The Conspiracy Against Belief

America was found on the principle of freedom of religion, or IAW personal beliefs. Our First Amendment Rights allow us to follow our conscience and choose for ourselves what we believe the truth is…

NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO TELL YOU WHAT TO BELIEVE.

Especially when it goes against your conscience, BUT we have schools that are teaching religious beliefs in the name of “science” and “political correctness.”

I know that many will argue that evolution is not a religion. Go ahead and read this link from an atheist who makes a good point, but not good enough.

If Atheism it were not a religion, why then is there so much hostility and animosity from the atheists when it comes to religion or Creationism? The two are constantly at war. Every forum I have ever been on PROVES this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Atheists despise Believers because they both have opposing beliefs concerning the origin of life. ((Perhaps some Believers despise atheist, too. I don’t know. They shouldn’t. They should respect atheist’s right to believe whatever they want.))

Fact is, an ideology or philosophy that proposes a belief concerning the origin of life qualifies as a religion because all religions have teachings on origins. In fact, it is usually one of the foundational teachings of most faiths. Oh, I know, atheist don’t pray or worship, neither do those who practice the religion of vampirism.

Well, an atheist doesn’t believe in God, so that supposedly disqualifies it as a religion.

They have a belief about God, period. Any belief system that has an opinion, philosophy, or belief concerning God, a god, no gods, or God qualifies as a religious opinion or belief. A religion.

“Oh no it isn’t, it is science! Why don’t you evolve? The earth isn’t flat, so get up to speed.”

This is what makes atheism even worse than any other religion, because they go around teaching that their belief system is a proven fact. By the way, I can’t even begin to relate to peoples of the past that believed the earth was flat. I can tell you one thing though; we aren’t much smarter now than we were then, just a little bit more arrogant. We think we got it ALL figured out just because we can visually penetrate the depths of space… but we’re clueless. And guess what? I was taught evloutuion and all our GRAND wisdom of the stars in school as well...

Then there is political correctness, or more specifically, tolerance toward homosexuality. Governments want pre-school curriculum to teach that homosexuality is normal. That it should be an acceptable behavior.

Why in the world is this even a concern for schools? I wasn’t even taught anything about sexuality until 5th grade, and it had nothing to do with preference or orientation.

If they want to teach anything, it should be respect. Respect the differences, but don’t push them. Otherwise, we have the exact same thing we had before the American Revolution, where the king supported a specific belief system.

It’s called tyranny.

Tyranny should not be tolerated, but it is. My question is why? Why do we tolerate tyranny? Oh, I know, many of us have had the wool pulled over our eyes, but that excuse can only last for so long.

It is time for us to grow a back bone.

It is time for separation.

In closing, I quote Thomas Paine who addressed my plea better than I.

"O ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose, not only the tyranny, but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is overrun with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the globe. Asia, and Africa, have long expelled her--Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind."

"Why do we tolerate tyranny?"

It's all we know, therefore, we have found a "comfort zone" with it. Freedom is not only something which requires more responsibility from the individual (than tyranny), it is a voyage into the unknown. Most people tend to remain safe in tyrannical system than take a risk at freedom, which would bring on a host of unfamiliar challenges and uncertainty.

Pretty much the same reason why many people have a fear of death - it's basically a fear of diving into the unknown.

I totally agree with you. I believe in God and I don’t despise atheist. Everyone has the right to chose what they believe in. The whole business of despise of atheist come from the church. Centuries ago, the Church committed mass murder through crusades of people who were non believers or had different belief from the church and the tradition continues with the difference that now they can’t run crusades.

There is indeed a conspiracy against belief but not against atheist. The church for long has tried to silence other alternative theory for the existence God. The fact that there have been many versions of the bible shows that they want to shape belief.

Hilarious that the OP would choose to quote Thomas Paine, who wrote a scathing diatribe against Christianity in his paper "The Age of Reason". Paine was a Deist, and as far as I can tell, Atheists and Deists (despite Deism being an extremely loose form of Theism) get along just fine.

Perhaps this is because Deists actually tend to use their intellect and reason, and understand that science is a study of the natural world. It has nothing to say on gods, magic, or the metaphysical. Beliefs have no place in science, but science does not preclude the existence of beliefs.

For example, here's two videos - one from an Atheist and the other from a Deist. The Atheist (King Heathen) proposes to bring the different traditionally non-theistic realms of philosophy together under a single banner, Anti-Theism. John, the deist, responds favorably, though with the caveat that the banner be called "FreeThinkers", quipping that "Deism is just like Atheism... except for that little part about believing in god".





If you stroll through some of John's videos, you'll notice he's a strong critic of organized religion, especially Christianity and Islam.

So I think it would be... unwise... to use Deist or well known Deists to make a point about the "Tyranny present against belief".

We think we got it ALL figured out just because we can visually penetrate the depths of space… but we’re clueless.

Funny, I never really hear this sentiment coming from actual scientists. Only from people who wish to admonish scientists for what they have discovered.

Then there is political correctness, or more specifically, tolerance toward homosexuality. Governments want pre-school curriculum to teach that homosexuality is normal. That it should be an acceptable behavior.

It is normal behavior. It's been documented as normal behavior for millenia across multiple cultures (especially among warriors such as the Spartans and Samurai), and has been observed in other species outside of humanity.

Why in the world is this even a concern for schools?

When I was in school, we were taught about other cultures and how to value them. We had Spanish week, African week, German week, Japaneese week. We didn't have Russian week, but this was still in the waning years of the Cold War. Why did any of this matter? Why should schools teach children tolerance and understanding of other cultures? Isn't that just a PC belief system? Why didn't we hear from KKK or Neo-Nazi representatives in our school following African or Middle-Eastern/Israel week? That would provide a more balanced viewpoint wouldn't it?

Why is the belief that peace and understanding are more desirable than bigotry and violence taught in school?

If they want to teach anything, it should be respect.

Who are you to push your belief that we should teach our children respect in public schools?

It is time for us to grow a back bone.

I would also suggest growing something atop that spinal column.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by Lasheic]

reply to post by Lasheic


First OP- Very nicely written, I can tell thatcame from the heart and that it was for the closed minded folks.

This is what makes atheism even worse than any other religion, because they go around teaching that their belief system is a proven fact.

They teach there religion at our expense, turning souls away from the truth and bringing them to the dark place. Nothing is worse than a person who has no belief, but the belief that nothing exists. Can they prove it? No. Do they have good evidence on the contrary? No. But can I prove there is a God? No. But either you believe your an accident and came from a rock, or you believe that you have purpose and came from God. What makes more sense? Remember Life gives Life.

Very well said OP, now to the Reply to Lasheic:

Funny, I never really hear this sentiment coming from actual scientists. Only from people who wish to admonish scientists for what they have discovered

Funny, Richard Dawkins, Lewontin, and many others actually stated that.

It is normal behavior. It's been documented as normal behavior for millenia across multiple cultures (especially among warriors such as the Spartans and Samurai), and has been observed in other species outside of humanity.

So because it has been documented as normal behavior its ok? Vlad the Impaler documented his impalig of his enemies and actually enjoyed it, so that is ok too? There is a reason for a man to have his tool and the woman to have hers, its not Adam and Steve, its Adam and Eve. The reason why they had incourse with men, back in the days of Sparta and ALexander the great was because men were viewed as more perfect than woman. Even the animal kingdom, follows this rule- Male and Female.

When I was in school, we were taught about other cultures and how to value them. We had Spanish week, African week, German week, Japaneese week. We didn't have Russian week, but this was still in the waning years of the Cold War. Why did any of this matter? Why should schools teach children tolerance and understanding of other cultures? Isn't that just a PC belief system? Why didn't we hear from KKK or Neo-Nazi representatives in our school following African or Middle-Eastern/Israel week? That would provide a more balanced viewpoint wouldn't it?

Well KKK and Neo Nazism is taught nearly everyday in schools and its easy to find out what it is. What do the KKK, Black Panthers and Neo Nazi's preach, that there race is more advanced and that there race is superior, that should be all you need to figure out what is taught.

Who are you to push your belief that we should teach our children respect in public schools?

Its common sense, look at the world, maybe if some kids were taught respect they would stay out of gangs and stop beating there wives and what not. Respect was taught in schools back in the day and the crime rate was so much lower than today. But I guess teaching kids that they are animals is what is in today.

I would also suggest growing something atop that spinal column.

Why that comment was unnecessary and a blantant attack. At least he has repect in the way he talks and his view, obviously you do not, perhaps reading your statement again?

Originally posted by apaulo
If Atheism it were not a religion, why then is there so much hostility and animosity from the atheists when it comes to religion or Creationism? The two are constantly at war. Every forum I have ever been on PROVES this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Atheists despise Believers because they both have opposing beliefs concerning the origin of life.

I'm not an atheist so I've no axe to grind with this. However, I think there's some seriously faulty logic here. I think atheists can appear as fervent as religious zealots and many of them appear to be eager to have their message heard in a way that can appear evangelical. Yet to suggest - as you are doing in the part I've emboldened - that atheism must be a religion itself because of the animosity it displays towards religion and (Christian) creationism is quite a bizarre statement to make.

((Perhaps some Believers despise atheist, too. I don’t know. They shouldn’t. They should respect atheist’s right to believe whatever they want.))

Think of the paradigm sets used by believers to describe non-believers and how non-believers will eventually end-up. At worse, an atheist can think of a non-believer as an idiot or delusional. Whereas generally religious belief (I'm thinking the Abrahamic religions here) holds the non-believer in a far, far more negative light - damnation to hell, sinning, 'evil' and so on.

Assuming, and this may be a huge assumption, that you embrace the concept of separation of church and state...

And you feel that Atheism is a "religion"...

What exactly would you propose we teach in schools??

That is to say, if i understand you correctly, that you are considering evolution to be tied to the "religious beliefs" of an atheist.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by lellomackin]

Originally posted by TheMythLives
They teach there religion at our expense,

No, they teach science in science class and religion in religion class.

turning souls away from the truth and bringing them to the dark place. Nothing is worse than a person who has no belief, but the belief that nothing exists.

What truth is that? Which mythology should we be teaching as truth? Judaism? Christianity? Islam? Hinduism? Satanism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Scientology? Mormonism? Rastafarianism? Humanism? Sikhism? Bahai? Jainism? Zoroastrianism? Shinto? Taoism? Paganism? Wicca? Shamanism? Animism?

Can they prove it? No.

Can you prove what you believe? Nope.

Do they have good evidence on the contrary? No. But can I prove there is a God? No. But either you believe your an accident and came from a rock, or you believe that you have purpose and came from God. What makes more sense? Remember Life gives Life.

I believe there is a purpose to life, doesn't mean there is a magical man in the sky.

There is a reason for a man to have his tool and the woman to have hers, its not Adam and Steve, its Adam and Eve... Even the animal kingdom, follows this rule- Male and Female.

Wrong. Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom.








[edit on 3/4/2009 by pstiffy]

This is what makes atheism even worse than any other religion, because they go around teaching that their belief system is a proven fact

They do?


Evolution IS a fact, a perponderence of the evidence supports this - we can argue all day about it, but you won't change my mind or the minds of the a vast majority of the scientific world. I also believe that germs cause colds, does that make it a religion?

You postulate that schools are teaching about religion by teaching science and tolerance, I really don't get your argument there as it all seems to hinge on your confabulated definiation of religion.

I support the facts. The fact is that evidence supports evolution. The fact is people with alternatvive sexuality exist in this world. The fact is our children will be woefully unprepared for the real world if they are taught that the Earth is 6000 years old and that homosexuality is a defect to be reviled.

to the OP science is a religion whether you admit it or not. Faith is what determines a religion. Even Atheists have faith in something. They have faith in science. They believe what the man with the white coat says to be fact whether they know it is or not.

Facts can be fudged, manipulated for the desired outcome. The fact that science is always changing shows that science is fallible. Ideas are plucked from the air and put together with the belief that this is going to happen. The only difference between Atheists and Christians is what they put their faith in.

reply to post by Lasheic

Hilarious that the OP would choose to quote Thomas Paine, who wrote a scathing diatribe against Christianity in his paper "The Age of Reason".

Who would you have preferred that I quote? (( I would quote you too if you spoke the truth. )) Honestly, I really don’t care who says it, as long as it is the truth…

Here are some more good quotes from Thomas Paine… hope it gives you a good laugh.

Every religion is good that teaches man to be good; and I know of none that instructs him to be bad.
-Thomas Paine

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
-Thomas Paine

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself.
-Thomas Paine

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
-Thomas Paine

Who are you to push your belief that we should teach our children respect in public schools?

They do teach it, but apparently you never learned it…

I would also suggest growing something atop that spinal column.

Now, you talk about a good laugh… that was funny!

reply to post by Merriman Weir

… I think there's some seriously faulty logic here… to suggest …that atheism must be a religion itself because of the animosity it displays towards religion and (Christian) creationism is quite a bizarre statement to make.

I don’t see anything wrong with the logic… perhaps it’s just my inadequacy to communicate it. Let me try again.

Take for example a surgeon. Surgeons can’t fix a problem unless they make a diagnosis first, but if a couple of doctors are arguing about the way to fix it, since they both think they’re right, they both must be surgeons. They both have knowledge or expertise concerning the solution. You wouldn’t find a chef, or fireman arguing with the surgeons. These guys have special training and education.

The reason you find atheists and theists (I never limited that statement to ONLY Christianity) arguing origins is because they’re talking about something they both have in common… a belief concerning origins, and they both have conflicting “solutions.”

Originally posted by lellomackin


What exactly would you propose we teach in schools??

Theories or ideas that conflict with personal beliefs should be elective classes ONLY.

Originally posted by pstiffy
Which mythology should we be teaching as truth?

Certainly not evolution.

Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom.

I don’t take my cues from animals… I follow my conscience. Some animals kill and eat their babies and do other horrible acts that I’d never consider as normal behavior…

Originally posted by Merigold

Evolution IS a fact...

Death is a fact.

Evolution is not.

Originally posted by Ant4AU
Even Atheists have faith in something. They have faith in science.

Exactly.







[edit on 4-3-2009 by apaulo]

Originally posted by apaulo
Certainly not evolution.

So we should ignore the only one that has any short of actual factual evidence backing it up and just teach mythology as fact? I'm definitely glad you're not in a position to make this decision for my, or any other kids, as we would be taking a GIANT step back as a culture.

Some animals kill and eat their babies and do other horrible acts that I’d never consider as normal behavior…

So do humans.

Originally posted by pstiffy

So we should ignore the only one that has any short (( I agree… “short” is the right word.)) of actual factual evidence backing it up and just teach mythology as fact?

They’re already teaching mythology as fact, and that is the problem. As I addressed in my last response,

“Theories or ideas that conflict with personal beliefs should be elective classes ONLY.”

Some animals kill and eat their babies and do other horrible acts that I’d never consider as normal behavior…

So do humans.

I’m not the one who justified homosexuality by saying that animals do it…

BTW, we humans have done some pretty nasty things, but I have as yet to hear about them eating their young…

… but the purpose of the OP was to shine the spot light on the conspiracy here.

I’m not trying to tell people what to believe.

I’M SAYING that ((THAT)) IS THE PROBLEM;

TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO BELIEVE.

If the government were forcing religion on you, then you would agree, right? Thing is, people don’t mind the government forcing the masses to believe something as long as they believe it, too. This is hypocracy.

Originally posted by apaulo

I’m not the one who justified homosexuality by saying that animals do it…

I didn't justify anything. The poster I was responding to stated that the animal kingdom follow the whole "god created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" nonsense, and stated that the animal kingdom followed the same "rule" which is blatantly false, as homosexuality is found throughout the kingdom..how you got justification from that is beyond me.

BTW, we humans have done some pretty nasty things, but I have as yet to hear about them eating their young…

It has happened, unfortunately. Here are one example. I am sure there are many more.

… but the purpose of the OP was to shine the spot light on the conspiracy here.

What conspiracy? That school teach evolution? It is almost universally accepted by the scientific community, and much of the world for that matter, as fact, so it is taught in schools. If there was any actual proof to creationism, maybe they would start teaching it in schools.

I’M SAYING that ((THAT)) IS THE PROBLEM;

TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO BELIEVE.

Nobody is telling anybody to believe anything. It is taught because it is the closest to the truth, based on the evidence we currently have. You can choose whether or not you want to believe it, just like people can choose to believe a specific religion if they so choose.

Reply to pstiffy

I hope you don’t mind me getting off topic by not answering your replies, but I would rather address something else...

For starters I have a very good friend who is an atheist, but I have never had any problems hanging out with him. He respects my beliefs and I respect his. There is never any debates or arguments, and never any form of hostility, yet I encounter animosity from atheists all the time on forums. Some of the particular statements you have made prove you are pretty angry. Are you just a bitter person that is never happy or able to make friends of theists, or do you just despise theists? And why do you care anyway?

I could care less what you believe.

So you believe in divine accidents, I believe in a divine creation. so what. Can we still be friends or at least respectful?



[edit on 4-3-2009 by apaulo]

Originally posted by apaulo


....This is what makes atheism even worse than any other religion, because they go around teaching that their belief system is a proven fact. .....

Apaulo, I have found this to be true as well, certainly here on ATS....

Not exactly sure why? There is a small percentage that are respectful, seeking and open, but its a small group!

Nice honest OP man!

OT

Our First Amendment Rights allow us to follow our conscience and choose for ourselves what we believe the truth is…

NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO TELL YOU WHAT TO BELIEVE.

If only it was like that. The thing is that religious parents along with their religious institutions brainwash/mindrape their kids into religions with scare tactics and from there on there's very little room left for those kids to truly choose what to believe in. It's horrible abuse!

Now about science and evolution. Evolution as a phenomenon is a fact. The theory of evolution tries to explain the phenomenon. When kids are told how the theory works there's no room for mythologies. However after the teacher concludes "Well that's how our studies and experiments show it to be" they can (as far I care) then continue "However there are people out there who believe that it doesn't go like that at all but instead it's this beard guy/spaghetti creature/woman with 9 hands or whatever that did it. They can't prove it, nor does anything point to it, but that's what they believe anyways and it's impossible to disprove their beliefs".

[edit on 5-3-2009 by iWork4NWO]

reply to post by OldThinker


Thanks for posting... glad to know that you have found that “small group.” I guess I have come across a few as well. They’re not all closed minded.

reply to post by iWork4NWO

Evolution as a phenomenon is a fact.

As I said before, DEATH is a FACT.
Evolution is not.

Something else I don’t mind repeating is...

...that you cannot tell me that THIS was ALL an accident.
It would be easier for me to believe that Leonardo da Vinci bumped his easel and palette, knocking them over and spilling his paint across a canvas that just happened to create the Mona Lisa.
Come on. I don’t care how many millions of years a blank canvas lays around, it will never produce the Mona Lisa.

Oh, woops, I just spilled my coffee. Hmmm, would you look at that… it looks like the mess has some sort of order to it?

Wow, it actually looks like letters.

Let’s see here, what does it say?

“Your father was a monkey.”

Evolution as a phenomenon is a fact.

As I said before, DEATH is a FACT.
Evolution is not.

You deny the existence of the phenomenon that we call evolution? Is this a hoax? Another source

[edit on 5-3-2009 by iWork4NWO]

Lenski and his colleagues are now working to identify just what that earlier change was, and how it made the Cit+ mutation possible more than 10,000 generations later.

This is an example of a mutation. I don’t see something appearing out of nothing here. Sorry, I don’t agree that this is proof of anything except adaptation and mutation. I’ve had this conversation with a guy at work once. He believes that mutations prove evolution. What??? You stick a cow in a cold weather region and it grows longer hair and this proves evolution? Come on.

Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists, notes Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago. "The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events," he says. "That's just what creationist’s say can't happen."

So creationists were wrong. So what. That’s just a “poke in the eye.” Both sides have been wrong before. When they can observe something appear from nothing that might be a death blow.

Until then, maybe Lenski and is buddies should come and check out my coffee mug. They might get more out of it.