Ancient America Rocked!

Hello and good evening one and all. While researching for another thread of mine Olmec Giant Stone Heads Mystery Solved? I ended up with more questions than answers, So I thought I’d pull it together here in one thread.
Which made me research just who were the first Americans? Well that argument opens a great big giant can of worms. It all pretty much comes down to this fellow here and who you ask.
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The Clovis Point

Clovis points are the diagnostic projectile point associated with the North American Clovis culture. They date to the Paleo-Indian period around 13,500 years ago. They are named after the city of Clovis, New Mexico, where examples were found in 1929 by local men who eventually encouraged Edgar Billings Howard to visit. This first visit occurred in August 1932 while Howard was digging with a joint team from the Philadelphia Academy of Natural Sciences and the University of Pennsylvania at Burnet Cave in the Guadalupe Mountains, New Mexico. Clovis points are often found within the remains of Pleistocene megafauna.

Most geneticist agree that the first wave supposedly came out of Africa between 50 to 60 thousand BC and made it all the way to Australia and possibly China, Who’s to say they didn't make it all the way to North America and headed south?[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9a051a8e7901.jpg[/atsimg]
While others feel that it there was an influx of early European blood during the last ice age.
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Indigenous peoples of the Americas

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According to the still-debated New World migration model, a migration of humans from Eurasia to the Americas took place via Beringia, a land bridge which formerly connected the two continents across what is now the Bering Strait. The most recent point at which this migration could have taken place is c. 12,000 years ago, with the earliest period remaining a matter of some unresolved contention.[1]

These early Paleoamericans soon spread throughout the Americas, diversifying into many hundreds of culturally distinct nations and tribes.[2] According to the oral histories of many of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, they have been living there since their genesis, described by a wide range of traditional creation accounts.

DISCLAIMER
To date, no consistent pre-Clovis cultural patterns have been established and the accuracy of these claims have been found controversial and unverified.

Topper

Topper is an archaeological site located along the Savannah River in Allendale County, South Carolina in the United States. It is noted as the location of controversial artifacts believed by some archaeologists to indicate human habitation of the New World as far back as 50,000 years ago.

Monte Verde

Monte Verde is an archaeological site in south-central Chile, which has been dated to 14,500 years before present.[1] It pre-dates the earliest known Clovis culture site of Clovis, New Mexico, by 1000 years, contradicting the previously accepted "Clovis model" which holds that settlement of the Americas began after 13,500 years before present. As such the Monte Verde findings were initially dismissed by most of the scientific community, but in recent years the evidence has been widely accepted,[2][3] although vocal "Clovis-first" advocates remain.[4]

Cactus Hill

Cactus Hill is an archaeological site in the U.S. state of Virginia. It lies in the southeastern part of the state on the Nottoway River roughly 45 miles south of Richmond. The site, owned by the International Paper Corporation, is situated on sand dunes above the river. The site has yielded multiple levels of early occupation. Archaic stage material is underlain by fluted stone tools associated with the Clovis culture dated to 10,920 BP. A lower level yields artifacts including unfluted bifacial stone tools with dates ranging from c. 15,000 to 17,000 years ago. White pine charcoal from a hearth context on this level dates to 15,070 radiocarbon years BP[1]. Further charcoal deposits retrieved at the site date to as early as 19,700 years ago, although these deposits may have been made by forest fires.Cactus Hill is arguably the oldest archaeological dig in North America.

OK so the verdict is still out on who the first true Native Americans were. This however should not downplay their amazing accomplishments! I always shutter when I see old movies or read old books that make statements that Native Americans were uncivilized. I still cringe even as I type this. It seems that wherever we see great accomplishments in Native American cultures there always has to be some outside influence that is responsible. Africans are responsible for the Oldest Mesoamericans the Olmec . Even with Central America there seems to be some controversy over who they were and where did they come from. Especially with the Olmec who were before the Maya and Aztec
Olmec

The great majority of scholars who specialise in Mesoamerican history, archaeology and linguistics remain unconvinced by these speculations.[34] Many are more critical and regard the promotion of such unfounded theories as a form of ethnocentric racism at the expense of indigenous Americans.[35]

The consensus view maintained across publications in peer-reviewed academic journals that are concerned with Mesoamerican and other pre-Columbian research is that the Olmec and their achievements arose from influences and traditions that were wholly indigenous to the region, or at least the New World, and there is no reliable material evidence to suggest otherwise.[36] They, and their neighbouring cultures with whom they had contact, developed their own characters which were founded entirely on a remarkably interlinked and ancient cultural and agricultural heritage that was locally shared, but arose quite independently of any extra-hemispheric influences.[37]

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Well as I've stated before I'm not against the idea of ancient sea traders but to date there is no concrete proof of such travels yet, and on top of all that there is no DNA evidence nor are there verifiable artifacts.

I do believe that a truer or should I say a more accurate history of Ancient America has not been completed yet, They are digging up older and older settlements and some artifacts just don't seem to fit into the time line that has been so neatly laid out before us and that leads us in new directions which in turn teaches us a new version of events and so on.

There is a lot of jungle that has yet to be explored and as with most archeological endeavors it's been mostly based on luck. For example look at Caral Supe. Nobody thought to look in that area and it turned out to be one of the oldest in the new world. The question becomes was that the oldest?
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Source

Last December, Haas and Creamer again made headlines with a paper in Nature that presented carbon datings for 13 sites with platform mounds and residential complexes in river valleys near Caral.

Some appeared to be even older than Caral, with dates as early as 3200 B.C. “It is now clear,” the couple wrote, that Caral and other Supe Valley sites “were parts of a much more extensive cultural system that reached across at least three valleys and an area of 1,800 square kilometers.” They called the region the Norte Chico, a colloquial term for the north-central coast of Peru. And they mentioned Shady only in their footnotes.

One of the major problems with early Proto-civilizations is that many of them never needed to develop the wheel for example or even writing. Look at ancient Egypt the very early periods, no wheel. Yet they developed and prospered.

In South America there is no real way to know just how many cultures flourished and then died out for various reasons and there could have been many groups of mound builders. [atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/af1f430ecdfb.jpg[/atsimg]
These groups may have never developed writing nor used large stone blocks. The jungle could have reclaimed such locations and rain would have just simply washed away the evidence of mud mounds and huts, what we are left with are simple stone carvings on wall surfaces such as what was found in Brazil "The Ingá stone"
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Inga Stone

The Ingá Stone (Pedra do Ingá in Portuguese) is located in near the small city of Ingá in the Paraíba State in the northeast of Brazil. The Ingá Stone is also called Itacoatiara do Ingá. The word Itacoatiara means stone in the Tupi language of the natives that lived in that area. It is composed of some basalt stones covered with symbols and glyphs undeciphered until now.

Most scholars think its origin is related to the natives that lived around until the 18th century, but there are also some people that defended an extraterrestrial origin. Most glyphs represents animals, fruits, humans, constellations (including the Milk Way), and other unrecognizable images.

And
El Fuerte Bolivia[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1e010e9c35aa.jpg[/atsimg]

Not far away from Samaipata, one of the most important archeological monuments of pre-Columbian time in Bolivia can be found: El Fuerte (The Fortress). This archeological place has been declared Cultural Patrimony of Humanity by UNESCO. This mysterious place has been given many hypothetical explanations for its origins. It is supposed that El Fuerte is the work of the Amazonian pre-Incan 'Chané' culture, and later on was used as an advanced city by the Incas and finally by the Spanish colonists that turned El Fuerte into a fortress.

El Fuerte near Samaipata from aside village near el fuerte El Fuerte is the largest carved stone in the world. This archaeological monument reaches a height of 1.949 metres above sea level and is on the ridge of a hill of a sandy rock where ancient cultures sculptured figures but emphasized snakes and pumas, as well as waterways and wells, triangular and rectangular seats, vaulted niches, among other details.

We know for example that these cultures flourished right up until the first Europeans in 1492 showed up in the new world and all the early explorers stated that there were people everywhere all up and down the eastern coasts of North America the Caribbean and South America. We know that man was in the Caribbean very early on


Ortoiroid people

The Ortoiroid people were the first human settlers of the Caribbean. They are believed to have originated in the Orinoco valley in South America, migrating to the Antilles from Trinidad and Tobago to Puerto Rico.

Rouse theorizes that the Ortoiroid developed for a large amount of time in South America before moving to the West Indies.[1] The earliest radiocarbon date for the Ortoiroid is 5230 BC from Trinidad; the latest date is 190 AD from Puerto Rico.

Even in North America if we traveled up the Mississippi at that time. We find Mound builders who were possibly contemporaries of the Aztec and maybe even the Maya

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Cahokia

Cahokia kəhoʊkiːə is the site of an ancient Native American city (650-1400 CE) near Collinsville, Illinois in the American Bottom floodplain, across the Mississippi River from St. Louis, Missouri. The 2,200-acre (8.9 km2) site includes at least 109 man-made earthen mounds. Cahokia Mounds is the largest archaeological site related to the Mississippian culture, which developed advanced societies in eastern North America centuries before the arrival of Europeans.[1]

Cahokia was settled around 650 CE during the Late Woodland period. Mound building did not begin until about 1050 CE, at the beginning of the Mississippian cultural period. The inhabitants left no written records beyond symbols on pottery, shell, copper, wood, and stone.[4]. The city's original name is unknown.

Now I know I haven’t covered some of the all time favorites, we all know about the plains Indians and the Great Aztec and Mayan pyramids or the Incas. I thought I’d show more of the lesser known tribes and locations there is more here than meets the eyes. So if there were Asians or Africans in Native Histories in the end it does not mean a thing.
We should be proud of what the native peoples of America have accomplished and we do have a rich heritage! I say we should get to know it. Oh and by the way I say we for a very good reason.
You see my family ties on my father side to this land run deep.

Finally I’ll leave you with a few pictures to ponder.

Cohoke North America
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Olmec Central America
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Olmec Central America
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China
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Thanks for reading


[edit on 19-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

excellent information and post.

Its not until you go to a site in Yucatan or Bolivia and sit and look at the constructions spread out before you the scale of what they accomplished can be understood. It will take hundreds of years to uncover what exists in the Yucatan alone, there are thousands of sites buried under jungle growth. And the precision and care of construction..it is amazing.

I dont have the info handy, but remember reading if any evidence found before a certain period, which is when Glaciers blocked the path from Siberia to America's, then it can only be thru ocean voyage that peoples came to America's from Asia.
Also it doesnt mean they went directly Asia transpacific to Canada or California. More likely they hugged the coastline until they reached a land they liked enough to settle, or even moving on as generations matured and wanted to continue exploring. It would be far easier to build a craft able to use coastal winds and currents and travel offshore relatively close the safety of land. This could also have occured from Europe, hugging coastal glaciers which would provide source of food for the journey.

In another thread - Polyneisan Transpacafic contact by skyfolating i had posted the matter below

Originally posted by coredrill
I would like to add to this discussion, the finds at Serra da Capivara, in Brazil, where archaeologists have excavated remains that indicate that humans were in the "New World" 50,000 years ago.

Until now, native Americans were believed to have descended from Asian ancestors who arrived over a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska and then migrated across the whole of north and south America. The land bridge was formed 11,000 years ago during the ice age, when sea level dropped.

However, the new evidence shows that these people did not arrive in an empty wilderness. Stone tools and charcoal from the site in Brazil show evidence of human habitation as long ago as 50,000 years.

BBC : Ancient Voices -Tracking The First Americans

Please read further.

Pre-Siberian American Aborigines

Americas Settled by Two Groups of Early Humans, Study Says

On youtube, the whole episode is available in 6 parts. Links to these 6 parts are available on my profile under comments.

Disclaimer : What is Quoted is from Other Websites and I Do Not stand as Guarantor for the truthfulness of the quoted matter. If anybody wants to verify it, Go ahead!

[edit on 19/3/09 by coredrill]

reply to post by coredrill


Thanks for the links. I say lets keep digging. You know maybe the new world was always destined to be a melting pot of many races

Here is part 1 of a 3 part video I've posted if any of you haven't seen it yet. The rest are available just click on it and find the other two.

Here's a couple of links to another possible explanation that may interest you!
Egyptians in the Grand Canyon?

Archaeological Coverups?

Great info, and inspirational too.

Unfortunately... does it really matter? We've already conquered these people and all but destroyed their culture. Now we raise up some stories about their past, why? Do we wish to piss them off a little more about what they've lost?

Perhaps it is good to realize what we destroyed in the past, how ****ing stupid people really are. It's too late though, that culture is dead, and unless you plan on "going native" it doesn't really matter. Even then it doesn't really matter because if you do "go native" then you're just a cookoo like the rest of those "native americans."

Apologies. It just really ticks me off how awesome things get destroyed so easily.

reply to post by dragonking76


I agree that a LOT of wonderful cutures and traditions have been destroyed over the course of humanity.

However, I still find this stuff fascinating....It's important to me personally to know the true history of mankind!!

reply to post by mpriebe81


Although that is entertaining the DNA proof is just not there.
Again I'm all for Traders traveling the globe in antiquity but so far nothing concrete has popped up. Although there are a few odd things such as this from South America. Which to many look very aboriginal

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[edit on 19-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by dragonking76
Great info, and inspirational too.

Unfortunately... does it really matter? We've already conquered these people and all but destroyed their culture. Now we raise up some stories about their past, why? Do we wish to piss them off a little more about what they've lost?

Yeah I hear ya.

My family is half native and half European so I see both sides of this
Many of these locations are not very well known that's why I focused on those instead of all the well known touristy areas

[edit on 19-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


That is true, no factual evidence to back up the "Egyptians in the Grand Canyon" story ran in 1909. The thing that really intrigues me about this story though, is that there is an area in the Canyon that, if one were to visit, one would not be allowed access to. Just the fact that cave entrances have been seemingly sealed up purposely makes me want to know: what is really in there??!?!? Raises my suspicions like crazy!

Seems we are all buying the diffusionist theory though, so i'm smiling for sure.

from the front page of THE PHOENIX GAZETTE of April 5th, 1909

gc_ArizonaGazette5April1909.htm

EXPLORATIONS IN GRAND CANYON

Mysteries of Immense Rich Cavern being brought to light
Jordan is enthused
Remarkable finds indicate ancient people migrated from Orient

The latest news of the progress of the explorations of what is now

regarded by scientists as not only the oldest archeological

discovery in the United States, but one of the most valuable in the

world, which was mentioned some time ago in the Gazette, was brought

to the city yesterday by G.E. Kinkaid, the explorer who found the

great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon during a trip from

Green River, Wyoming, down the Colorado, in a wooden boat, to Yuma,

several months ago.



According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kinkaid, the

archaelogists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the

expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove

that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid

rock by human hands, was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt,

tracing back to Ramses. If their theories are borne out by the

translation of the tablets engraved with heiroglyphics, the mystery

of the prehistoric peoples of North America, their ancient arts, who

they were and whence they came, will be solved. Egypt and the Nile,

and Arizona and the Colorado will be linked by a historical chain

running back to ages which staggers the wildest fancy of the

fictionist.



A Thorough Examination



Under the direction of Prof. S. A. Jordan, the Smithsonian Institute

is now prosecuting the most thorough explorations, which will be

continued until the last link in the chain is forged. Nearly a mile

underground, about 1480 feet below the surface, the long main

passage has been delved into, to find another mammoth chamber from

which radiates scores of passageways, like the spokes of a wheel.


Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways

running from the main passage, one of them having been explored for

854 feet and another 634 feet. The recent finds include articles

which have never been known as native to this country, and doubtless

they had their origin in the orient. War weapons, copper

instruments, sharp-edged and hard as steel, indicate the high state

of civilization reached by these strange people. So interested have

the scientists become that preparations are being made to equip the

camp for extensive studies, and the force will be increased to

thirty or forty persons...

Mod Note: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.




[edit on Thu Mar 19 2009 by Jbird]

Sorry for the lengthy-ness of the previous post, but i just wanted to make the article available to anybody who hasn't yet read it. Pretty interesting, it's not factual evidence by any means but for a city newspaper to post it on the front page, and to have it run 4 pages long and including the Smithsonian....could've really destroyed their credibility.

reply to post by mpriebe81


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Paisley Caves

A field school from the University of Oregon has been examining the site since 2002 and analyzing its pre-Clovis artifacts.[1] In the summer of 2007, they identified the oldest human DNA yet discovered in the American continents. This assertion is based on several samples of coprolite (fossilized excrement) found in the Paisley Caves complex, between Lakeview and Bend, Oregon, on the eastern side of the Cascade mountain range.[2][3][4]


The fossils were found in Paisley Five Mile Point Cave at the same level as a small rock-lined hearth some 7 feet (2 m) below the modern surface. At that level was also discovered a large number of bones from waterfowl, fish, and large mammals including extinct camel and horse. Radiocarbon dating places these coprolites between 12,750 and 14,290 calendar years before the present, probably representing a pre-Clovis occupation. DNA analysis provides apparent genetic ties to Siberia or Asia.[5]

Here is the rest of the article:

gc_ArizonaGazette5April1909.htm

Surrounding this idol are smaller images, some very beautiful in

form; others crooked-necked and distorted shapes, symbolical,

probably, of good and evil. There are two large cactus with

protruding arms, one on each side of the dais on which the god

squats. All this is carved out of hard rock resembling marble. In

the opposite corner of this cross-hall were found tools of all

descriptions, made of copper. These people undoubtedly knew the

lost art of hardening this metal, which has been sought by chemicals

for centureis without result. On a bench running around the

workroom was some charcoal and other material probably used in the

process. There is also slag and stuff similar to matte, showing

that these ancients smelted ores, but so far no trace of where or

how this was done has been discovered, nor the origin of the ore.

...

(shortened quote and added ex tags and link)



[edit on Thu Mar 19 2009 by Jbird]

Originally posted by mpriebe81



from the front page of THE PHOENIX GAZETTE of April 5th, 1909

EXPLORATIONS IN GRAND CANYON

Mysteries of Immense Rich Cavern being brought to light
Jordan is enthused
Remarkable finds indicate ancient people migrated from Orient

Well unfortunately back in the day many Newspapers were more along the lines of tabloids they wanted to sell papers. I think people would be very hard pressed to find good hard collaborating evidence. I'm pretty sure if the Smithsonian was involved somebody got nailed for it for allowing their name to be mentioned.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Nice!!!!! I'm going to be up all night reading all of this stuff now, lol.

Oh well, nothing but schoolwork to do tomorrow anyhow

reply to post by SLAYER69


That could very well be true that it was all BS.
The Smithsonian will very politely tell you that there are no known egyptian artifacts in North or South America, and that this is all a bunch of crap.

However, i've read loads of info. about the Smithsonian destroying or storing artifacts away....who really knows though?

reply to post by mpriebe81


Well I love a good read but I'm still all for the facts of known discoveries and ask hard hitting questions.

Grand Canyon

Native American inhabitation Current archaeological evidence suggests that humans have inhabited the Grand Canyon area as far back as 4,000 years and at least were passers through for 6,500 years before that. Radiocarbon dating of artifacts found in limestone caves in the inner canyon indicate ages of 3,000 to 4,000 years.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Agreed, and thanks again for the links!
I just wish that archaelogists had access to the possible cave system in the Grand Canyon....really bugs me that it's all just blocked off and restricted.

That Olmec art is beautiful btw!!!

[edit on 19-3-2009 by mpriebe81]