Jesus giving his life is no big sacrifice

As cultures and nations conquer each other, their customs and mythologies are merged, naturally.

We can see this even today with the onslaught of globalism. It's just a matter of time before McDonalds pop up in churches across the world.

Originally posted by Evasius
I was under the impression Jesus believed he was the Son of God - he had faith in his destiny and life's purpose. Through his belief he did many great things. One of the great things he did was help lift a burden from mankind's future by enduring the powerful karmic implications of taking upon pain, suffering, and death with the purpose that we in the future would be relieved in some way of the pain and uncertainty this world bestows upon us from birth until death. I also believe the result of his actions carries over to whatever afterlife awaits us, but to know those implications, I'd have to have all the answers.

Jesus didn't go through life living like a superhero -- acting normal during the day, while knowing full well that he secretly had extraordinary powers. He believed in this power, and that belief in turn made it real. What was extraordinary about Jesus was that he was a man that found his true essence while living as a man, and dying as a man. Therefore he is remembered as being much more that just a man, and as someone connected with or as part of a higher power.

He died for us all to gain the knowledge that he himself gained during his life - that we are all God, and we can do extraordinary things.

As in Luke 17:21 "...behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

[edit on 5/3/09 by Evasius]

Thank you Evasius. I've had the same question as the OP for some time except I fervently believe in the trinity... I just don't have all the answers to my questions about it. Your explanation of viewing his incarnate death as a lifting of karmic implications really seems to explain it, for me at least... I will have to think on that more. Your statement: "He died for us all to gain the knowledge that he himself gained during his life - that we are all God, and we can do extraordinary things." is interesting but only a part of it sits well with me. I believe that he did die to show us that that kind of faith is in us all and because of that we can do extraordinary things but I do not believe that we all are God.

As far as questioning Christian beliefs goes, I was raised a Christian and still am a Christian but believe that it's imperative that we search for answers to our questions in other beliefs as well. I'm still in the process of determining exactly what I do believe (and probably will be for the rest of my life) and the only way I see for me to do that is to be open to ideas of others on their beliefs (or non-beliefs) and intently discerning if that resonates with my soul. I believe we all already have the answers... we just have to open up to others in order to get them.

generally, the belief is that jesus lived without sin, he allowed himself to be crucified and then he died and was punished for our sins. essentially, jesus went to hell. that's the implication anyway.

not that it matters, the point of protestantism is, kind of, to believe anything you want. there's probably a church that believes what you do and if a church doesn't share your beliefs you can start a new one. especially in the US, you can just make it up as you go along!!!

why not just start a new branch that believes the whole crucification thing is no biggey.

doesn't really matter that much so long as the whole "love your god and your fellow man" bit is still there. all the rest is pretty much just window dressing, even jesus said that.

Originally posted by Daniem
God in the form of a human, (Jesus) gave his life and was cruzified.

Now.. when you KNOW that if you sacrifice your life; you'll immediatly get a NEW life (an eternal life), and omnipotent power, THAT'S not realy a big sacrifice is it?

I'd do it if i knew what he knew.

I am sure you would. But since I am God and I didn't know anything out of the ordinary of any other man I guess that would mean you really don't know what your talking about.

reply to post by Daniem


Ya same here. They tried to brainwash me. Didn't work. It backfired.
The more I knew.. the less I believed.

Part of the answer is in the need for blood sacrifice on the part of Jesus' followers. You ever see that South Park where they parody "The Lottery"? "Sacrifice in Fall, corn grows real tall!"

People need blood, and they need death. I am sure Jesus struggled with this and I also hapen to believe that yes, he did not die but that someone else died up there. Yes, I am one of those crazy Christians who can accept that maybe Jesus as a real King, was able to let some wannabe messiah get crucified. Jesus' bloodline was important and I believe the female aspect of the whole gospel say so much more than the whole papist story of Jesus' blood sacrfice.

Now here is the operative question: If Jesus' did or did not die, or if Jesus did or did not suffer, how does it affect your personal faith deep inside your heart? See for me, I have so much respect for Jesus as a historical person that I find it absurd that he'd climb up on the cross for some blood sacrifice. So I do not know what took place, but I believe it was more complex than the "cover story" that he was god's son, etc, etc.

Some people (like Mel Gibson maybe?) need to have their Jesus flayed and ruined else they feel that some invisible debt is not paid. To these believers I would ask: If Jesus had undergone a much more deep torture like say being racked or drawn/quartered or maybe slowly being boiled in oil, would that increase your faith more than just being nailed up? Also if you were allowed to go into a time machine and watch Jesus being boiled in oil, would you go watch and would your faith be strengthened? If so, why?

I imagine some may answer, "Well, just to know that he suffered for me makes me love him" But I would say that there is a critical flaw in this thinking which may actually surprise a lot of 'believers'. These people may believe in torture but do they believe in mercy in regards to their own King? Do they require a King who gets boiled in oil for them or can they still have the same faith if their King snuck off into the wilderness and had babies with Mary instead?

so how is it i am the only one to S&F this? this is a good debate starter! and i personally agree with you and came to the conclusion myself a few weeks ago. i asked my x christian friend, (if the story is even that accurate) "whats the big deal about death"? so you die and go on to live forever in what they believe to be utopia. great good times! oh wow a man was tortured. now god forbid anyone be put through such an act, but you forget that atleast HUNDREDS of people went through the same traumatic experiences if not WORSE! soo...pow's experienced way worse in terms of pain than the guy that died for all of humanity ALL throughout history? HA that right there is PROOF! death is NOT a bad thing! he was a threat to the roman church, that is if he even existed.

ya know if christians took responsibility for themselves then why would they say hey this man died for me. a whipping boy is the term i believe. i personally say ANY sort of creator that sacrificed and tortured so brutally another for my own "mishaps", is not a just creator.

you know why religion is false? .....anybody? .....BECAUSE THERE IS MORE THAN ONE!!! there is not more than one evil. evil is just that, evil. there is not more than one truth. for the mere fact that it can be debated debunks it.

as for that poster that said "not until you can do all these things jesus did in forgiveness can you judge him", that is circular logic my friend. youre quoting a story. wheres the historian with that written down? because there WERE historians in those days.

as for christianity and all religion, the idea is great, the practice is likened to the devil, fear. you create separation, segregation. you create an inner circle and subsequently create an outer circle. THAT is not godly.

you are sooo welcome and i love you more than you know, really.

In Lak'ech, i cant say it enough. study it

Well I sincerely hope this does not devolve into another "I'm so enlightened and Christians are so stupid" thread.

Anyway...responding to the OP:

While I don't agree with the example given in the OP, I get the point. I'm Orthodox and I think the Eucharist has kind of a weird theology behind it.

The idea that the bread and the wine are the body of blood of Christ may leave some with an eerie feeling although I believe it to be true.

reply to post by silo13


It's funny how you believe information coming from a book that has been modified and rewritten countless times.

reply to post by Gouki


Its also just as amusing to conclude that you are a product of your environment.

Originally posted by Daniem
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

Im a member of the christian church and have had classes on religion and christianity since i started school as a kid. I was in the gospel for a while also.

So i have heard enough to form my own opinion. Can you explain it to me if i got it wrong?

I am trying to say, read it again, question it with your own questions and you will find answers. It might take some time and it might mean a bit of a journey for you but you will get the answers.

Nobody on this planet can tell you what to think or tell you right from wrong unless you let them. You are falling into a trap by asking other people the questions.

Asking this question to another person is like asking a plumber to fix a car. He will give you an interpretation but it will not be the correct one to fix the car. Metaphorically speaking obviously.

I hope that makes sense and if it does not just now then it will later.



[edit on 6-3-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by monkcaw
Well I sincerely hope this does not devolve into another "I'm so enlightened and Christians are so stupid" thread.

Oh noze, we got two new users trading one line responses. I think you called it. +2 Intuition... Very nice.

Also I truly do agree with your tagline about how the body is really a protection for us so that we can actually _wonder_ about the world rather than having to see how bad it is behind closed doors like if we were in spirit bodies. Nice observations.

But your comment about the Eucharist is interesting. I am wondering, have you ever read Lucifer's Hammer? It's a book where a comet hits earth and then after that Americans break into basically gangs formed along two lines: Cannibals and non-cannibals. Perhaps in regards to thread hijacking, the best offense is a good, ...offense?

reply to post by smallpeeps


No, I have not read The Lucifer's Hammer. Sounds like a good story about human nature; I definitely would not be in the cannibal gang. And are you saying that those who derail threads with anti-christian hate are like the cannibal gang? If so, there may be a very deep and troubling truth in your analogy.

Your previous post concerning the crucifixion/suffering of Christ was interesting. To answer you, and I can only speak for myself, I'd say no, I do not need my Christ to suffer. If he suffered more, would my faith be increased, no I think not. I think his suffering serves to highlight his sublime humility and it's this example of humility that excites my faith.

However, If Christ truly did leave the cross for someone else and ran off with Mary, I'm afraid I could not be a christian. There is a profound theology behind marriage and sex and if Jesus was truly divine I think he'd have no use for either one. But that's perhaps another thread in itself.

Originally posted by Daniem
Im a member of the christian church and have had classes on religion and christianity since i started school as a kid.

No offense, but therein lies your problem. You have to make up your own mind. You cannot be told what to believe.

God allowed his son to be killed because we thought it was right. If that is not enough, it was an extremely horrific death. Would you be able to embody "turn the other cheek" any better op?

double post

[edit on 6-3-2009 by heyo]

reply to post by Gouki

It's funny how you believe information coming from a book that has been modified and rewritten countless times.

Where did I ever say I believe in (all) the Bible?

Don't presume.

peace

reply to post by smallpeeps


oH hI +h3R3, JUdG1Ng phROM j00r r35p0NCe j00r OBVIou5ly 50M3 L33+ F0RUm p05teR. i wILL tRy to 1nDuLD93 J00R +HIR$+ pH0r mOR3 +h4N 0nE L1NeRS.

Originally posted by tristar
reply to post by smallpeeps

 

oH hI +h3R3, JUdG1Ng phROM j00r r35p0NCe j00r OBVIou5ly 50M3 L33+ F0RUm p05teR. i wILL tRy to 1nDuLD93 J00R +HIR$+ pH0r mOR3 +h4N 0nE L1NeRS.

Very good job of proving his point there, mate.

Anyway, I enjoy the comment from To Kill a Mockingbird: The real miracle was not that Jesus rose from the grave, it's that the Apostles went on and helped found one of the largest religions of the world at the moment.