Obama is too Socialist for Europe’s taste!

Originally posted by neo67
all those were before the transition to more socialism system

European socialism was at its peak at the start of the last century... not this one.

so what have they done lately.?

What? Thats not enough to make a difference to the world?

What has the US invented lately Where is this thread going?

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by neo67
all those were before the transition to more socialism system

European socialism was at its peak at the start of the last century... not this one.

so what have they done lately.?

What? Thats not enough to make a difference to the world?

What has the US invented lately

Where is this thread going?

was i talking to you dermo? no

what has the us done? your using it right now. and if thats not good enough for you oh well.

we have established already you love socialism i am moving on.

Originally posted by neo67

was i talking to you dermo? no

What? Are you insane or something?

we have established already you love socialism i am moving on.

Have a nice life.

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by neo67

was i talking to you dermo? no

What? Are you insane or something?

we have established already you love socialism i am moving on.

Have a nice life.

just kidding man my family is from ireland.

Originally posted by neo67

just kidding man my family is from ireland.

Man, this has been a fairly random conversation

Originally posted by neo67
taking money away from someone who works for their money and gives it to someone too lazy to work is socialism.

Can you point to any socialist literature that actually states what you describe as being 'socialism'? I'm not talking about misunderstandings of socialist theories based on second-hand scaremongering - which often have their roots in McCarthyism anyway.

i dont get why people get so defensive at the word socialism. [edit on 14-3-2009 by neo67]

As a socialist, it's because I don't like seeing the word used in such bizarre contexts or used wrongly.

reply to post by Dermo


Not sure if I understand what you're saying, but if the American government is going to rack up debt via the stimulus package, all the "benefit" from that debt better go to helping Americans, hence the "Buy American" clause. We aren't going to rack up debt to stimulate someone elses' economy. But if other countries were to follow suit with a stimulus package of their own, then we wouldn't have to "Buy American" since part of the debt other countries would rack up would be used to buy our products.

Originally posted by ghaleon12
reply to post by Dermo

 

Not sure if I understand what you're saying, but if the American government is going to rack up debt via the stimulus package, all the "benefit" from that debt better go to helping Americans, hence the "Buy American" clause. We aren't going to rack up debt to stimulate someone elses' economy. But if other countries were to follow suit with a stimulus package of their own, then we wouldn't have to "Buy American" since part of the debt other countries would rack up would be used to buy our products.

Historically speaking.. protectionism.. which is a socialist measure by the way.. has been proven to be inadequate to stimulate growth past the point of stability.. it actually stagnates growth completely as the countries who have been hard done by in the process attempt to return the gesture and foreign relations suffers for years.

The thing is.. and this point has been missed in so many threads on the subject.. most EU countries don't need to bring in massive stimulus packages because toxic assets haven't crippled most of their financial systems in the same way as has happened to a number of US financial institutions.. > Why would a country that is not in a recession.. give billions to toward a stimulus package that will probably end up damaging their economy in the mid term?

Toxic assets have not become a massive issue in the Eurozone.. simply because overall property prices have not dropped enough... thats it in a nutshell.

Look at this from a perspective of the shoe being on the other foot and the EU having dumped trillions of EUROS into the world economy (in a scenario where the EURO is the worlds reserve and basically 'devaulable' and the dollar is not in the same situation) and asking the US to do the same where the US is not in anywhere as much difficulty in overall debt to capital ratio...

It doesn't make sense.. in any way.. full stop.

Also.. the majority of corporations that are in trouble in the EU are actually US owned..

I can understand the argument that the EU should help bailout these business's but would the US do the same in the situation? No!! It does not make sense in a capitalist environment where profit is going to another country!

Across the globe.. this is viewed as a US problem and mess that has transferred cross market through dodgy investment deals and shoddy management of global corporations. While it is obviously a global problem and an EU problem, you have to remember this simple point.. and don't get offensive over it.. its a pretty correct observation.. and its the mindset of most EU leaders..




That this problem wouldn't have occurred with the same ferocity if the US system was regulated as it is in the EU..


The other end of the argument is that we would be ten years behind in development in the US used the EU system.

6 of one.. half dozen of the other... we're still after being put back ten years..




Finally.. the reason for the uproar about the "Buy American Clause" is because of the WTO agreement. Obviously this is extremely important for the US is more ways than are evident because as soon as it was brought up.. Obama stepped back from the 'Buy American Clause' instantly. There is obviously more to it than meets the eye so there is no point in really debating it or its consequences without knowing the full story..

The WTO is based on fair trade. If one side decides to put money out into the world (via a US stimulus bill) and the other sides don't reciprocate, that isn't fair. If things were left as they are, and no stimulus money was given out by any country, then that is fair and balanced. But if one country puts up their own money, and the other countries don't use their own money and put on debt, then that country (the US in this case) should be able to spend it where they want.

It's like if I decide to give $20 to my kids. With the way the EU wants it, they think they should get $5 for doing nothing and sacrificing nothing. If the EU also gave $20 bucks to their kids, and the US got 5 bucks, that is a fair trade and balanced and there wouldn't be a need to be protectionist over the stimulus money. And this isn't blanket protectionism, just over the stimulus money, doesn't apply to anything else.

I've heard some bad things economy-wise from all over the world. But if your economies over their are fine, then why do you want our stimulus money? lol. It really isn't just a US problem though...its really showing a global weakness. One of the countries over there lent out money x30 about whereas over here its only x9, so it's not all about the US...Greed is a multicultural phenomenon.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

Originally posted by ghaleon12
The WTO is based on fair trade. If one side decides to put money out into the world (via a US stimulus bill) and the other sides don't reciprocate, that isn't fair.

Man.. you have this all screwed up.

The WTO is nothing to do with stimulus.. Absolutely nothing.. its deeper trade agreements. It doesn't even fall into the same category.

With the way the EU wants it, they think they should get $5 for doing nothing and sacrificing nothing.

How? This is what I don't get from Americans opinions.. how am I supposed to benefit from your stimulus package? Please explain that to me...

And this isn't blanket protectionism, just over the stimulus money, doesn't apply to anything else.

The protectionism I was talking about was over the coal/steel thing from recently.

But if your economies over their are fine,

Ffs.. who said they were fine..? I said they hadn't succumbed to trillions of euro's in toxic assets whereas US financial institutions have.. thats where the worlds bailout money went... into toxic assets. EU property market didn't slump that much overall.. the US did. Thats where the majority of US money disappeared.. property investments and banking property portfolios lent to middle class investors.. and lets not forget the whole SUBPRIME thing.

then why do you want our stimulus money?

Ffs.. how are the EU looking for the US stimulus money? Where did this ridiculous idea come from?
Explain this to me with some sense of reality please because all people say on this site is that i ( an EU citizen) am supposed to be looking for your stimulus money. How? Why? When? What are you on about?

lol. It really isn't just a US problem though...its really showing a global weakness. One of the countries over there lent out money x30 about whereas over here its only x9, so it's not all about the US...Greed is a multicultural phenomenon.

Again.. TOXIC ASSETS.. read my post again.



Finally.. simple facts.

The fact that the fiat Dollar is the worlds reserve since the 70's has boosted US growth when it should not have been growing at that rate.

The dollar can be printed and printed and printed and debt sold to other countries because of what it is.. WE DONT USE THE DOLLAR.. THE DOLLAR IS ALMOST WORTHLESS HERE.. and the EURO is not a reserve so we cant go printing a trillion euro's for a stimulus because

1. Its against EU law
2. It would screw up the currency completely.

How is this so hard to understand?

How are we getting your stimulus money?

How are you still listening to the bull# that your idiot MSM entertainment economists and misinformed bigots are telling you about the world?

[edit on 16/3/09 by Dermo]

In risk of a one-liner, nice one Dermo You said all the stuff I would have wanted to post

a socialist america could only mean one thing.... you know what i mean