Which Rifle makes a better Sniper Rifle?

reply to post by backyard guru


The one in Rambo 4, whatever gun that was.

But, in my personal advice, I would carry what Rambo carried in that (God-awful!) film.

1. bow and arrow
2. a mini-nuke (yes, he mini-nukes everyone with a claymore, it is quite humorous...not to give it away, sorry)
3. 50-cal machine gun (which you just waltz up upon in the forest; yah, that was unexpected!)

But, yeah, I've played GTA Vice City and that game had a laser scope and was semi-auto. It was the best. And when GTA San Andreas came out they left the laser-scope out of the game, to my ire.

A sniper rifle with a laser scope is best.

Kar98

Another cute little line.

reply to post by semperfortis

Look closely and you will see the 06 shoots flatter, especially at longer ranges.. Makes sense as they have the same size bullet, just the 06 has a larger shell casing and more powder.. However for all practical purposes, the Ballistic Coefficient is identical..
Semper

Mr S/F, I have some questions. First off, background. As an Air Force type I went to the firing range once in my AF career. Shot an off the rack M1 Carbine, got a Marksman score which was dutifully enrolled on my 201 form. AF types are not - well, not in 1964, my last discharge year - allowed to wear shooting badges on their uniforms. But it's on the record.

Over my lifetime I have owned about 40 firearms but never a center fire rifle. I had 1 Remington 1100 and 1 Browning semi-auto .22 breakdown rifle. The other guns were hand guns including a lot of WW2 .45 cal. 1911A1s. I had one chance to buy a working P08 Luger but I missed it. I’m down now to a Beretta Mod 79S .22 pistol. Perhaps my favorite handgun tuned out to be the Star PD .45 cal. I do have a CCW permit but I am also a PRO gun control person.

Having said all that, I have enjoyed many hours reading over ballistic tables. I’m amazed at the muzzle energy of the new .50 cal pistols. OTOH, how much larger is a .50 cal than the old Dirty Harry .44 Magnum? Answer, 0.06 inches. 1/16th of an inch. Not much really. (But squaring the bore to get a rough estimate of the relative power of any firearm compared to another gives the new gun a 2,500 score versus the Dirty Harry score of 1,936. And that’s a 29% increase!)

MY QUESTION relates to the use of the terms FLAT and DROP to describe the trajectory of any bullet in flight. Back in my early days, the .220 Swift was the fastest muzzle velocity cartridge off the shelf. The only round then available with over 4,000 ft per sec. velocity at the muzzle.

I am also aware of the law of physics of a bullet which is often recited as, “If you drop an exact duplicate bullet from the same height at the same time the fired bullet exits the perfectly level barrel, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time.”

This says to me all bullet trajectory curves are the same. Any trajectory can be calculated by a formula that depends only on the muzzle velocity. It is intuitive that the higher the exit velocity, the further the bullet will travel before touching down to earth. That’s because gravity acts on the bullet in an even or equal way all during its flight time. The DROP curve of any bullets of the same muzzle velocity should be the same.

Knowing that is not the case, then what other factors effect the flight of a bullet? It must be the aerodynamics of the individual bullet design. It is also intuitive that the longer in time is the bullet’s flight, the more effect aerodynamics will play as opposed to gravity which is constant.

Due to the nature of the mission of bullets, the designer is limited to a very few characteristics he or she can alter to achieve some specific goal. Somewhat like the financial world where I think every person has the same goal, maximum gain with minimum risk, so also every bullet designer must want to achieve maximum range with minium drop rate. So can he make a bullet fly?

Inasmuch as the bullet is spinning - I do no know at what rate - that fact - spin - seems to rule out the external shape of the bullet having any effect on its trajectory curve.

The only variable I can see having any effect on the FLATNESS or DROP rate of any bullet is the center of gravity of the bullet. But even that potentially variable factor seems to me to be necessarily fixed and in reality, not a variable. I’m thinking the center of gravity must also correspond to the “aerodynamic” center of a bullet to assure a predicable flight path. If those 2 "centers" were not exactly the same, the bullet would tend to tumble or skip as it flies its course. IMO.

I know there are different bullet shapes available but I’m wondering if bullet shape really plays any role in trajectory? Does one bullet have a “FLATTER” trajectory curve than another? If yes, then can that be explained if what I have written above is true. What factor(s) have I left out of my description of bullets in flight? Thanks.

Epilogue. After re-reading my paper above it occurs to me the reason for variations in the flight path relate to the sights on the firearm. Because all bullets do drop due to gravity, the sight elevates the firearm from the level to off-set the effects of gravity. The longer the range, the more the elevation. The effect of gravity is constant. As Galileo showed, the weight of the bullet has no effect on its rate of fall due to gravity. Only distance to target and gravity would effect the trajectory.

[edit on 3/21/2009 by donwhite]

06 bolt action with a flip scope for short and long range and my fsvorite.
Grandpa's oct. barrel 30-30 lever.
and a .22 that uses snubs to LR in any sequence, and 12 Guage.

If you plan on shooting for food, a .270 or 06 is way enough, unless in big bear country.

why waste a kill with high caliber? Most likely, if your target is over 500M you'd probably do no better with a 308 without much practice, and over 1200M without spotter.

Too much baggage for the woods. Plains? good luck. won't catch me there. I'll be hunkered down on a pass somewhere like the Donnors did one winter.

How would a 223 fare?I have heard good things about this rifle from someone who knows hunting at a far distance.

There is no better rifle.
Its like asking whats the better girl.
Its what you like, that's the way it is.
308 works always.

7 mag will work for long range, so will 270 WSM, 308.

The 7 mag is awesome. My assistant Manger has one, zero at 100yds and he will hold dead on out to 500yds +. Same thing with the 270 WSM. Now he does had his scope set to infinity.

He took a deer running at 500yds with a 25-06. A lot has to do with the man holding the rifle.

Optics, Check out the Barska line. One son has a 10-40x50, one a 6-24x44 and I have a 8-32x50. My sons are tactical models, mine is a range finding model.

Roper

Originally posted by Roper
7 mag will work for long range, so will 270 WSM, 308.

The 7 mag is awesome. My assistant Manger has one, zero at 100yds and he will hold dead on out to 500yds +. Same thing with the 270 WSM. Now he does had his scope set to infinity.

He took a deer running at 500yds with a 25-06. A lot has to do with the man holding the rifle.

Optics, Check out the Barska line. One son has a 10-40x50, one a 6-24x44 and I have a 8-32x50. My sons are tactical models, mine is a range finding model.

Roper

Sorry to say that there is no rifle cartidge that allows you to hold dead on at 500 yards with a zero at 100. Your being fluffed. Argue all you want, I can always post ballistic charts for you.

To the poster questioning bullet shapes, yes it matters. The shape and corresponding Ballistic Coeficient play a huge role in how fast the bullet slows down in flight as well as how much energy it has downrange. The bullets ability to "buck the wind" is soley due to it's BC. You can fire 2 rounds equal in weight and velocity but different in BC and you will have 2 very different drop rates.

As to the comment on wasting game with an over powered cartidge, the trick is to know where to shoot an animal so as to not waste meat. 2 inches behind the shoulder bend of any ruminant will kill it dead to rights with damage only done to the ribs and vitals.

I agree with Semper on P.1.

You're looking for a model 700 chambered in .308. You only really want the action from that... the rest is junk.

Get in touch with one of two barrel manufacturers: Hart or Schneider. You're looking for a 24" burnished stainless barrel with a 1/12 R twist.

Next, you'll be having a gunsmith or machinist drill for your scope. Not sure what is "stock", Go with what you like and are comfortable with.

Same with the stock. The factory stock allows a bit too much barrel drift. Full fiberglass is best, but you're looking at some money there.

Do all this, and you've basically got a custom built, civilian version of the M40A1 (Hart barrel), the M40A3 (Schneider).

Now all you need to do is learn to breath right, know you're tables, and get a spotter you can work with. You'll be OSOK in no time!

Happy shooting!


[edit on 21/3/09 by cbianchi513]

reply to post by donwhite


Wow, A lot of information

I will answer as best an Old Sniper can..

Perhaps my favorite handgun tuned out to be the Star PD .45 cal.

I had one believe it or not!!!
Heavy, but well put together and accurate..

but I am also a PRO gun control person.

You know I have never held your beliefs against you my friend...

OTOH, how much larger is a .50 cal than the old Dirty Harry .44 Magnum? Answer, 0.06 inches.

I don't care for either one. An effective handgun has to be controllable and even as large as I am, I have trouble with the 44. The 50 is just too large for reasonable combat situations. Kind of fun to shoot for short periods of time though.

terms FLAT and DROP to describe the trajectory of any bullet in flight.

Same. but you know that. Just depends on who your talking too. I use both at various times.

.220 Swift was the fastest muzzle velocity cartridge off the shelf.

But because of the small bullet size, it delivers very little energy to the target, especially at extreme ranges. That's why it is considered a Varmint Round. I owned one in a Thompson Center Contender and it shot wonderfully and was extremely accurate.

“If you drop an exact duplicate bullet from the same height at the same time the fired bullet exits the perfectly level barrel, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time.”

Correct.. Newton was a smart cookie..

This says to me all bullet trajectory curves are the same.

Almost but not quite..

1. Bullet Shape
2. Construction
3. Internal Design
4. "Perfection"
5. External Factors

It is intuitive that the higher the exit velocity, the further the bullet will travel before touching down to earth.

Correct and velocity is a product of

1. Speed of powder burn
2. Weight of Projectile
3. Lands and Grooves
4. Shape of Projectile
5. Length of Barrel (Works in conjunction with Speed of Powder Burn)
6. Weapon "Lock Up".. ie.. Quality and functionality of the "Bolt mechanism"
7. And again, Internal Design of the Bullet

The DROP curve of any bullets of the same muzzle velocity should be the same.

As long as you take the above factors into account, you are correct.

Knowing that is not the case, then what other factors effect the flight of a bullet? It must be the aerodynamics of the individual bullet design. It is also intuitive that the longer in time is the bullet’s flight, the more effect aerodynamics will play as opposed to gravity which is constant.

Again, correct..
As long as all things are equal with the firearm, the design of the projectile, internal makeup.. (ie.. Solid Core/ Soft Core/ Internal Flechette) ((I can expand on that later if you wish))

Due to the nature of the mission of bullets, the designer is limited to a very few characteristics he or she can alter to achieve some specific goal.

Not really.. There is a vast difference in many areas..

Hollow-point
Match Point
Soft Point
Deformation on Leaving the barrel
Copper/Lead, combination or Alloy
Match Grade
Hand Spun
Length
Shape (General)
Solid Core vs Soft Core
Weight (Yes it effects the ballistics in regards to spin etc, even with Mr. Newtons Laws in effect)
Distribution of said weight

I do no know at what rate - that fact - spin - seems to rule out the external shape of the bullet having any effect on its trajectory curve.

Actually kind of..


That's not much of an answer so let me expound.

The spin is simply to keep the bullet "Straight" in flight.. ie.. Facing the correct way.. (Simle I know, but easiest to understand and I am NOT the smartest man)
So, the "Straighter" the bullet, the better the flight path..

Think throwing a Frisbee.. Throw it correctly and it sails.. Try throwing it sideways...

So the spin will be formulated as to bullet shape/design, weight, expected velocity and anticipated range needed.

All cause the bullet to travel father until old gravity wins the day.

I’m thinking the center of gravity must also correspond to the “aerodynamic” center of a bullet to assure a predicable flight path. If those 2 "centers" were not exactly the same, the bullet would tend to tumble or skip as it flies its course. IMO.

Slight changes in the Center of Gravity is one of the basics for Match Grade Ammo..

Yes, too much either way will cause a "Bad" fight, but the COG can be adjusted in very, VERY minute amounts to achieve wonderful results..

This is done with several factors.. A lot of "Cheaper" companies simply use an Alloy or steel shaft inserted in the center of the round. Better companies "Lake City Match" for instance, adjust the entire bullet design around a perfect center of gravity to achieve identical results each time.

but I’m wondering if bullet shape really plays any role in trajectory? Does one bullet have a “FLATTER” trajectory curve than another? If yes, then can that be explained if what I have written above is true.

Yes, again think of the Frisbee .....

Or better yet, the reason a Baseball is round and not square.

Here is a good analogy..

The best football passes are the ones were a perfect, or near perfect spiral is achieved.. The ball is in the perfect position to "Cut the air" and travel further by reduced air drag.. Same with a Bullet..
Design is VERY important.

Only distance to target and gravity would effect the trajectory.

In a vacuum that is true. We don't often shoot in a vacuum..

Also remember it is the shooter.. I have known Snipers that I would not want hunting me if they only had a Single Shot 22 and I had an M4..

As previously stated, I can expound on anything if you like..

Semper

The title of this thread seems to be a bit misleading.

Is it

Which caliber makes for a better sniper rifle??

Or..

Which rifle makes a better sniper rifle??

Or both??

Suggest some of you interested in this line of analysis or thinking take a look at Mel's Sniper page...here..at Sniper Central.
Here they discuss the .308 and .306 as well as 300 Winchester Magnums and other calibers..including the .223.

www.snipercentral.com...

Here also they analyze new entries in to this market by different manufacturers.

Hope this helps.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

reply to post by orangetom1999


And....

Remember...

A Rifle does NOT a Sniper Make!!!!

Semper

reply to post by Razmear23

The effective range of the .30-06 is 1,100+ yards.

.30-06 performance

The .308 is 800 meters per the army.

Army lists .308 at 800 meters effective range

Why this guy prefers the .30-06 over all others:

Review of the .30-06 round

If you look at these bullets the .308 is the shorty on the far right.

.308 far right, .30-06 is 2nd from the left

The most important thing though I'd say is which gun do you shoot best.

I have a 270 with a stock scope made by Browning. It isn't a sniper rifle but it can be used as such. Browning makes GREAT bolt action rifles.

reply to post by Ex_MislTech


You do realize all of those stats are subjective?

I have personally made 1200yds Plus with the 308

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


Yes, those ranges are like published speeds of Navy ships; sort of like a minimum. I have a Ruger M-77 RS I bought new in 1972. It shoots inside an MOA with 168gr BTHP. I am told it is accurate because has a Hart barrel, made under contract to Ruger at the time, but I do not know if that is true. It has an old Bushnell 3X9 and it will reach out to at least 600 yards which is where I run out of open pasture across the valley. It has clipped coyote at that range, firing from a sandbag rest, which are not the easiest targets to hit. I'd guess that it's good for bigger targets to 1000 yards at least on cooler, still days.

reply to post by pteridine


Hart Barrels are incredible!!!

What caliber is it?

Semper

[edit on 3/22/2009 by semperfortis]

reply to post by semperfortis


Semper,
It is a .30-06, of course. Almost a magnum with much less powder.
Sporter barrel, open sights, Ruger integral rings, nice walnut, and mirror blue finish. I like the open sights in case the scope is damaged in the field. Rifles without open sights are just zip-guns when the scope fails. I got a corn-fed Pennsylvania whitetail deer at 200 yards with the open sights.
It was the family corn field, so it was a fair exchange. We feed 'em, we eat 'em.

reply to post by semperfortis

3. Lands and Grooves
5. Length of Barrel (Works in conjunction with Speed of Powder Burn)
6. Weapon "Lock Up".. ie.. Quality and functionality of the "Bolt mechanism"

As previously stated, I can expound on anything if you like

I have a few more questions Mr S/F. 1) Lands and groves. 2) Number of turns. 3) Length of barrel. 4) Weight of barrel. 5) Effect of flash suppressor and anti-recoil methods. 6) Mauser type bolt action. 7) Style of stock. All to be answered from the perspective of finding the perfect sniper rifle.

1) I have in mind the story how the mistake in measuring the land and groves caused the American .38 caliber to be in real gun life a true .357 caliber so that for us to refer to a true .38 caliber we must say “380." I assume there are some rules how deep into the barrel the groves ought to be cut. (Doing the math, it seems the depth of a grove in a S&W handgun is 0.0115 inches).

As I understand it, even the slightest cut would serve the function of spinning the bullet so beyond that minimal depth, cutting it deeper might be desirable or useful only to forestall the necessity of cleaning the particles that would normally foul the grove?

2) I assume reference to turns such as “1 in 12" is giving the number of turns per 12 inches of barrel length. I have also seen “1 in 16.” Is there any scientific method to determine the number of turns?

3) Does the Federal rule on barrel length apply to rifles as well as to shotguns? I usually see rifle barrel lengths in 20, 22, 24 and 26 inches. Q1. What is the minimum length for a rifle barrel? Q2. Is there any reason why I don’t see odd numbers of inches in barrel length?
I have read that any firearm barrel length longer than the powder burn time is superfluous. Anecdote. A friend and I were hunting. We stopped on a bridge over a very still river. He had a .22 Remington semi-auto rifle and I was carrying a Ruger Standard with the short 4.75 inch barrel. I was able to splash the river as far as he was with his rifle. Q3. What do you make of that shoot-out as relates to barrel length and range?

4) Again referring to Ruger and its BULL barrel for target work, it is my impression that the larger and heavier barrel serves only as a heat sink, that is, it maintains a more consistent temperature during heavy use so that minor distortions in the barrel caused by heat variations are minimized. What is your take on bull barrels?

5) Also, does the military sniper rifle have a muzzle brake or anti recoil provision built into the barrel and last, does it have a flash suppressor?

6) Remington has a relatively new line of rifles -2006 - the 798 and 799, which is based on the 1898 Mauser bolt action mechanism. I understand our own 1903 Springfield Arsenal rifles were licensed under Mauser patents? Does that mean all high quality bolt actions in 2009 are based on this rather old German development?

7) Style of stock. I’m really asking why the military does not use the competition style stock with the thumb hole and full hand grip?

Thanks for your time.


[edit on 3/22/2009 by donwhite]

Originally posted by backyard guru
the dealer here in town is trying to get me to buy a sako tikie or tee kie, i know that is the wrong spelling, but its pronounced that way, hes pushin the 06 on me, and my friends on the other hand recommend like you do to use the 308.

I simply want something that could become a rifle that i would love, never want to give up, and always make that kill.

Is that too much to ask for , I had that once when i was a kid, my dad bought me a marlin 22 mag bolt, a 883 and it never missed, I always got my bunnies and tree rats every shot, now its time to move up , and I wanted something for long range.

I guess it will never really be a sniper rifle as Im not a sniper, but I want the fricken best there is, so I can take my buddies on the range, not once , but all the time.

Thanks for your advice

I simply want something that could become a rifle that i would love, never want to give up, and always make that kill.

Ok so you want to pick something that you will want to shoot and do so on a regular basis.

So drop the .300 WM. That round will punish you. It is not a pleasant round to shoot and especially out of a sporter rifle. Take also into consideration the cost of rounds.

If you plan on reloading in the future, then you'll have some issues with the belted cases of the .300.

I would choose either the .308 or the .06. Rounds are reasonable and you can go to the range and do 75-100 without too large of a bruised shoulder.

Personally I went with the .06, and have used one for years in both my hunting rifle and my Garand.