How Will Kerry Be Any Different As President?

Yes, I started this thread as a way to hash out all points of view. And, I'm grateful to all of you who continue to contribute to the discussion. I hope it keeps going. This is the most important election of my entire life.

I don't care what side of the issue you're all on. I just want to hear and discuss all points of view.

Facefirst
Quote:
That is one part of what I was talking about. Those same countries went into Afgahnistan with us and very possibly could have gone into Iraq with us given time.
End quote.
_
There was no way that France, Germany,or Russia was ever going to support the US going into Iraq. Why? Because they were on the receiving end of some very sweet deals with Saddam, deals involving billions of dollars, and oil at very low prices. They stood to lose big time if Saddam was removed.

Wait until the oil for food scandal is fully exposed. Even Kofi Annan is involved. Then it will become even more obvious that diplomacy at the UN was doomed to failure from the start.

This is one more reason why I disagree with Kerry so much. His current TV ad states that he would handle the Iraq situation differently by getting the world community involved. The ad sounds very nice to the uninformed, the only ones who would be fooled by such empty rhetoric.


_

Originally posted by jsobecky
misscleo

You are not voting FOR Kerry as much as you are voting AGAINST Bush.

You should post some proof of your statements, such as

Cheating to win an election

Turning the support of so many people in the world against the US

etc.

I would be very interested in the basis of your allegations.

_

I should again state that sadly I don't get a vote as I'm not American. Having said that I have become very fascinated by America, particularly in the wake of 9/11. I also want to state just so that there's no confusion... I love America! What it stands for at it's core, the founding principles of your country are amazing. And the world at large has benefitted from them. The world at large, also stands to continue to benefit from them. But not if your own country doesn't stand by the very things that made it great in the first place.

You asked for proof. I'll try and provide.

For starters on the point of cheating to win...

www.gregpalast.com...

Greg Palast wrote a book called "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy". I haven't read it in its entirety yet, but I did see him speaking on CSPAN when I was in Utah at the begining of the year, and he was very interesting.

Download the first chapter for a detailed overview of exactly how the cheating worked, why not enough Americans have heard about it and why these methods stand poised to work to the detriment of democracy in the coming election as well. I warn you, there's 70 pages of information here. So read it when you've got a little bit of time on your hands.

Conversely, there is a very interesting documentary I watched called "Unprecedented: The 2000 Presidential Election" directed by Richard Ray Perez and Joan Sekler. It outlines a lot of the same things. Although, having read that first long chapter, Mr. Palast gets into a lot more detail.

Regardless both provide frightening details of just what happened in Florida, details that every single American who values freedom and Democracy should be aware of.

As for global opinion ... here's this one...

people-press.org...

Not to mention the fact that not living in the US I am privy to the media reports from many sources outside of the US, as well as American sources and the difference in tone is evident. This coupled with speaking with lots of people from lots of different countries, believe me... this administrations forign policy is frightening a lot of your friends and allies. And it feels like any time anyone tries to say anything about it, they're facing the firing squad.

Lastly, when I was poking around on-line I found this.

skirsch.com...

I'm not familiar with the author or his background, but I found it interesting and well said nonetheless.

Back to what this whole thread is really about would Kerry be any better than Bush... My thinking is probably.

Are they both still corporate puppets? Probably.

Are they really only offering America a choice between a lesser of two evils? Probably.

But at least, for the love of God America, choose that lesser of two evils. PLEASE!!!!

I dont like either candidates. Bush is an idiot and Kerry looks like a lying retarted democrat. Maybe just like Clinton

Originally posted by misscleo

Back to what this whole thread is really about would Kerry be any better than Bush... My thinking is probably.

Are they both still corporate puppets? Probably.

Are they really only offering America a choice between a lesser of two evils? Probably.

But at least, for the love of God America, choose that lesser of two evils. PLEASE!!!!




Great post, misscleo. Thanks for joining this debate. It's always good to get an outside perspective.

I do think Kerry would be far better, diplomatically speaking. I think he would acknowledge failures, work to correct them and work on mending relations with our allies.

As she pointed out, the eyes of the world are upon us like never before come this November.

I my self don't like politicians, they say "we want your intrests to prevail" when they mean "VOTE FOR ME I LOVE POWER!"

But on the topic, if I had to give my opinion, yes, Kerry has proven to be totaly willing to lie to make people like him.

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by ShirtNinja]

Originally posted by ShirtNinja
But on the topic, if I had to give my opinion, yes, Kerry has proven to be totaly willing to lie to make people like him.

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by ShirtNinja]

Then he'd make a great American president!

Originally posted by jsobecky

This is one more reason why I disagree with Kerry so much. His current TV ad states that he would handle the Iraq situation differently by getting the world community involved. The ad sounds very nice to the uninformed, the only ones who would be fooled by such empty rhetoric.

_

What is wrong with getting the world community involved?
We need them in there. Our forces are stretched quite thin.

Originally posted by misscleo


I should again state that sadly I don't get a vote as I'm not American. Having said that I have become very fascinated by America, particularly in the wake of 9/11. I also want to state just so that there's no confusion... I love America! What it stands for at it's core, the founding principles of your country are amazing. And the world at large has benefitted from them. The world at large, also stands to continue to benefit from them. But not if your own country doesn't stand by the very things that made it great in the first place.

But at least, for the love of God America, choose that lesser of two evils. PLEASE!!!!

Very interesting post.
May I ask what country you are from? Just curious.

I too make a point of watching as many different news sources as I can. Mostly European and Asian, but regardless, it is always good to get outside perspectives on the issues at hand.

My lesser evil is Kerry.

Originally posted by Facefirst

What is wrong with getting the world community involved?
We need them in there. Our forces are stretched quite thin.

I do agree with that statement wholeheartedly. (And I've never been a big fan of the U.N.) The Iraqis do not see us as legitimate and we don't have enough troops there to restore security. We are going to have to share some of the power. Or we will fail miserably.

Well facefirst I'm... (sqinting and bracing for a punch in the face) Canadian.

I am not a big UN fan either, but the blue-helmets are needed as well as the expertise and resources of the world community.

Everyone should get in there and lend a hand.

Originally posted by misscleo
Well facefirst I'm... (sqinting and bracing for a punch in the face) Canadian.

No problem here. I am American, but I used to live in Toronto and work all over Canada.

I rather like the Canadian people as a whole

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by ShirtNinja]

In honestly, I think that's the only way it could possibly work out well in the end. That's why this pig-headed bunch needs to be kicked out of the White House. They are unbending to the point of idiocy.

You're more than welcome here, misscleo! Canada's cool wit me.

Quote:
What is wrong with getting the world community involved?
We need them in there. Our forces are stretched quite thin.
____________

I don't remember ever saying there was anything wrong with that. I do remember pointing out why France, Germany, and Russia did not support us.

Remember, countries do not have ideals. Countries have interests, and will react accordingly.

__

As far as why France, Germany and Russia didn't join us in the invasion... while Jsobecky may be right on the sweetheart deals, ya have to consider one very important aspect - that our president completely failed to acknowledge - the sheer amount of public opposition to the idea of invading Iraq. It was unprecedented since the Vietnam era. In every country on Earth. I don't know how much opposition there was to it in Russia (I will never trust Russia's government), but in Germany and France the opposition was MASSIVE. Look back to Germany's election prior to the invasion - an anti- war candidate was swept into office for standing up and saying NO to Bush and Bliar.

The governments of Germany and France behaved as true democracies - by listening to their people - who demanded they NOT be involved. One of the biggest problems I have with the Bush admiistration is that they do not give a ratz azz about what the American people think - spitting into the very eye of Democracy. They are nothing but hypocrits.

They deserve to be thrown out on their azz!

I think Im gonna vote Kerry. Painful as it is.

We have little choice, well, we do, but most Americans wont choose third parties.

I have been debating whether i should vote my usual third party/Libertarian vote, but I dunno. Bush is simply too dangerous to keep in office. kerry is an unknown. At least, if kerry gets in office, as a liberal, people will automatically distrust him, and maybe start the same right wing type militia resistance that flourished under the tyrannical Clinton regime.

Maybe voting someone as extreme as kerry might shake some # up.

At this point what choice do we have? A vote for Nader or whoever is a vote for Bush. I don't care what anyone sez on that count. To not vote (as I've contemplated) is going to help Bush. DAMN IT ALL!!!!!

I may well vote for Kerry for the simple fact that he IS a war hero, unlike SHRUB the AWOList. And for that reason alone.

You're right Skadi, Kerry is an unknown. But Bush is a KNOWN menace to the world! He CANNOT be reSelected!

I saw Kerry on FTN, and I found him to be reasonable, articulate and he made a lot more sense that GWB.

Yes we need to get the world community involved. And no, not just Germany and France, but the mid-East nations that will have to live with a stable Iraq for a neighbor.

Frankly were in a no win situation there. They will turn over power, leave and a year later it will be Saigon in �74 all over again. Only it will be the radical militants taking over. I doubt that Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia will be to comfortable with that.

One thing to consider. If you vote for Kerry, you won�t have to deal with Cheaney, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft running this country any more.

The other thing is, no matter who is elected he will have to do one of the hardest things for any sitting president to do, raise taxes.

This war is bankrupting the country.