think that’s the only thing that can explain such a democratic and fair people, being so mislead as to side with a government and state that provides nothing in return for the billions upon billions doled out annually to them beyond sheer embarrassment and shame.

I do believe if the relationship is ever severed Israel will fall in short order, and Israel is well aware of it.


[edit on 22/3/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

[edit on 22/3/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

Does it even recognise Israel at all?

You're trying to imply that Israel gives full diplomatic recognition to Hamas as the elected representative of the Palestinians when it doesn't; even though it won the first fair and democratic elections held in Palestine in 2006, where it won by a majority over the Fatah party.

There cannot be peace with Hamas since Hamas exists to end Israel,not create Palestine.

In 2004, Hamas's former leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin offered to end all armed resistance in exchanged for total control of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. (He was killed later in an airstrike, what a coincidence).
www.independent.co.uk...

In 2006 after the Legislative Elections, Hamas offered a 10 year truce to Israel and an end to suicide bombings in exchange for a full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, Gaza and the East Jerusalem.
www.ynetnews.com...

Hamas also omitted the call for the "destruction of Israel" from its election manifesto, calling instead for "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem."
www.guardian.co.uk...

Israel never so much as acknowledged any of these offers, let alone gave them serious consideration.

What other conclusion is Hamas supposed to come to, when the Israelis don't listen to their peace offers, other than Israel only understands violence and communicates in violence?

Hamas has made more inroads to peace in the last decade than all of Israel's half-assed policies put together.

So if they find hard to release one (1) person to release blockade and Israel agrees to release hundreds to get one soldier back, who exactly blocks the deal?

Did you not read the article?

Olmert refused to negotiate with Hamas entirely.

The Israelis actively block any attempts made at peace to garner more financial and military support from the American Jewish Lobby and sympathy from the rest of the world when they cry their crocodile tears and pretend to play victim.

[edit on 22/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

It is not a secret that apples are not oranges. So if Hamas refuses to recognise a country , and Israel refuses to recognise a terror organisation - it is apples and oranged. Israel officialy recognise Palestinian right for indepandance. Hamas leader officialy said this:

We believe that Israel has no right to exist", he added later in remarks to an Arab audience. "Hamas will never take such a step."

Twoalbawaba.com...
other "tiny" corrections:

Hamas also omitted the call for the "destruction of Israel" from its election manifesto, calling instead for "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem

From that same link that you used:

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said.

Hmm, so they do not recognise Israel right to exist. Your link also shows it. They just "omited the call" for political reasons. Real doves,those guys.

Olmert refused to negotiate with Hamas entirely.

This is a lie, pure and simple. Israel was ready to release 320 out of 450 prioners.

Olmert had agreed to free more than 320 of the 450 prisoners on the Hamas list, Israeli political sources said. But he balked at releasing those who orchestrated the deadliest bus and cafe bombings that have killed scores of Israelis since the outbreak of a Palestinian uprising in 2000, the sources said.

www.haaretz.com...
The thing is that you trust a side that lied so often too blindly. i do not say that this article is more correct. But truth is not that clear anyay. It is all part of pressure games. I just ant to tell you that here every media source on the day of the failure was reporting with general impression that it would go through.
And one general clarification - in light of what i showed earlier

In 2006 Hamas offered a 10 year truce to Israel and an end to suicide bombings in exchange for a full Israeli withdrawl from the West Bank, Gaza and the East Jerusalem.

10 year truce for return of territories, and then what? Another war surely. Since Hamas still does not recognise Israel.

Edit - missed a link

[edit on 22-3-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

Hamas has stated quite clearly that they would recognize Israel based on the Legal pre '67 borders. When Israel was created through a UN Mandate, 48% of the former Palestine was set aside for Palestinian use. Israel has since then illegally occupied all but 12% of the land. Hence the term Palestinian Occupied Territories. Israel has refused any consideration of a Palestinian state, nor any rights for Palestinians in a single state solution. Currently Palestinians are subject to a system of Apartheid that even Bishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela describe as being worse than what occurred in South Africa, which was abolished as extremely racist. Israel plays games with peace treaties and keeps Palestinians in concentration camps. Do not blame the oppressed for fighting back. Blame those in power, the Israeli occupiers, for refusing to negotiate honestly and humanely.

reply to post by Terapin

Hamas has stated quite clearly that they would recognize Israel based on the Legal pre '67 borders.

Source,please? I even going to give you bonus, find that Hamas accepts Israel,Jewish national home,beside Palestinian national home, as it is,just in post 1948 borders and you will prove me wrong.
and please,do not use THIS:

We accept a state on the June 4 line with Jerusalem as capital, real sovereignty and full right of return for refugees but without recognizing Israel," Mashaal told reporters

[edit on 22-3-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

Hamas would recognise Israel if it withdraws to its pre-1967 borders, a French Jewish writer said this week after meeting the exiled leader of the Palestinian Islamist movement, Khaled Meshaal.

“He told me that Hamas was prepared to recognise Israel on the lines of June 4, 1967. He told me so several times,” Marek Halter told AFP on Monday.

Hamas would recognise Israel based on Legal pre '67 Borders

"We accept a state in the '67 borders," said Hamad. "We are not talking about the destruction of Israel."

Hamas not talking about Israels destruction

There are several sources for this and these statements have been made publicly.

As a well respected world leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner stated "Peace will come when Israel grants to Palestine only that which Israel demands for itself; a right to exist and a nation of their own.
60 years of misery and death have resulted from Israel's basic hypocrisy of demanding recognition while refusing to give it."

Lets see Israel agree to Palestinian rights. It wont happen.

[edit on 22/3/09 by Terapin]

reply to post by Terapin


Nothing could be simpler then quoting Hamas representative saying that orgnisation RECOGNISE state of Israel. Accept - is not diplomatic term. I accept that there is now Hamas in Gaza. However i do not recognise Hamas as a legitimate organisation that could be a side in a peace process. See tiny difference between accept nd recognise?
So you say that

Hamas has stated quite clearly that they would recognize Israel based on the Legal pre '67 borders

Once again, where and when Hamas leader openly said that they recognise Israel? Because it is what counts as recognition. Not second-hand report of non-diplomat.
Where Hamas clearly stated that they would recognise Israel?

[edit on 22-3-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Hamas will recognize Israel... (from an Israeli news source)

The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.

And I question again, where has Israel EVER recognized the rights of Palestinians? They continue to Illegally occupy Palestinian Territory and are currently in the process of destroying more Palestinian homes on the premise that they were built illegally, despite the fact that the houses were there before Israel existed. The Homes are in Palestinian territory, yet Israel wishes to use the land for Israeli settlements, which are illegal.

Israel can not demand that Hamas recognize the State of Israel when Israel does not even recognize basic human rights for Palestinians.

[edit on 22/3/09 by Terapin]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

So if Hamas refuses to recognise a country , and Israel refuses to recognise a terror organisation - it is apples and oranged.

Hamas has the majority vote of the people of Gaza.

They are it's elected representatives (like it or not), hence they represent the Palestinian territories as a whole.
That's what the Israelis don't like about giving the Palestinians democracy, they might not vote the way the Olmert and the Zionist right-wingers want them to.

The same way the Knesset represents the elected legislative parties of Israel, and despite the fact that the Knesset regularly orders the IDF to go and commit horrible war crimes & kill civilians, it's still recognised as the elected representatives of Israel.

Considering Hamas nothing but a mere "terrorist organisation" is precisely the same attitude that Hamas used for decades regarding Israel, and it got the peace process nowhere.

Israel has to stop turning back the clock. Hamas has been since 2000, more or less willing to negotiate a wide variety of terms with Israel and formally recognise it, providing certain conditions will be met.

Who said the road to peace would easy and fair?

You talk about how Israel is trading 400 prisoners for 1 and call it "unfair"; who said sacrifices wouldn't have to be made?
Israel has to show the Palestinians they're willing to compromise to do what's in the best interests of the future generations.

And considering the fact that the people of Gaza have sacrificed food, running water, electricity, medical aid and shelter, I think it's Israel's turn to start making some compromises here.

Instead of always pretending to play victim.

Hmm, so they do not recognise Israel right to exist. Your link also shows it. They just "omited the call" for political reasons. Real doves,those guys.

I never claimed they recognised Israel. Show me where I said that.

I said they stopped calling for Israel's total destruction officially as you can see in that quote, whereas Israel still regards Hamas as nothing but utter scum worthy of total annihilation.

The leader of Israel’s opposition Likud Party, Benjamin Nentanyahu, said Tuesday that ultimately Hamas would have to be removed from Gaza and if the government chose to do so in this war, he would support it.

www.nytimes.com...

That's a first step, the least Israel could do is to return the favour and view only the military wing of Hamas as a terrorist organisation, like the UK, Australia and other countries do, not the entire faction, which is primarily a political movement more than anything.

This is a lie, pure and simple. Israel was ready to release 320 out of 450 prioners.

From your source:

They believe, however, that the negotiations' fate has been sealed for the prime minister's remaining time in office.

They say it is likely that the talks will continue along quieter channels, but only after Netanyahu takes office and formulates his policy on the matter.

In other words, CASE CLOSED.

They have no will to negotiate, because they don't want to make any concessions towards peace.

They think unrealistically at some point Hamas will simply put down their weapons and accept Israeli rule, without any sacrifices being made on Israel's side.

Like I said before, who said reaching peace would easy, fair and uncompromising?

Israel shows absolutely no initiative towards it, whatsoever.
Israel is the one obviously in a better position economically, militarily, and politically and they expect Hamas and the Palestinian people to be reasonable with them and play along whatever terms they set, when they've effectively just committed the largest scale conflict in Israel since the Yom Kippur War.

This is supposed to inspire confidence in the Palestinians? Make them more agreeable?
You really need to understand who's in the gutter here and who's pretending to be in the gutter.

Releasing 400 prisoners for 1 Israeli would be exactly the sort of move Israel needs to make right now, to show the Palestinian people even after a massive scale conflict they are still ready to remain level-headed and willing to sacrifice something in order for peace.

10 year truce for return of territories, and then what? Another war surely. Since Hamas still does not recognise Israel.

Maybe Israel should have found out?

Maybe Hamas would have been very willing to cease the armed campaign and recognise Israel after 10 years of being able to live in their own lands peacefully without Israeli interference?

Oh yeah wait I forget, Israeli had a lot too loose.

All those "Jewish settlers" in the West Bank and Gaza, and their precious military outposts (I mean "Kibbutz's") with a total population of less than 5,000 people most likely.

Israel just refuses to make any concessions, and that's where the fault of this whole peace process lies.

Israel thinking they're the infallible, God's "Chosen people", whom everyone else must bow down to and accept their words.

[edit on 23/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Probably the most warped and biased view on the Israeli Palestine situation if there was one.

Everything you said was utterly biased and/or patently untrue.

Hamas is an illegal government in Gaza which Israel doesnt recognize. There is no truce or anything with such a terrorist group. Also, Hamas has never recognized the right of Israel to exist in the first place, its main function is to destroy Israel. How can Israel even recognize such a group ?

Moreover the Tunnels are illegal violations of international borders. Israel has every right to secure its borders. Not to mention, Hamas were the ones who were foolish enough to run away to Gaza and then decided to launch thousands upon thousands of rockets into Israel for months. Did they really expect no retaliations ? If they did they were fools.

As for the Palestinian people, the death and destruction they faced under Hamas rule is their OWN responsibility. Just like how the Germans suffered after WW2 because of Nazi rule. They Palestinians who elected Hamas CHOOSE to put their fate in the hands of terrorists. The death and destruction they faced is their own responsibility. They know how Isreal and the world will respond and they did it anyway, they deserve the consequences.

Double Post.

Delete

[edit on 23-3-2009 by IAF101]

reply to post by IAF101

Probably the most warped and biased view on the Israeli Palestine situation if there was one.

Right, and your name and signature just inspire so much credibility into what you're saying it's unbelievable.

We already have enough Zionist-thumpers on this thread as it is. Please, argue by presenting facts and proof or don't argue at all.

As for the Palestinian people, the death and destruction they faced under Hamas rule is their OWN responsibility.

Remind me, when did the Palestinians ask the Israelis to bomb them back into the stone-age and killed thousands of their countrymen?

When did they ask Israel to block off the borders and cut off their food, medical and fuel supplies?

I don't recall them having much of a say in what the IDF blows up.

The death and destruction they faced is their own responsibility. They know how Isreal and the world will respond and they did it anyway, they deserve the consequences.

Now did you really write that last bit that I emphasised or have I entered some parallel dimension here, where good is bad?

So in effect the Palestinians deserve to die because of their choice of votes in a democratic election?

You actually believe this?

That has just spoken to me volumes on how warped and deluded your thoughts really are.

That you believe people who vote for an elected representative, who decides to wage war against an illegal occupation and happens to kill people during warfare (as naturally that's what happens); deserve to die.

Let me reverse the tables here:
Does the American populace deserve to die for re-electing George Bush twice? A man who's actions have directly contributed to the death of a million people in Iraq?

No.
Military actions are beyond the control of the voting populace in any democracy, because the founding principle of democracy is that the right to wage war is reserved exclusively for the ruling party to deliberate on. The citizens of a democracy cannot be held responsible for their country's foreign policy, as they have virtually no say in it.

Your sad, misconstrued ideas only embody how fervently you believe in Zionist propaganda.


[edit on 23/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

It all depends on what you mean by Israel.
Do you mean the Israeli people?
Because they sure want peace.
Or do you mean the corrupt evil dictators who have infiltrated there government?
Because they most certainly do not want peace.
Government being infiltrated by corrupt evil dictators, ring a bell?
Look to any country in the world, and you have the same damn problem.
Evil psychopaths running it.