The Prostate - A nail in the coffin of ID

Why couldn't anything go wrong? We have free will to choose what we eat, drink, etc. Sometimes to the detriment of our bodies.

If you define the "Intelligent Designer" as God and apply this to Creation, this still won't work. As man is in a fallen state.

We are in a state of Entropy (2nd law of thermodynamics):
Psalms:102:25: Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psalms:102:26: They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed

Or if you prefer that Alien's are the Intelligent Designers then why would they be infallible?

Either way this idea doesn't work.

Seems this thread has taken a philosophical turn, which seems good for a discussion.

I have a problem with ID when it takes a decidely human-centric view, i.e., everything about ID was intended for US, as if somehow the human body was the penultimate 'goal'.

Then there's that slippery slope that feeds iinto the 'young earth' believers, and so forth....which, face it, is just another word for 'creationism'.

Ii wonder if there are biologists or veternarians out there who know if other hominds besides man ever choke to death on their food because of the poor 'design' (ahem) of the trachea, esophagus and epiglottis.

reply to post by ghaleon12


I was discussing this issue with someone off line, in the Real World, and they brought up an interesting point.

Consider:

Breast Uterian Cervical Testical Rectal Prostate and related illnesses. These all have to do with human reproduction and/or waste management, two areas that many US children at least are or were raised being taught that these aspects of humanity are somehow dirty, or shameful.

This person was wondering if there is a link there... we don't for instance see a whole lot of worries about elbow cancer or "benign hand enlargement".

We have, I believe, seen an increase in the "nasty parts" health issues, and we still see the attitudes that my friend was interested in... for example, any night of the week someone can watch all kinds of violence on normal television, but one exposed female nipple is cause for major uproar.

May not be any links, and does beg the question of perfection in design, but an interesting viewpoint, I thought.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Perhaps the 'failure' of the body part is part of the product fitting perfectly into the plans of the intelligent designer.

The reason the body part fails fulfills the bigger design and purpose of the intelligent designer.

If we take this reasoning a step further we could then conclude that, as people have a tendency to fail as they have to succeed as to fail. Then the failure is the result of the creator, creating it, which would tend to negate free wil.

The purpose of life isn't to have a perfectly running body. The purpose is something else all together that requires that body part not to function properly at all times.

We cannot know this, we can equally say that life has no purpose at all only the purpose we give it.

If the creator has designed a purpose to life, then we would have to accept the possibility of failing, if failure is designed as part of life.
Given that this failure is designed ie created for the bigger purpose as you say, then success is not an option thus once again negating free will.

For anyone to say that the purpose of life is this or that seems very arrogant indeed. This is saying that this individual knows the mind of his alleged creator, which is one hell of a statement from someone who cannot prov the existence of this creator.

If however you claim that the purpose is something else but you don't know what it is, to then claim that the purpose requires the body part not to function properly at all time is equally as arrogant as you could not know this either.

Perhaps I'm being a little picky here, perhaps you just forgot to type in "In my opinion" at the end and I've got the wrong end of the stick yes ?

reply to post by B.A.C.


indeed when human health was on the downward slope that point made sense, during say the start of the industrial revolution those poor workers of your standard 'coketown' would be dramatically smaller and shorter lived than their great-grandparents who worked the fields and ate well. However those hard working peons managed to create a stable platform on which our modern society could develop, shortly the 'green revolution' was to increase field productivity and greatly streamline the farming process - this let society worry about proper nutrition and healthy eating, after world war two ends and things like bananas are shipped back in to Britain the average diet became very good, people now are uniformly taller and healthier than their grandfather who fought in the war. However of course we all know this is only among people who eat healthy and exercise -many people don't care about their health and eat fatty foods, etc which leaves them obese and unhealthy.

At the moment by understanding health risks, such as Lead, Mercury, Asbestos and Radon (correct me if i missed it in the bible but i don't remember seeing 'use not the heavy metals for they leech salt upon thy brain' or 'Mine not the hardest rocks among which Diamonds are found for the microscopic hairs are hooklike and will lodge in thy lung causing much pain and death' -if god made it all he could have warned out that he put LOADS of deadly metals, minerals, etc all over the place) we are cutting back the risks of dieing from so many aliments which used to be common, proper sanitation is dealing with all sorts of water born infection and as a result we are much healthier than [almost] any time in our history.

Looking at the remains of people 6000 years ago they weren't as healthy or long lived as us, looking back a little further (sorry, yes we have remains of people older than god's earth!!) most of the remains show people that died very young by our standards. With modern medicine we can expect to eradicate most of the common forms of disability and suffering. most illnesses and genetic issues plus be able to repair most accidental or age related problems to the human frame maybe as soon as the end of this century. Thus you could say that rather than falling apart the human race is pulling itself together by an act of self-will, a further step in the course of evolution.

reply to post by moocowman


How about this ...

IN MY OPINION, it makes sense that there must be some reason that we are not fully aware of for our body parts to fail. That failing is part of a grander design - for another purpose - that we don't know yet.

IN MY OPINION, this is not the final destination but only a step towards something else and therefore it is necessary for bodies to fail here so that the next phase in our being can occur. Therefore 'failure' here is really designed into the process.

Like shifting gears in a car. Why stay in first gear (life here) all the time if you have 3 or 4 or 5 more gears that can move you to your final destination quicker.

IN MY OPINION. There ... how's that. More to your liking?

reply to post by FlyersFan

How about this ... IN MY OPINION, it makes sense that there must be some reason that we are not fully aware of for our body parts to fail. That failing is part of a grander design - for another purpose - that we don't know yet.

That's better lol, however we are aware that our body parts ultimately fail upon death by natural causes.

So from birth we are designed to fail ie our components which make our bodies It's just a matter of when. By this reasoning then, we have never been designed to live as we are born dying, I suppose an evolutionist could call this devolution.

Nevertheless, untold eons of actual "living" has increased our longevity, so it would seem that this process is evolution in action, acting contrary to the designed slow progressive death of a creator.

I think a more interesting argument would be things like schizophrenia and other major mental illnesses that really hinder a person's ability to function. For people that have it really bad and can't really participate in religious or spiritual matters, one has to wonder what purpose they exist for. Similarly I guess to children starving without doing anything in the world, but that's a different topic.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
The implication being that if ID is the predominant influence, then there is nothing to go wrong, because life forms have been designed intelligently...

I believe in Intelligent Design, and I have never asserted any such claim when discussing it with anyone. To do so would be quite ignorant because I can see intelligently designed machines break down all the time.

My computer's motherboard, for example, ceased to function recently and I had to replace it. Just because someone designed it with great intelligence does not mean the product is without flaw. Even though no one wants to create a faulty product there are forces beyond anyone's control. Age is one, and everything tends to deteriorate as they age. It's a simple fact of life.

Cars can get rusty, if not properly maintained, wooden fences can become warped or cracked, paint can begin to peel from your home, and people's bodies just get worn out with age. Again, these are just simple facts. They do not refute ID.

reply to post by ghaleon12


Good point... it seems the argument could be extended to any mal-function of a living being.

reply to post by one_enlightened_mind

Just because someone designed it with great intelligence does not mean the product is without flaw.

However the proponents of of an intelligent creative deity claim that this particular intelligence is without flaw.


If you accept a the intelligent designer is able to create a flaw, the you have to accept the possibility of a flaw in the reasoning that led you to believe there is a creator to begin with.

Originally posted by one_enlightened_mind
I believe in Intelligent Design, and I have never asserted any such claim when discussing it with anyone.

If you were to provide a succinct definition of what Intelligent Design means, that would be appreciated. It is entirely possible I do not have an accurate idea of what its adherants mean by the term.

My computer's motherboard, for example, ceased to function recently and I had to replace it. Just because someone designed it with great intelligence does not mean the product is without flaw. Even though no one wants to create a faulty product there are forces beyond anyone's control. Age is one, and everything tends to deteriorate as they age. It's a simple fact of life.

Cars can get rusty, if not properly maintained, wooden fences can become warped or cracked, paint can begin to peel from your home, and people's bodies just get worn out with age. Again, these are just simple facts. They do not refute ID.

The problem with the examples above are that computers, cars, paint etc are all products of HUMAN designers.

Again, not entirely sure of the nuances of the usage here, but my impression is that the Designer in Intelligent Design is God, right?

And God is not bound by any of the limitations we humans have to deal with. Humans cannot (yet) design new living things at all. Current genetic technology allows modification - in some cases pretty extreme modification - of existing life forms, but as far as I know human genetic technology cannot yet create a brand new, never seen anything like it before life form.

But as I understand the tenets of ID, God did exactly that... created many brand new, never before seen life forms.

My thesis here is that the various afflictions, and in the case of prostates, mis-behavior without anything detectably wrong, indicates that living beings were not intelligently designed at all, at least in their current forms.

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic


Sorry charlie, I already see a flaw in your blame game "theory"

Have you never gotten sick, flu, cold, mumps, measels, etc. Was that bad design too?

I had a swollen prostate, I'm 57yo, 6ft-285lbs. I was getting up to pee 2-3 times a night. That's bad on the adrenals too. I was concerned about having to go thru all the crap til I stumbled on a machine that kills all the disease memory, and pharmaceuticals that are in the water. Shortly after I started drinking that water, I noticed a change. I noticed my bathroom habits were less frequent during the day. But I had to retrain myself at night because my body was used to getting up, it's similar to those who get up everyday at the same time without a clock. The body retains a memory too.

I read where 3 people on dialysis died from fluoride in the water, the filters failed on the machine which is hooked up to the city tap water which people think is safe to drink! Sure, you won't keel over immediately, unless you're in critical condition like those poor folks who died were.

So, there's nothing wrong with the design, you drink crap water, it's gonna effect you somehow.

My skin feels better, my allergies are almost gone, I have no more frequent urination issues and my gums almost completely stopped bleeding, just from the water!

No, I don't sell the machine.

You can keep blaming the Designer if you want, but I'd look elswhere for answers if I were you.

[edit on 18-3-2009 by toasted]

I started thinking about things.....

Eyelashes
Eyebrows
Underarm hair
Groin hair

(hair is seen to be an evolutionary similarity to feathers)

To continue....for men, hair on the back, if hirsute. Hair that grows on, and in the ears.

For men, and women....loss of head hair....tragic for women, devastating for men, sometimes.

The epiglottis....the appendix....our joints, as regards our various limbs....

The knee....the shoulder....

the foot, actually, is a marvel!! It is 'adapted' to help us maintain balance...of course, some of us suffer from 'flat feet'....and the resulting bunions....

Our hands....the epitomy of dexterity. There are an incredible amount of nerves in the fingertips ... this is because of adaptive evolution, not ID...

In my opinion.....

reply to post by toasted


Chill, dude.

This thread is an opportunity for answers, or at least ideas, to be expressed. Or you can jump in and piss and moan and provide no value at all... that's up to you.

No blame game involved on my part.

I just wonder how many people haven't been sick throughout History. But still nothing has changed. We are still humans.

I wonder how many different animals haven't been sick through out History, but still animals are still animals. Nothing has changed.

People either die or they become well ofter they get sick.The same goes for animals they either get well or they die. Or they die with the disease.

There is no evolution in people or animals getting sick.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
reply to post by ghaleon12

 

Good point... it seems the argument could be extended to any mal-function of a living being.

I wouldn't say any malfunction...there are only a few that would seemingly interfere with studying and implementing religious/spiritual studies.

reply to post by spy66


Ah, spy66....you seem to not be familiar with the ability of bacteria to adapt to anti-biotics, when they are over-used....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by spy66

 

Ah, spy66....you seem to not be familiar with the ability of bacteria to adapt to anti-biotics, when they are over-used....

No i am not , Because i am familiar with reality. And humans are still humans and animals are still animals. Nothing has changed ever. Only extinction.

Science can't prove that something has changed kind by mutation. That has never ever been observed by observing animals or humans in our time.

What you can do in a lab and what nature really does are two different things.

Our DNA transfer only makes us look like we do compared to our parents and that tree of DNA. But it has never changed us from not being a human. The DNA transfer and mutation just creates the human shape and functions good or bad depending on the transfer of DNA.

Because when you create another human you have to create it within another human body. And just that point is important to know. That's why we dont change Kind.


And as we age it stops repairing it self until our cells cant support life any more and we die.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
reply to post by toasted

 

Chill, dude.

This thread is an opportunity for answers, or at least ideas, to be expressed. Or you can jump in and piss and moan and provide no value at all... that's up to you.

No blame game involved on my part.

Glad to see you gave my contribution more than a nano-seconds worth of consideration.

In addition there was this about the water as well;

""

Chicago officials have never tested the city and suburban water supply for pharmaceuticals and other unregulated chemicals, ...

So the Tribune and RedEye did the testing the city won't do.

The newspapers hired an independent lab, which found tiny amounts of an anti-seizure drug, a common painkiller, caffeine and two chemicals used to make Teflon and Scotchgard in samples taken from a water supply that serves 7 million people.

Trace concentrations—...collected at City Hall, an elementary school on Chicago's South Side and a public library in Waukegan, which has its own treatment plant.

The Tribune's findings echo what authorities have detected in tap water supplies elsewhere in the country: dozens of prescription and over-the-counter drugs as well as chemicals from personal-care products, food packaging, clothing and household goods. ""

Maybe nobody knows exactly what the precise interactions of all them chemicals in peoples bodies over a long period of time will be, but I think, swollen prostates, and breast cancers and the other things "healthy" people are getting are part of it.

It don't take a rocket scientist, just some common sense.

www.chicagotribune.com...

[edit on 19-3-2009 by toasted]