Medical Professionals getting in to 911 truth

Keep 'em comin'.
The more the merrier.
The bigger the better.
Pretty soon everyone will want to know the truth!
Well... except maybe a few....

Another place for people to rally. Good thing. And they will have valid things to say on the fact that Lower Manhattan was open for business while there was still lots of toxic dust in the air, and about how many of the first responders became seriously ill as a result.

And what a great argument for another investigation! Sure, let 'em have it, if you've nothing to hide you've got nothing to lose.

Killing one president is pretty bad... killing 3000 citisens is going to be a lot harder to get over. Face it Cameron, people aren't going to let this one go. Debunk all you want, there's just too many coincidences, too much evidence.

And didn't you post a thread about the death of the 9.11 truth movement only a little while ago? It's looking far from moribund to me.

I think someone else mentioned it in this thread, what happens if the next investigation supports the first?

Will everyone go about their business? No, they problem is that most ignore the evidence at hand. They ignore the Physics, Engineering Science, etc that has been brought to bear in this and instead rally around other peoples theories.

Doctors are not structural engineers, The fact that they are intelligent means nothing. If they are now authorities on this then I guess you wont mind your local general contrator performing surgery on you.

After all they have to study, be knowledgable in many different trades and take many exams to maintain that qualification.

If there was a group of Wal-Mart greeters for truth would they get the same stamp of approval?

Why all this talk of a second investigation, when we didn't even have a first? Please tell me no one considers the 9/11 commision report a real investigation?

Far more time and money were spent investigating Bill Clinton and his disappearing cigars than the worst attack ever on American soil. A real investigation involves actually collecting and examining the remains and wreckage of the attack, not shipping it off to China or burying it in some landfill before any real analysis and study can take place.

Plane accident investigations can sometimes take a couple years for one airplane, as they have to collect and then put the pieces of the plane back together. Yet they pretty much closed the book on 9/11 within a few months, and only with public pressure did they eventually create the farce that the comission was.

I don't know what help medical professionals could offer, since we have to report of extensive tests or autopsies done on any of the victim's remains. At least they are there though.

I don't want a second investigation, I actually want a REAL investigation. But from the looks of it, its far too late for that.

In most plane crashes the cause of the crash is not known.

This means that investigators need to check the planes blackbox and rebuild as much of the plane as possible to find out the cuases of the crash.

In the case of the WTC crashes the reason for them was known, they struck a 110 story building.

No need to reconstruct the whole plane to find out why it crashed.

All four blackboxes were recovered;

The biggest problem is that in the wake of the events there was so much Gov Paranoia that they messed up with how they dealt with the release of information to the public (who were scared, shocked, afraid, etc)

So yes the governmet messed up the investigation and how they dealt with the public; but that does not change what happened.

posted by Achorwrath

In most plane crashes the cause of the crash is not known.

In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI confiscating videos and photographic equipment within mere minutes after the alleged crash. In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI intimidating witnesses and gagging people with non-official testimonies. In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI on the scene ready to go into action before the alleged crash. In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI or some other Federal agents planting and staging light poles and guarding a taxicab and driver.

In most plane crashes, you do not have the Mainstream News Media already on the alleged crash scene, pretending to be eyewitnesses with several altering their original accounts to keep their lucrative jobs, all primed and ready to spread their lies and endless propaganda.

posted by Achorwrath

All four blackboxes were recovered;

There are eight black boxes in four alleged aircraft; id est: comprised of four sets of the flight data recorder (FDR) and the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). And by the way not one single serial number for those eight black boxes was verified; therefore we have no idea what planes or even airline those alleged black boxes came from.

Besides the alleged FDR from Flight 77, if accepted as genuine, proves by itself that Flight 77 could not possibly have knocked down the light poles and impacted the Pentagon. Of course if the FDR was genuine, then it would have had to have been planted in one of the two alleged places inside the Pentagon as reported by alleged witnesses.

Actually real living and verified eyewitnesses have placed the aircraft Over the Naval Annex and North of the Citgo gas station and high above the light poles and overhead highway sign in its path, and far north of the downed light poles, and zero verified witnesses have placed the aircraft on the south flight path striking the light poles; rendering the 9-11 Pentagon OFFICIAL STORY impossible.





[edit on 3/16/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPreston

posted by Achorwrath

In most plane crashes the cause of the crash is not known.

In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI confiscating videos and photographic equipment within mere minutes after the alleged crash. In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI intimidating witnesses and gagging people with non-official testimonies. In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI on the scene ready to go into action before the alleged crash. In most plane crashes, you do not have the FBI or some other Federal agents planting and staging light poles and guarding a taxicab and driver.

In most plane crashes, you do not have the Mainstream News Media already on the alleged crash scene, pretending to be eyewitnesses with several altering their original accounts to keep their lucrative jobs, all primed and ready to spread their lies and endless propaganda.

posted by Achorwrath

All four blackboxes were recovered;

There are eight black boxes in four alleged aircraft; id est: comprised of four sets of the flight data recorder (FDR) and the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). And by the way not one single serial number for those eight black boxes was verified; therefore we have no idea what planes or even airline those alleged black boxes came from.

Besides the alleged FDR from Flight 77, if accepted as genuine, proves by itself that Flight 77 could not possibly have knocked down the light poles and impacted the Pentagon. Of course if the FDR was genuine, then it would have had to have been planted in one of the two alleged places inside the Pentagon as reported by alleged witnesses.

Actually real living and verified eyewitnesses have placed the aircraft Over the Naval Annex and North of the Citgo gas station and high above the light poles and overhead highway sign in its path, and far north of the downed light poles, and zero verified witnesses have placed the aircraft on the south flight path striking the light poles; rendering the 9-11 Pentagon OFFICIAL STORY impossible.





[edit on 3/16/09 by SPreston]

You again overlook the simple things,

Yes you are right there are eight FDRs (two in each plane and they are orange not black), Perhaps I should have said the orange boxes were recovered from all 4 planes.

You distract from the information posted by using trivial symantecs and never refute any of the actual data in the posts. You continue to bring the FBI into everything although why I do not know...
The FBI would be the wrong governement agency for this. this would be the NSA or the DIA. but all of that is besides the point.

The cause of the crashes were known in all but one and the fourth was suspected based on logged and verrified phone calls from real living people on the plane.

You also fail to mention that your real living witnesses saw the plane hit the building.

[edit on 16-3-2009 by Achorwrath]

posted by Achorwrath

reply to post by SPreston

 

You continue to bring the FBI into everything although why I do not know...

You should know that most of these medical professionals are joining up to demand a real investigation of 9-11 because they know many of these facts and you do not.

Because George Dubya Bush gave the FBI sole authority over the Pentagon crime scene, and the FBI are not trained experienced aircraft crash scene investigators. Five minutes after the explosion at the Pentagon, the FBI National Capital Response Squad was on the scene? My gosh they must have already been in the air. Talk about heads-up reaction time.

Within five minutes of the Pentagon being hit, the first group from the FBI’s National Capital Response Squad arrives there. Due to this being a terrorist attack, the Pentagon and its grounds are immediately declared a federal crime scene. Under the terms of a 1995 presidential directive, this makes them the exclusive responsibility of the FBI.

Link

Because the FBI was ordered to curtail their 9-11 investigation.

FBI's Penttbom 9/11 Investigation

October 9, 2001: It is reported that the FBI and Justice Department have ordered FBI agents across the US to cut back on their investigation of the September 11 attacks, so as to focus on preventing future, possibly imminent, attacks.

Because the FBI are political tools created by the corrupt guy in the dress; J Edgar Hoover.

A number of witnesses who claim they saw Mohamed Atta living in Venice, Florida in early 2001 later allege that, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, they are intimidated by the FBI and told to keep quiet about what they knew. Amanda Keller, who claims to have lived with Atta during early 2001 (see (February-April 2001)), later says that, even after she moved away from Venice, FBI agents called her every other day for several months after the attacks. She tells investigative reporter Daniel Hopsicker about “intimidation by the FBI” that she suffered, adding, “They told me not to talk to anybody, to keep my mouth shut.”

Because the FBI is incompetent.

Due to the chaos and gridlock resulting from the morning’s attacks, the FBI is hampered in mobilizing its investigative operation at the Pentagon. Because the Pentagon is a crime scene, it is the FBI’s job to gather and document every piece of evidence there.

Because the FBI is incompetent.

Authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will describe: “Agents found what looked like a big Plexiglas windowpane on the lawn, which might have been part of an airplane window, except it was too big.… Somebody suggested it could be one of the blast-proof windows from the Pentagon, somehow blown 500 feet from the building.”

Too big? Well gee willikers, somebody could surely figure out if it was a brand spanking new blast-proof window from the Pentagon couldn't they? Quick hide it. Shove it under the rug. Who is the idiot who planted that oversized piece? Seems like a big bomb in the building would have blown that piece of plexiglass 500 feet away doesn't it? No wonder they hushed it up.

Because the FBI is incompetent.

FBI Special Agent Garrett McKenzie, who is coordinating the effort to photograph evidence at the Pentagon, pulls together a dozen photographers for a briefing. He instructs them: “We don’t need to photograph all the plane parts, only unique airplane parts or something specific. Like the pilot’s yoke, or anything with part of a serial number on it. If we have to prove what kind of plane this was, the serial numbers will be what we need.”

Duh! Well geeze you guys; you didn't find one single serial number did you? Since Flight 77 was elsewhere, you dared not find one single serial number. Correct?

Because the FBI is incompetent.

FBI’s Saudi Office Fails to Follow Up Thousands of 9/11 Leads; Unprocessed Documents Are Destroyed

[edit on 3/16/09 by SPreston]

Ah now medical professionals are more knowledgable about construction, demolition terrorism, and engineering than me?

Wow nice shift off of the focus, do you have any prrof that they know facts or information that I do not? Are they on a list of super important people that got more information than everyone else?

Or is it jsut their opinions that something is not right?

Your external quote all lack sources extcept for the first one and again you have NOT even touched on the information in my post nor come up with any counters to it.

Also again I say that using someone elses theory is not proof.
that is the link that your first "source" points to. History Commons, is run by the Center for Grassroots Oversight.

They participate in Open Content Participatory Jounalism.

That means that ANYONE can post information they do not check the facts of the stories but level for open discussion and investigation.

Sorry that is not a valid source to me as there is no citation for the infromation presented.

posted by Achorwrath

Ah now medical professionals are more knowledgable about construction, demolition terrorism, and engineering than me?

Your external quote all lack sources extcept for the first one and again you have NOT even touched on the information in my post nor come up with any counters to it.

Nah. No knowledge of construction, demolition, terrorism, and engineering is necessary in order to exercise simple common sense and logic and deductive reasoning. Unfortunately the opinions of government loyalists are of no practical value.

All of the external quotes are from the same source which is why I gave one link. You have evidence that History Commons deliberately distorted this complete 9-11 timeline?

You are disagreeing that J Edgar Hoover created the FBI as a tool for corrupt political hacks, or are you disagreeing that he was a crossdressing pervert like Rudolph Giuliani?





[edit on 3/16/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPreston

posted by Achorwrath

Ah now medical professionals are more knowledgable about construction, demolition terrorism, and engineering than me?

Your external quote all lack sources extcept for the first one and again you have NOT even touched on the information in my post nor come up with any counters to it.

Nah. No knowledge of construction, demolition, terrorism, and engineering is necessary in order to exercise simple common sense and logic and deductive reasoning. Unfortunately the opinions of government loyalists are of no practical value.

All of the external quotes are from the same source which is why I gave one link. You have evidence that History Commons deliberately distorted this complete 9-11 timeline?

You are disagreeing that J Edgar Hoover created the FBI as a tool for corrupt political hacks, or are you disagreeing that he was a crossdressing pervert like Rudolph Giuliani?

[edit on 3/16/09 by SPreston]

When you have more than personal attacks and derailing comments please bring them to the thread.

You have yet to dissprove anything I have posted, never ONCE refuted any of the evidence I post.

I will say this, although yes there are many that dissagree with the OS, it is still opninion on their part I have yet to see anyone come out with much more than speculation and theory.

Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Architects they are still only repeating what they believe. They are not privy to any more information that you or I on what happened there.

They were not given access to government papers or physical evidence so it is still just their opinions and theories.

As for your comment on History Common here is the link to their About Page.

Who creates the content?

Anyone who registers on the website and becomes a member of a timeline project can submit content. Membership is free. Once a user becomes a member, s/he can edit existing event summaries by clicking the edit link that is next to that event (the user must be logged in to see the edit link). In addition to editing existing events, users can also add new ones to the database. Registered users who add content are called “contributors.” Since the project is still beta, and since we do not have enough editors at this time, membership is restricted to a relatively small group of users

Since anyone can create this, there is no telling where the information came from.

Since it cannot be cited back to an original source it is hearsay.



[edit on 16-3-2009 by Achorwrath]

Originally posted by Achorwrath
In most plane crashes the cause of the crash is not known.

This means that investigators need to check the planes blackbox and rebuild as much of the plane as possible to find out the cuases of the crash.

In the case of the WTC crashes the reason for them was known, they struck a 110 story building.

No need to reconstruct the whole plane to find out why it crashed.

But, yet, we don't need to keep the steel from 3 buildings that fell mysteriously due to fire?

That's the point of us saying that the NTSB reconstructs planes to find out the cause. Because NO ONE recreated the towers to find out the cause. Unless you think computers can do a perfect recreation somehow?

Originally posted by Griff


But, yet, we don't need to keep the steel from 3 buildings that fell mysteriously due to fire?

Don't forget the planes that hit 1 & 2.

Semantics Mr. Griffin.

History Commons have very few contributors because the editors want to ensure that the data that is posted is properly sourced. Each data point on the HC is sourced to a "mainstream" news source so people can check that the facts submitted have previously been reported in a reputable publication.

Picked at random, this data point about the anthrax attacks is verified by not just one, but two sources.

Due to fire? Or due to the combination of damage and fire.

Please remember they were damaged no amount of ignoring this will make it go away.

Fire Alone was not the cause.

It is an important distinction that many miss.

If I lit a fire in the WTC the fire suppression systems (that the impact of the air craft damaged) would have already started to help curtail that event.

Likewise the electricity only to the floor in question would be shut off but access would still be there. All of the supporting structure would be in place.

As for testing the steel and debris how do you know this was not done?

How long from the colapse to the sale was it?

Considering it took serval months of 24/7 work it seems that there would be ample time to test the steel and other debris from the WTC.

In fact according to the Fresh Kills site the investigtion ran from Sept 2001 to July 2002.
Where evidence was sorted and recovered from the debri at the site.

Originally posted by rich23
History Commons have very few contributors because the editors want to ensure that the data that is posted is properly sourced. Each data point on the HC is sourced to a "mainstream" news source so people can check that the facts submitted have previously been reported in a reputable publication.

Picked at random, this data point about the anthrax attacks is verified by not just one, but two sources.

And the mainstream news is an authority on the activities of the FBI now? I am not sure how that makes it a credible source.

The news has reported on inforamtion incorrectly (as had been pointed out many many times on this board) but when it suits your (not pointing directly at you Rich23) purposes the MSM is credible.

That is duplicity.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Don't forget the planes that hit 1 & 2.

Semantics Mr. Griffin.

So, the towers fell when the planes struck?

Or was it the fires that weakened the steel that allowed them to collapse?

Semantics Mr. Cameron/ThroatYogurt/Captain Obvious.

BTW. Care to give your last name? If not, I suggest you retract my name and never use it again.

Originally posted by Achorwrath
And the mainstream news is an authority on the activities of the FBI now? I am not sure how that makes it a credible source.

I'm dealing with your beef with history commons. You said that anyone could post anything. Now I've dealt with that, you're trying to turn it around to the FBI. That's actually kind of sneaky.

The news has reported on inforamtion incorrectly (as had been pointed out many many times on this board) but when it suits your (not pointing directly at you Rich23) purposes the MSM is credible.

That's why there are two independent sources, I would have thought. Really, are the only sources you think are credible the FBI and the 9/11 commission?

That is duplicity.

Now the gloves come off. I've dealt, fairly and simply, with a point you've raised. I've demonstrated that the history commons are careful to show their sources so not anyone can post anything.

That's not duplicity. One might wonder whether someone with a forces background such as yourself might have any agenda here. It's not as if you're displaying conspicuous intellectual integrity. As soon as I dealt with a point you raised, you move the goal posts. Now that is duplicity.

Originally posted by Achorwrath
Due to fire? Or due to the combination of damage and fire.

No. Due to fire. Without the fire, there would be no steel weakening.

Please remember they were damaged no amount of ignoring this will make it go away.

Less than 15% of the columns on the affected floors were damaged. With a FOS of over 2.5, how does this damage cause collapse without fire?

So, yes, DUE TO FIRE!!!!!!

If I lit a fire in the WTC the fire suppression systems (that the impact of the air craft damaged) would have already started to help curtail that event.

Reports from survivors state that there was water running down the stairs (i.e. the sprinklers were working at least in part).

BTW, in tall buildings, the water stored for the sprinklers are on the roof and do not get fed from the ground up. Think about how much pressure would be needed to overcome a head of 1,113 feet.

As for testing the steel and debris how do you know this was not done?

Because NIST (the group who was taxed with this investigation) says so.

How long from the colapse to the sale was it?

How much of WTC 7 was kept? Answer: None.

Considering it took serval months of 24/7 work it seems that there would be ample time to test the steel and other debris from the WTC.

It would seem. Have you ever checked whether they did or not?

In fact according to the Fresh Kills site the investigtion ran from Sept 2001 to July 2002.
Where evidence was sorted and recovered from the debri at the site.

Wrong. I have posted a thread showing how false you are:

"Thousands of tons of steel were carted away from ground zero and recycled before any expert could examine what could have been tell-tale clues. Support trusses, fireproofing fragments and even burnt out electrical switches that might have given scientists and engineers insight were lost forever - even before an investigation was underway.

"These failures mean that we are short--even to this day--on conclusions about design decisions that may have contributed to the deaths of so many firefighters and workers on the top floors.

www.house.gov...

BTW, house.gov is NOT a conspiracy site.

Here's the thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

US Government Admits to Botched Job of WTC Investigation.

Also, you might want to check just when the investigation started. I believe it was October of 2002, 3 months AFTER your Fresh Kills landfill "investigation".

[edit on 3/16/2009 by Griff]

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by Achorwrath
Due to fire? Or due to the combination of damage and fire.

No. Due to fire. Without the fire, there would be no steel weakening.

Please remember they were damaged no amount of ignoring this will make it go away.

Less than 15% of the columns on the affected floors were damaged. With a FOS of over 2.5, how does this damage cause collapse without fire?

So, yes, DUE TO FIRE!!!!!!

If I lit a fire in the WTC the fire suppression systems (that the impact of the air craft damaged) would have already started to help curtail that event.

Reports from survivors state that there was water running down the stairs (i.e. the sprinklers were working at least in part).

BTW, in tall buildings, the water stored for the sprinklers are on the roof and do not get fed from the ground up. Think about how much pressure would be needed to overcome a head of 1,113 feet.

As for testing the steel and debris how do you know this was not done?

Because NIST (the group who was taxed with this investigation) says so.

How long from the colapse to the sale was it?

How much of WTC 7 was kept? Answer: None.

Considering it took serval months of 24/7 work it seems that there would be ample time to test the steel and other debris from the WTC.

It would seem. Have you ever checked whether they did or not?

In fact according to the Fresh Kills site the investigtion ran from Sept 2001 to July 2002.
Where evidence was sorted and recovered from the debri at the site.

Wrong. I have posted a thread showing how false you are:

"Thousands of tons of steel were carted away from ground zero and recycled before any expert could examine what could have been tell-tale clues. Support trusses, fireproofing fragments and even burnt out electrical switches that might have given scientists and engineers insight were lost forever - even before an investigation was underway.

"These failures mean that we are short--even to this day--on conclusions about design decisions that may have contributed to the deaths of so many firefighters and workers on the top floors.

www.house.gov...

BTW, house.gov is NOT a conspiracy site.

Here's the thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

US Government Admits to Botched Job of WTC Investigation.

Also, you might want to check just when the investigation started. I believe it was October of 2002, 3 months AFTER your Fresh Kills landfill "investigation".

[edit on 3/16/2009 by Griff]

Again you zero in on one facet the fire.

There was significant damage to the building. you can deny it all you want but your 15% esitmate it not accurate.

The fire was one part of the incident, the buildings were impacted by planes each have their onw intertial force, they damaged 8 floors in some placed the floors were damaged to the core removing lateral support.

Water flowing down stairs does not mean the sprinklers were working.
After all there were ruptured plumbing in the building also.... which brings me to another point... Lets say water was hitting the fire, you never fiight an oil or fuel fire with water. it cases it to spread and can act as an acclerant

Oh and that representative says thousands of tons, hmmm if memory serves there was 1.8 million tons. since you use percentages even 100,000 is 5%...
So with 5% (based on that quote) gone there is no way to examine what it left?

That quote does not say, all of the steel was carried away and recycled before anyone looked at it.

The FBI, was involved in the Free Kills investigation from Sept 2001 to July 2002.