Why the Chemtrail Conspiracy is Unplausible, and Meteorologically Innacurate

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether


You are freakin awesome there chad... awesome...

Thanks mate! I alwayd knew I was awesome!

Nobody is claiming this and I would say that anyone using statements against like this against knowledgeable people is an idiot.

No one is claiming it? Are you sure?

Better tell all these people that then!

I Don't Want to Believe... Chemtrails, 03/10/2009, Sunnyvale, CA, Pics.

Massive Chemtrails Over LA??? Pictures!!

Chemtrails over NY/NJ???? Why so many?

Blatant Chemtrail Spraying in Vancouver, British Columbia

More Chemtrails Over Chattanooga, Tn- 56k beware

Chemtrails over Kent

Chemtrails over downtown of Knoxville, TN (PICS)

Chemtrails Over Chattanooga, TN (Warning, Big Pics)

Chemtrails Over Portland OR 23/11/08

Chemtrail Halo Victoria BC 18/11/2008

Then there is the best of all in the groups fight against logic.... Why bother doing this when all the chemicals are being emitted at ground level... The fact that you guys can ask a question... WHY would they do that? Does it makes sense? NO so they must not be doing it... You guys have the answers to all the questions don't you...

Did you check out those levels yourself there chad or do you have a personal friend that verified the data you have?

Awesome

Not sure what you want me to say here...All I'm trying to show is a different angle on how chemicals get into ground sources.

The sites I've linked to have NOTHING to do with chemtrails or contrails, so it is an UNBIASED source.


What unbiased sources can you provide?



Awesome indeed

reply to post by OzWeatherman


All generalities and leads to nothing in the way of proof.... As I've stated earlier in prior threads, I've worked with numerous Meteorological Technicians, check my prior posts... Just like you said.... Trust me... I know.... I don't even have weatherman in my name and I have the training...

I've had experience setting off weather balloons and doing the readings. Taking the wx and putting into TTAA/BB wx format etc. I know WMO wx format and that doesn't do squat to what we are talking about. Your readings of humidity do nothing to prove that the aircraft we are seeing are at your precise flight level and showing contrails. Your OP and all the data you've provided just leads to a confused person scratching his head and wondering what it means.... I'll tell you what the data you provided means... Nothing. Absolutely zilch in the knowledge department.

All the photos of WWII aircraft show smoke coming out of the engines... You will notice that any photo provided doesn't show it from the same vantage point that all the verified 'Chemtrail' photos are from... Kind of like comparing apples to oranges.... I guess you wouldn't notice...

Your OP is full of fluff so that most of the uninformed viewers would get sick of weeding through it that they would not even attempt it.... All they have to do is look to the posts that actually provide valid data..... There is only a few of us providing this valid data and your not one of them Oz.

Originally posted by doctordoom
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

What is your point of being on a conspiracy site??

To lead the people to their death. You are guilty.

Oh my is the moon full today? You decry the skeptics and instead of putting forth facts etc. you instead resort to the tried and true ad hominum with a side order of strawman.

Without skeptics to keep you honest you are really just doing the equivilent of intellectual (thats debatable) masturbation.

Turn about is fair play IMHO


What are YOU doing at ATS????

ATS is open to all thoughts and opinions not just your cherished ones.

reply to post by defcon5

And these are chemtrails:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/6d8532d68b03b585.jpg[/atsimg]

Got it?

Why can't the debunkers show me a still from a pre-1998 film, TV program or commercial with a background that looks like this? (not just a random contrail in the background -- MULTIPLE "persistent contrails")

I'd like to throw in my two bobs worth.

I can never understand the chemtrailers point of view that the PTB or whoever are trying to poison us, or control us, whatever, by spraying chemicals into the air above.

Does anyone realize the amount of chemicals being ingested with additives to foods? Seriously, there is no need to spray us with chemicals, we eat untold amounts of the stuff everyday. I dont think there is a person in the western developed countries that doesn't eat untold amounts of chemicals on a daily basis.

I dont want to derail the thread from its original topic, I just wanted to state that spraying us with chemicals, for whatever reason, is futile. Our hungry mouths are wide open for any chemical they wish for us to ingest.

Why do in the open, what you can do in secret?

Originally posted by Zepherian
2) It has become apparent to quite a few of us posting here that disinformation is indeed being peddled on ATS. And not just by Obama or McCain supporters, but in actual topics of importance, especially things like chemtrails, where the threshold of reality is pretty close to the average sheep. So I don't think we'll ever have this debate without the acusational tone, because quite frankly it's almost impossible that some of these people, by their persistance in debunking, by their blindness to any and all information against their position, by their dishonest tricks, could be anything else but paid disinformation agents. As you should know it is now public knowledge that disinformation operations on the internet are indeed state (and corporate) funded and ongoing, so the reality of this sad situation is more or less solid. Besides, they are easy to spot, as they rarely add anything, rather go around focusing the same few arguments on a few key topics.

AH yes...
The Arch typical Chemtrail debate.
It goes like this...

[Chemtrail Believer] I saw a cloud in the sky that a plane sprayed. Here is a Photo...
[Skeptic/Professional]You saw this: Link to Atmospheric Data about contrails.
[Believer] No it was SPRAYED by the plane because it had a break in the trail.
[Skeptic/Professional] No what you saw was this. Link to Facts about Atmospheric Conditions.
[Believer] They made big X's in the sky, and had to be intentional.
[Skeptic/Professional] No what you saw was this. Link to Facts about ATC.
[Believer] But I never saw these before 1995.
[Skeptic/Professional] Link to proof that they existed prior to 1995.
[believer] But they admit to seeding clouds.
[Skeptic/Professional] Cloud Seeding is different. Link to what Cloud Seeding is.
[believer] But the Germans admitted to using chaff.
[Skeptic/Professional] Link to what chaff is.
[Believer] Its definitely the Military.
[Skeptic/Professional] Link to ATC rules on Military Flights over US.
[Believer] HR 2977!
[Skeptic/Professional] Link to facts that it was privately written by a citizen not the House.
[Believer] You're a Government Debunker, I have provided facts and you just debunk them with speculation, because I know what I saw and nothing is going to dissuade me from that.

New Thread:
[Chemtrail Believer] I saw a cloud in the sky that a plane sprayed. Here is a Photo...

Add-Infinitum.........
So yes, there are two sides, the ones with knowledge who provide facts, and the side that believe in Chemtrails.

Those that know about the chemtrail program in the aerospace industry WILL NOT TALK ABOUT IT . It comes under official secrets and the penalties for blabbing are very sever .
The euphemism that many retired military will use for chemtrailing to avoid trouble is 'SOAPY RAIN ' .

An aquaintance of mine forgot himself and started to express his disgust about the program having forgoten my security clearance was not high enough. He panicked as well he might ,then made a hasty retraction of everything he had just said.

Chemtrailing has many uses not the least of which is 'smoking out ' cloaked aerial craft . Where I live ,close to a major OZ naval air base , you can actually see the exact moment when the chem is switched on as the aircraft passes over . Unlike water vapour which usually disipates very quickly , the chem 'sticks' and spreads out over the sky .

I would imagine it is the detergents in this 'soapy rain' that help disperse and spread the particulate matter .

The ADF has some very advanced anti grav craft here . Anyone who lives around here long enough will see them eventually . They are something of an open secret really . They DO have cloaking technology as well , so it may be that some chemtrailing is harmless and part of pilot training in avoiding cloaked detection during exercises .
Understand how it works . If an invisible man enters your room and you dont want his presence to go undetected ,what would you do ? Light a ciggarette and wait to see if anything disturbs the smoke . same principal is used in wind tunnel testing to make turbulence around a test model aircraft visible . Common sense people, its just common sense .

Unlike the armed forces of the US and UK the ADF has a bit more of a relaxed attitude to official secrets because so often the 'official denials' just make the ADF look stupid in the face of sober civilian witnessess .
So instead of the laughable cover stories you will, on enquiry, get a knowing smile and often a cleverly constructed admission which is just a little to vague to upset the goons in the political sections of military intellligence . You know, like the ones who get paid to post here .

There are good and bad reasons for chemtrailing.

The reason why WW2 aircraft contrails were so sticky is because they did not burn fuel as cleanly as modern jets and the lead based ignition improvers were also a factor . Othere factors affecting contrail visibilty are altitude ,air temperature, wind speed ,aircraft engine type , exhaust gas dispersion and so on.

The truth lies somewhere between the desperate denials and some of the more extreme paranoia of the conspiracy theorists .

The Germans were not the only ones testing anti grav craft towards the end of the war . The Brits had a very advanced program themselves . How else would they know what to look for when the Germans were developing nuke capable v2's ? Anti grav capability can be retrofitted to any modern fighter jet . Sometimes they will show it off at airshows but most people do not see it for what it is . But I for one know for a fact that if you knife edge an f18 at below stalling speed at half tree top height it would ordinarily ,fall out of the sky very quickly . this one did not .

Chem can work a lot like chaf but often its used to try and see whats not supposed to be there as opposed to making the enemy see something on radar that is just a 'phantom' formation.

Camouflage and hiding your dispositions from the enemy is the stock in trade of war craft . Politics and business is also more often than not ,warfare . Politicians blow smoke all the time. But instead of chemtrailing its called lies .

So next time you light a ciggie , run your hand through that smoke and watch the turbulence . Personally , I love turbulating the deniers on this forum. You get more smoke and flame as they try to disguise the common sense truth. When you cant see the truth for the fog ,you have to observe the way the fog turbulates to get an idea of whats being hidden from you.

I am not the weatherman , but I am one of the weather gods .

Or like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/da0107b1b90dcb80.jpg[/atsimg]

(from my back yard in the southwest U.S. where the atmosphere at that altitude is too warm and arid for contrails to even form.)


reply to post by Burginthorn

Yes, there are chemicals in the food. So why do they poison the water with fluoride or put mercury in dental fillings and vaccines?

Who knows why they're injecting barium and aluminum oxides in the atmosphere? Whatever the reason, I'm sure it's not good for you.

I resent the paid shills and disinfo agents who spend their lives trying to convince people that chemtrails don't exist.

They'll say anything to get you to believe that water vapor can persist and spread out for hours to completely obliterate a clear blue sky. Yeah, right.

If chemtrails don't exist, then why are they mentioned in the ATS Conspiracy Poll?

[edit on 16-3-2009 by GoldenFleece]

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
And these are chemtrails:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/6d8532d68b03b585.jpg[/atsimg]
Got it?

No, that is a photoshop job...
So now you stoop to show us doctored pictures and call that any kind of proof?
Nice..

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Why can't the debunkers show me a still from a pre-1998 film, TV program or commercial with a background that looks like this?

I provided quotes to where you can find these types of bloopers in movies, that is sufficient. Are you saying the folks at Movies Bloopers sites are in on it too? If I pull screen shots will that be the end of this Cloverleaf crap, or will you just find another excuse to continue on? I do own several of those movies on DVD and I can take screen-shots I suppose.

reply to post by Chadwickus


You see chad, I don't need to provide an UNbiased source for anything that you've provided, because you haven't provided anything that needs explaining. I provided proof that the government put the fact that they acknowledge 'Chemtrails' in one of their own bills..... Now you go ahead and try to debunk that document by the US government and tell me why they would mention 'chemtrails' if they don't exist.

You see, this is the kind of thing that you should be debunking.... not the useless fluff that your referring to... has nothing to do with what is being used for data. Now if you want to talk about the levels of 'barium' etc that are being used in chemtrails to alter the WX then yes you have something to discuss but the levels that are being admitted to on the ground have nothing to do with what they are releasing into the atmosphere from aircraft. So please don't quote me those barium levels again and again and again.... they are nothing but fluff. Try providing valid... VALID data that will go against what we are saying... As with all of your group you have failed in any attempt to show that CHEMTRAILS are non existent. They exist and are extremely evident almost every day over every city...

Here's a page that is listed CONTRAILS... Just for you... If you notice (probably won't) but in all the data provided on that site you can find that the 'Barium' works in conjunction with the HAARP txtr in Alaska and can be used for radar imaging.... That's why you have the WX radar images being affected....

You are so awesome. in your mind...

Rgds


Mod Note: Courtesy Is Mandatory – Please Review This Link.

Please address the issue at hand and refrain from attacking/insulting fellow members.



[edit on 3/16/2009 by maria_stardust]

reply to post by AllTiedTogether




The bill by Dennis Kucinich?

I'll post a quote from another thread to help explain that:

Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by stardust1955
I've been watching this since yesterday, there must be some counter-unintelligence here.

It is called "Project Cloverleaf", and yes it is real and Dennis Kucinich even had a bill in Congress in 2001, "HR 2977 IH.

"Project Cloverleaf". Some evidence that it does or ever existed? Oh, nevermind, you of course have none because it's so secret (but plastered all over the internet by name).

HR 2977 was written by others and presented to Kucinich as a bill:

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.

After he introduced the bill, Kucinich learned that it contained language regarding "chemtrails" and other "exotic weapons". He promptly retracted the bill.

You're presenting nothing new here, it's been done over...and over...and over...and over again.




Oh and HAARP does all it's work in the ionosphere and I believe the barium test was performed with rockets, because as any school aged child knows, airplane engines need oxygen to fly, something the ionosphere has very little of.


[edit on 16-3-2009 by Chadwickus]

Originally posted by reconpilot
Those that know about the chemtrail program in the aerospace industry WILL NOT TALK ABOUT IT . It comes under official secrets and the penalties for blabbing are very sever .

Thanks for that it was the best laugh I have had all night, I almost choked on my drink.

Civilian Aviation is held to no such requirements, and the majority of these trails are in fact left by civilian airliners. I was a Civilian Airline Employee, and I can talk about anything I want to, other then airport/aircraft security. To be honest I was never even told that I could not talk about security, but since I don't want to be responsible for anything bad happening, I just don't. I never signed any type of nondisclosure agreement with anyone.

As to the military, they do not use as much of the sky as civilians do, but when they do share the sky together they have to announce that to the civilian sector. They can only operate without restrictions over places that are established as Military Operations Areas, otherwise they have to give fair notice to other pilots that they plan to use a section of sky. When they do this, they file a Temporary Flight Restriction, and a Notice to Airmen. Otherwise they have to follow the same rules as civilian traffic when in civilian areas, including filing an IFR Flight Plan. So guess what....
It ain't them either.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Why can't the debunkers show me a still from a pre-1998 film, TV program or commercial with a background that looks like this?

I provided quotes to where you can find these types of bloopers in movies, that is sufficient.

Quotes? BFD. If you're gonna spend half your life trying to debunk chemtrails, let's see a screen shots from ANY pre-1998 film, TV show or commercial that shows these "persistent contrails" in the background. NOT a Hollywood SFX sequence.

Is that really asking too much? Put up or shut up.

Mod Note: Courtesy Is Mandatory – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 3/16/2009 by maria_stardust]

I pose a question to the chemtrail believers.

If there is so much evidence that they (chemtrails) exist such as what you post here and claim is proof, why not take this "proof" and go to the media or police and report it. Or better yet, get together and file a class action lawsuit against the government with the evidence you have?

Considering how important it is to you that your "truth" come out, wouldn't that be a better use of your time and energy rather than posting on a conspiracy web site?

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

All generalities and leads to nothing in the way of proof.... As I've stated earlier in prior threads, I've worked with numerous Meteorological Technicians, check my prior posts... Just like you said.... Trust me... I know.... I don't even have weatherman in my name and I have the training...

Ok, my turn, where and by whom were you trained

I've had experience setting off weather balloons and doing the readings. Taking the wx and putting into TTAA/BB wx format etc. I know WMO wx format and that doesn't do squat to what we are talking about.

Ok, how about I provide you my 23z flight from this morning, and you code that manually into a TTAA, TTBB, TTCC and a TTDD fromat, and then code it in its PPAA and PPBB format, and then do it with my 17z wind flight (PPAA and PPBB)

Your readings of humidity do nothing to prove that the aircraft we are seeing are at your precise flight level and showing contrails.

The readings of humidity recorded by the sonde prove when conditions are right for contrails and/ or persistent contrails to occur. And given that the data samples pass through the elevation that planes fly at, from over 1000hPa to higher than 70hPa, then yes, they do prove that contrails are able to observed at certain flights

Your OP and all the data you've provided just leads to a confused person scratching his head and wondering what it means.... I'll tell you what the data you provided means... Nothing. Absolutely zilch in the knowledge department.

Yes, 8 rounds of applause from the staff prove that dont they, as do the 29 flags.....sorry to bring that up but obviosuly everyone else understands the language I used

All the photos of WWII aircraft show smoke coming out of the engines... You will notice that any photo provided doesn't show it from the same vantage point that all the verified 'Chemtrail' photos are from... Kind of like comparing apples to oranges.... I guess you wouldn't notice...

So if I saw a car 500 metres away that was red, and got closer and it was still red....because it was a different vantage point, my original observations wouldnt count?

Think about it

Your OP is full of fluff so that most of the uninformed viewers would get sick of weeding through it that they would not even attempt it.... All they have to do is look to the posts that actually provide valid data..... There is only a few of us providing this valid data and your not one of them Oz.

Valid data? Recognised by Cliff Carnicom, Rense and other such non educated, self appointed scientists?

And since when does, I know what I saw, and it was a chemtrail, and a youtubve video count towards data?

Like I said before, show me some data that points towards it not being the process of water vapour, sublimating into ice..... from a credible source....




[edit on 16/3/2009 by OzWeatherman]

reply to post by Chadwickus


First off your reply is a reply and just that... It's not an answer it's fluff... They mentioned it in the bill and I also heard Kucinich use the word during his speech to congress... You've proven nothing... and besides one of your 'group' already made the point of mentioning how bad it is to quote another thread as proof.... Please follow the rules of this debate thing will ya...

reply to post by defcon5

Thanks for that it was the best laugh I have had all night, I almost choked on my drink.

Civilian Aviation is held to no such requirements, and the majority of these trails are in fact left by civilian airliners. I was a Civilian Airline Employee, and I can talk about anything I want to, other then airport/aircraft security. To be honest I was never even told that I could not talk about security, but since I don't want to be responsible for anything bad happening, I just don't. I never signed any type of nondisclosure agreement with anyone.

Thanks for that! It was the funniest thing I've heard all night... I almost choked on my coffee....

Ever hear of the TSA? They are the ones that secure the airlines in the US. Security! Here is a site that might show how ridiculous that statement is coming from someone that claims to have worked for the CA. If you can talk about anything you want to its because they haven't told you anything that is worth releasing. Need-To-Know... You haven't the need so you don't know..... When they do tell you something you will sign some type of agreement.

reply to post by QBSneak000

KNBC-4 Los Angeles: Toxic Sky, Part 1

[color=darkblue]Chemtrails Are Over Las Vegas
by Marcus K. Dalton
Tribune Media Group

Editor's Note: Las Vegas residents are increasingly noticing the appearance of chemical trails overhead. They appear EVERY weekend without fail, the only exception being the two weeks after September 11, 2001. Such "chemtrails" are substantially different in appearance to the normal condensation trails left by jet airliners. The difference is that while condensation trails are composed of water vapor that dissipates rapidly, "chemtrails" linger much longer and spread out over time to eventually cover the sky with a thin haze. This week the Las Vegas Tribune begins a two-part article to examine the undeniable and mysterious phenomena of Chemtrails Over Las Vegas.

Is there any amount of press coverage that would convince you?

Or do you need the corporate-controlled media to tell you what's true and what's not?

[edit on 16-3-2009 by GoldenFleece]

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


A quick google shows this page:

contrailscience.com...

One of the more pervasive myths regarding “chemtrails” is that current presidential candidate Dennis Kuchinich tried to have them banned by an act of congress, but was pressured by the government to modify the act to remove the mention of “chemtrails”. So what really happened? In a nutshell, Kucinich did not write the bill (or read it, until too late), the focus of the bill is nothing to do with chemtrails, it was written by UFO enthusiasts trying to: 1. Nullify a vast conspiracy by the “military-industrial complex” 2. Allow the use of suppressed alien technology for free energy 3. Avoid accidentally shooting down (or scaring away) visiting aliens. They listed a bunch of weird weapons, including mind control, tectonic weapons and (very briefly) chemtrails. The bill was re-written several time in less unusual language to give it chance of passing, but ultimately fizzled in committee.

No doubt it's all fluff to you too, but it helps to deny ignorance and actually investigate the things you believe in, because there are a lot of chemtrailers out there who are quite happy to twist any little thing around to suit their agenda.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Quotes? BFD. If you're gonna spend half your life trying to debunk chemtrails, let's see a screen shots from ANY pre-1998 film, TV show or commercial that shows these "persistent contrails" in the background. NOT a Hollywood SFX sequence.

Well here are two shots of a persistent contrail from the 1970 movie Patton:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3100199a0b14.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/66c65a12bde2.jpg[/atsimg]

I'll have to find more, and learn how to link through media portal later, I have to run for a few minutes now though.

Enjoy expalining that...


Edit, got the Media thing working

[edit on 3/16/2009 by defcon5]

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
Thanks for that! It was the funniest thing I've heard all night... I almost choked on my coffee....

Ever hear of the TSA? They are the ones that secure the airlines in the US. Security! Here is a site that might show how ridiculous that statement is coming from someone that claims to have worked for the CA. If you can talk about anything you want to its because they haven't told you anything that is worth releasing. Need-To-Know... You haven't the need so you don't know..... When they do tell you something you will sign some type of agreement.

Thank you for showing us that you have zero clue of what you are talking about.
First the TSA has only existed since 2001, I worked there in 2000 at the latest. Secondly they have nothing to do with ramp security, nor with flight plans. Ramp Security is provided by the airport police department. All TSA does is screen passengers. The TSA does not even carry badges allowing them access to the Ramp, or anywhere truly secure. TSA is passenger security, and the security I am talking about is the real security, as to who could access my ramp, the bag-well, my aircraft, etc...

Do not try to lecture me sir, you will find I am the real deal, and I have done exactly what I state I have. If you do, you will be shown to be incorrect every time.