Taxation is slavery.

Okay, not exactly, but let me explain from a libertarian view.

I'm going to be right to the point. Taxation is slavery no matter how you think about it. You're a person. Your employers give you a sum of money during each of your paychecks. The money therefore becomes a part of you. When the government is taking that part of you away they're taking part of your person. Therefore they are conscripting you for service and not only isn't just slavery in that sense but they're forcing you to work for them (the government).

People have a right to property. If the government can take that away then they can take anything away and make you work for them for whatever reason.

People don't realize this and it is because of that the government continues to increase taxes on us and act like its some dictatorial regime of some sort.

Once you realize that the government is enslaving you by taxing you then you start to see the world differently.

Now, wouldn't it be a lot better if you could keep all that money?

I've always wished we could have the right to choose whether to pay them and be a part of the system or not pay and be part of the alternative that seems to be able to live just fine without paying them.

In one way it sucks. And I understand why no one likes it.

On the other hand, you have to look at the alternative. For example, roads. If all roads are private,they can maintain them how they want. Build them where they want. I am sure there would be a lot of favor doing in that sense. The rich would have better roads then the poor. And, they could charge what they want to use them.

So in some ways taxes can seem like slavery. But being totally beholden to personal agendas and private citizens would be far worse in my book.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by nixie_nox]

actually taxation is more like protection money paid to the mafia.... so in a sense the govt is the mob.

In answer to the roads issue income tax does not pay that, its the tax from gasoline that pays for the roads.

Income tax i believe goes to repaying the fed, not 100% sure but i think thats how it works

Though I do see your point, it could be argued (and has been in threads past) that capitalism in itself is slavery. Not like thats my thing or anything.
But I always use this comparison when it comes to taxation. Would you rather have the biggest, most ornate 15 bedroom mansion with two pools in a slum neighborhood? Sure, you have such a beautiful house but your neighbors, who are poor, are always stealing your bike, they are envious of you and would do anything to knock you down, and overall- when you drive by it is an unpleasant place to live, both aesthetically and emotionally. Or would you rather have a beautiful six bedroom house with just one pool in a lovely, safe neighborhood where all the roads and landscaping are brand new and everyone gets along so nicely? Sure, its not the 15 bedroom mansion, but you still have the nicest house on the block!

actually what gets me mad is that we have double and sometimes triple taxation on the same income. Example:

I make $1000 a week.
Fed takes $150 in taxes and the state takes $50.
I go spend my $800 (already been taxed) on a new computer.
Now I get taxed 7% more on that $800. That doesn't include the hidden taxes in the price of the computer that inflates it's final price.

I've never been a fan of income tax, because out of all the taxes it seems to have the least accountability. Though there are ways to pay less - earn less, consume less become self employed and learn how to avoid them by trading with other like minded individuals.

Then again property taxes are even worse - people work all their lives to have a nice home to live and perhaps entertain in, but its not enough that you pay it off and pay for it's upkeep - by the time you retire the taxes are often more than your house payments were when you originally purchased the property. It's just not right.

Slavery, yes - you can never rest else they take what you have.

On the other hand Use taxes such as gas taxes or tolls that directly pay for our roads are not so bad. You can choose to drive, bike, walk, car pool take a bus, train or plane etc. or not.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by verylowfrequency]

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
I've never been a fan of income tax, because out of all the taxes it seems to have the least accountability. Though there are ways to pay less - earn less, consume less become self employed and learn how to avoid them by trading with other like minded individuals.

Then again property taxes are even worse - people work all their lives to have a nice home to live and perhaps entertain in, but its not enough that you pay it off and pay for it's upkeep - by the time you retire the taxes are often more than your house payments were when you originally purchased the property. It's just not right.

Slavery, yes - you can never rest else they take what you have.

On the other hand Use taxes such as gas taxes or tolls that directly pay for our roads are not so bad. You can choose to drive, bike, walk, car pool take a bus, train or plane etc. or not.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by verylowfrequency]

Beautifully said. Property tax is perhaps the most vile tax of all. To forever be an indentured servent always paying and paying for land to the govt is just so abhorrent.

But on the other hand use taxes are very responsible and intelligent. In a true free market use taxes would prevail and be more common place. But then what would happen is the govt would perhaps just boost use taxes by many factors to pay for other things.

The system would have to have in place a measure that says a use tax can not pay for anything else other than what it is derived from. So tax on gas cant pay for schools or medicare, it can just pay for roads, plowing and such.

As long as you don't use roads, bridges, sewers, water, electricity, have never attended a public school, don't call the police when victimized by criminals, don't care if there's no fire department to put out fires, feel confident in your ability to stave off invading armies by yourself, don't use the internet or GPS or the phone system, etc... then this attitude towards taxation makes perfect sense.

For those of us who don't live off the land in a log cabin in the woods however, taxation is necessary, because all of the above (and many more things I didn't have time to list) are paid for in whole or in part by taxes.

I like the idea of use taxes, but how do you apply them to things like the army, which I don't really use directly in the same way I do roads?

I also think that we do a poor job of measuring the true costs of some of the items we use. How much is the cost to society of the operation of a car? There are the obvious costs of the road construction of course, but what about the more subtle costs of the damage to health and environment caused by the emissions from all those millions of cars? Should some healthcare expenses be funded by taxes on gasoline? And what about that army? Should gas taxes pay for some of the cost of the military which we have to maintain partially to help keep the supply of oil flowing smoothly into all our gas tanks?

I am not arguing against funding the necessary government projects with use fees, but it is a complicated situation. You can't just separate out and say that gas taxes go for roads and call that the solution to the problem.




[edit on 6-3-2009 by total_slacker]

reply to post by xmotex


With an attitude like that you might as well just hand them over your bank account and let them decide how much free time you can have to yourself.

Imagine if there we're not so many greedy lazy criminals working as civil servants or some other level of government - than your utopia could actually work.

All one has to do is walk in any government office and watch them work for a couple of hours. Lots of BS'ing, lots of feet up on the desk, take a number and they may help you after they're done with lunch.

Problem is there's so much corruption in the system that we only get about 15% of value out of the taxes we pay - if that. Ding Ding - that's why it's equated with slavery - no accountability yet they never have enough, but I guess you didn't get that and instead decided to remind all of us stupid people that there's a reason we pay taxes - duh thanks for the info, Big Brain.

So, while it's great to say yeah without taxes we wouldn't have XXX, but the truth is we could have XXX and more for half as much as we already pay if there weren't so many lazy ass corrupt criminals working in government.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by verylowfrequency]

Taxation is slavery.

Yes, thats exactly what it is.
Forget about the, not exactly.
It is slavery.
Money, is slavery.

I don't believe in utopias.

And it doesn't take my entire income (not even a third of it even) to make all that stuff happen. The rest I get to keep and do whatever the hell I want with.

In exchange, I get all the things I listed - not a bad deal at all IMO.

I don't believe in ideological approaches, period.

I believe in the reality I observe, and the reality I observe shows that those societies which succeed do so by some degree of cooperation and collective effort, and some degree of independent effort.

reply to post by verylowfrequency


There is no doubt that there are many inefficiencies in the operation of the government. Many of those are caused by the non-competitive nature of what a government is and does, but I suspect that you won't find corporate America to be all that much better at a lot of things.

I once worked for the computer department of a large corporation where when a poor user would call in with a PC problem, there were no fewer than 5 departments who might have to get involved before he/she would get the problem fixed. There were desktop software guys, desktop hardware guys, network cabling people, network people, and the server engineers. These were separate groups with separate reporting structures and each of them was quite adept at showing up, taking one quick look at the issue, and shuffling it off to another group.

By the way, I suspect that a lot of the paperwork and red tape the government workers have to deal with is imposed on them by us....by our need to have every dollar accounted for down to the penny and to ensure that we always spend as little as possible by always putting contracts out for bid etc. I wonder how many government employees are tied up just in monitoring and running the competitive bidding process?

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown


My friend is a cpa and I complain about this all the time to her.

Everything seems to be double and triple taxed or more.

I said for example: I buy a new car, I pay taxes on it. If someone else buys it, they pay taxes on it. I said that same car gets taxed every time it is sold.

I said when you earn an income, you get taxed on it. If someone inherits it, they get taxed on it.

I think property tax should be a one time deal. Just like any other item, since you only buy a property once.

Just like social security. You put in far more then you will ever get out, how is that even legal?

Yet if a bank borrows your money, they have to pay interest on it. So how is it you put in, don't get the same out, and you don't get any interest?

There are some things that we need but are not profitable - which is why we need taxes.

But, it seems like it IS slavery by the means they are using our tax money.

We taxpayers need governments to protect us from selfish, aggressive, ignorant people who can't get on with their neighbours, friends, co-workers or superiors, who are forever losing jobs and never out of debt, who often get arrested and frequently end up in gaol, who park, pollute and party till dawn with never a thought for others, get drunk and vicious in public, and think being a contributing member of society is to be a slave.

It follows that if there's no taxation without representation, there shouldn't be any representation without taxation.

Taxation, under the morally-conditions is a grand pool of peoples money (directly translated from effort [aka work]) put together to give back to the community as a whole. If you look at it certain ways, its forcefully generating benevolence as we all have to give some part of our income and we all get it back, although not directly. Things such as roads, sewer and water systems, defence, police, and other various services are privileges given to us because we all give, and in our time of need, we get back.

Yes, one doesn't have to look too hard to see needless squandering of the tax payers money, but there are some very obvious examples all around us as to why taxation benefits all.

However, if you would like to construct a society where each independent person can live for their own selfish desires, be my guest. Individualism and an attitude such as the one that says "There is no need for me to help my fellow man" is exactly what is tearing this world apart. Can we correct ourselves? From this thread, I'm guessing not.

I think you're taking a valid observation to an unrealistic extreme. Clearly the current tax system is far from fair.

However, it isn't unreasonable to have to spend your money on something that you need, be it food or government.

You have to pay for your rent or move out of the house.
You have to pay your tab or stop going to the bar.
You have to pay for the roads or stop driving on them.
You have to pay the cops or leave the area they are protecting.

So taxes can be as just as any other expense in your life.

The problem arises when you are forced to pay for something that you get no value for. This is the fundamental problem with the income tax.

The income tax tries to calculate your stake in society and your share of the tab based on how much you make. This is a roughly applicable system- it does make a wealthy shareholder in GM pay more than I do for the roads and bridges without which their product would be useless, which is fair.
Unfortunately, it doesn't work across the board. Perhaps you make 60k and I only make 40k, therefore you pay more, even though it is entirely possible that I have actually incurred more expense to the public via use of roads, schools etc then you have.

Although there are a few bones I have to pick with the national sales tax people, they are getting a lot closer to the right idea- with the consumption based tax, although it needs to be made a little more accurate still. Taxes on the use of government-provided services and fees for the creation of public bads make considerably more sense. Of course it would take quite a bit of time to fine tune a system to really function accurately like that- the systems analysis for all the various things people do and they way it costs the public would be a massive undertaking.


Under an ideal system, if a person was extremely disciplined about what they accepted from government, it should be possible for them to effectively "opt out" of most taxes and most legal rights/expectations and obligations, other than a few universal items such as the penal code, simply by not engaging in activities which render those taxes and laws relevant.
This would make one truly free to reject his government without the government in turn removing his right to have soil under his feet (the man without a country dilemma).