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Originally posted by Aermacchi
Originally posted by Jezus
It is interesting how this debate continues in the political and religious world of rhetoric and semantics...
In the scientific world this debate does not exist.
Evolution VS Creationism
Chemistry VS Alchemy
Physics VS Magic
Zoology VS Pokemon
Observed VS Made up
Really? Thats why Science was found GUILTY by the United States Senate of the very problems is what I call Evolution VS Creationism people like Neil Degrasse Tyson saying he will use his format to Advance his atheism is what I call Evolution VS Creationism
Originally posted by Jezus
What does any of that have to do with the fact that creationism was thought up in a person's mind and evolution is observed in our environment?
Religion is believed.
Science is observed.
Evolution is a word describing a series of events.
Originally posted by Aermacchi
that have NEVER been observed and Never been Proven
and they never will.
Originally posted by Gawdzilla
Choose the way you wish, the verified fossil record, or the Great Sky Fairy.
Your entire post is a propositional fallacy, affirming a disjunction.
You're call, just tell the rest of us what to believe once you've decided
Sir Fred Hoyle a mathematician and astronomer calculated that the probability of one simple enzyme forming by chance is 10 to the power of 20 (one with twenty zeros behind it), to 1. Hence for one cell to form, about 2000 enzymes are needed, which makes the probability of the first self replicating cell forming by random movement of atoms as 10 to the power of 40000 to 1. One bitter critic of Hoyle begrudgingly says that that this figure is 'probably not overly exaggerated'.
It has been said that this is as likely as a cyclone going through a junkyard and producing a fully functional jumbo jet.
People do say that if you allow enough time, anything can happen. However, at best we have about 4.6 billion years to work with. If Sir Fred Hoyle's calculated probability was for a cell to form in say the next second then the probability of a cell forming in 4.6 billion years is still about 10 to the power of 39982 to 1. If it was for a microsecond, the probability would be 10 to the power of 39976 to 1. If it was for a picosecond, the probability would be 10 to the power of 39970 to 1.
There are approximately 10 to the power of 80 atoms in this universe.
Originally posted by Jezus
Originally posted by Aermacchi
that have NEVER been observed and Never been Proven
and they never will.
I appreciate the honesty...
No matter how much observable evidence piles up, you will NEVER believe evolution.
This is exactly why it is pointless to debate with someone who doesn't respect science.
Your beliefs are static from an ancient novel, while science EVOLVES and is perfected.
We can only show you all the evidence, you have to open your mind.
Originally posted by andre18
Ok Aermacchi, I went to page 66 and went to the website of some of the articles you posted. This is my take on the sites -
Okay, the first site starts off badly. We did not descend from "apes", but from a common primate. Self-consciousness is not relegated solely to humanity. Other primates and possibly other animals are able to distinguish their personal reflections from images of other animals - which is thought to indicate self-awareness, "that image I see in front of me is a self-image of me". So, in the first paragraph, it has things wrong.
By the 4th paragraph we see the tired argument of how some fossils have been miscategorized or even proven to be hoaxes. The problem with that crappy argument is that it ignores how we know them to be mis-categorized or hoaxes. We know because the scientific method appears to work!
It also looks at only a handful of mistakes, ignoring the vastly higher number of fossils that science does agree on. Didn't the fact that they had to pull out a hoax case of almost a 100 years ago strike you as strange? If evolution was as false as they claim, wouldn't there be a ton more recent cases?!?
Also, if evolution was wrong, then genetics wouldn't work as a method to cross check dates. It should show evolution to be faulty. It doesn't. It actually supports evolutionary science.
The site then goes off criticizing scientists for being wrong in the past or having outlandish theories. So what? Science is a process. Parts of it are most assuredly wrong... which is why scientists continually test results and experiments. If something turns out to be wrong, scientists strive to take what we've learned and incorporate it into a new theory. If a scientific finding goes against an established theory, does it mean the theory is wrong? Maybe. We need to find out why the new finding goes against the theory.
If evolution were false, then wouldn't we share little genetic similarity with things like chimps and neanderthals? Shouldn't nearly identical genomes be meaningless? Instead, they themselves support the idea that nearly identical genomes means that two separate species resemble one another.
At least they pointed out the genetic similarity between us and chimps.
the DNA still supports evolutionary theory and discredits young earth bible creation
it implies that god is directly involved in DNA on a constant basis. We can test and theorize how this works... effectively finding out/proving things about god.
If god is perfect, then what happens if DNA screws up? It implies that god is imperfect.
To be honest, I'm not going to look at the other sites unless you really, really, really think there is something to one of them. So far, they look to be just ignorant attempts at spin
Originally posted by Gawdzilla
Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Do you use electricity? Do you personally know Thomas Alva Edison? Do you ever fly? Do you personally know the Wright Brothers? I'm thinking "No" and "No" to both. (If your really are old enough to have known all three personally, my apologies and a major jaw-drop moment ensues.)
What you just said was "If I don't want to believe it, I won't." Try rejecting the theories of aerodynamics in flight sometime.
Actually, I was speaking of the types of "scientists", that I work with everyday; which I would suppose, you, not me, maybe working actively in the field of aviation, maybe its an interest of yours; you have probably messed up a few paper planes
Did you personally know Edison? I think not. Did you perchance rub shoulders with the Wright brothers? I think not!
You see, rather than waffle on by compulsion, I choose to think about what I write.
Please read the comment again before crying wolf.
I was speaking about academics that I work with personally!!!
Originally posted by Gawdzilla
It's odd that you can live in home with air conditioning (Thermodynamics), lighted by electricity (Electromagnetics), and use a computer to post that you don't believe in the scientific method.
(My apologies if you live in a cave and used psychic powers to post to this computer forum.)
So the scientists involved are all liars? And they don't follow scientific protocols? So the peer-review system for papers is a lie as well? Really?
What do scientific studies OF scientific studies tell us about the reliability of peer review?
This excellent scientific study is very interesting to read:
Some highlights include:
"There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false."
"Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true. Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias."
In a similar vein here is an interesting quote I extracted from a poster on statistics website focusing on global warming issues:
"People outside science have a hopelessly exaggerated idea of the quality of peer review. I am a regular reviewer for physics journals, and I probably spend about three or four hours reviewing a typical manuscript. I check that it is comprehensible, that the authors haven't made any really glaring errors, and that they give enough references to place the work in its proper context. If I have time, and the paper is very close to my own field, I check a couple of calculations. If the manuscript is for a really top journal I spend a little longer; if it's from a group I know and trust I'm not so careful. And that's it. Comparing my reviews with other reviews of the same manuscripts I get the impression that I am at the careful end of reviewing in my field.
I used to reckon as a handy rule of thumb that 10% of published papers in my field were fraudulent, 30% were erroneous, 30% were technically correct but completely irrelevant, and the remaining 30% were worth bothering with."
February 11, 2009, 2:49 pm
Why Does Peer Review Suppress New Ideas Today?
Philip Anderson, a winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics opines that "in the early part of
the postwar [post-WWII] period [a scientist's] career was science-driven, motivated mostly by
absorption with the great enterprise of discovery, and by genuine curiosity as to how nature
operates. By the last decade of the century far too many, especially of the young people, were
seeing science as a competitive interpersonal game, in which the winner was not the one who
was objectively right as [to] the nature of scientific reality, but the one who was successful at
getting grants, publishing in Physical Review Letters, and being noticed in the news pages of
Nature, Science, or Physics Today.... [A] general deterioration in quality, which came primarily
from excessive specialization and careerist sociology, meant quite literally that more was
worse." (20th Century Physics, pp. 2029).
But the interesting question is, what caused the "excessive specialization and careerist
sociology" that is making it very difficult for new ideas to be published in peer review journals?
There are several possibilities. One is a consequence of Anderson's observation that,
paradoxically, more scientists can mean a slower rate of scientific advance.
The number of physicists, for example, has increased by a factor of a thousand since the year 1900, when ten percent of all physicists in the world either won the Nobel Prize or were nominated for it. If you submitted a paper to a refereed journal in 1900, you would have a far greater chance of having a
referee who was a Nobel Prize winner (or at least a nominee) than now. In fact, a simple
calculation shows that one would have to submit three papers on the average to have an even
chance that at least one of your papers would be "peer" reviewed by a Nobel Prize winner.
Today, to have an even chance of having a Nobelist for a referee, you would have to submit
several hundred papers. Thus Albert Einstein had his revolutionary 1905 papers truly peer
reviewed: Max Planck and Wilhelm Wien were both later to win the Nobel Prize in physics.
Today, Einstein's papers would be sent to some total nonentity at Podunk U, who, being
completely incapable of understanding important new ideas, would reject the papers for
publication. "Peer" review is very unlikely to be peer review for the Einsteins of the world. We
have a scientific social system in which intellectual pygmies are standing in judgment of giants.
(See P. Stephan and S. Levin, Striking the Mother Lode in Science, chapter 7 for a detailed
discussion of the Pygmy Effect.)
One could argue that because the number of Nobel Prizes awarded is permanently fixed
at one per year in three scientific disciplines (physics, chemistry, and medicine), the relative
decrease in Nobelists does not mean a similar decrease in the number of giants to pygmies. The
data contradict this proposal.
The most radical ideas are those that are perceived to support religion, specifically
Judaism and Christianity. When I was a student at MIT in the late 1960s, I audited a course in
cosmology from the physics Nobelist Steven Weinberg. He told his class that of the theories of
cosmology, he preferred the Steady State Theory because “it least resembled the account in
Genesis” (my emphasis). In his book The First Three Minutes (chapter 6), Weinberg explains his
earlier rejection of the Big Bang Theory: “[O]ur mistake is not that we take our theories too
seriously, but that we do not take them seriously enough. It is always hard to realize that these
numbers and equations we play with at our desks have something to do with the real world. Even
worse, there often seems to be a general agreement that certain phenomena are just not fit
subjects for respectable theoretical and experimental effort.” I have now known Weinberg for over thirty years, and I know that he has always taken the equations of physics very seriously indeed. He and I are both convinced that the equations of
physics are the best guide to reality, especially when the predictions of these equations are
contrary to common sense. But as he himself points out in his book, the Big Bang Theory was an
automatic consequence of standard thermodynamics, standard gravity theory, and standard
nuclear physics. All of the basic physics one needs for the Big Bang Theory was well established
in the 1930s, some two decades before the theory was worked out. Weinberg rejected this
standard physics not because he didn’t take the equations of physics seriously, but because he
did not like the religious implications of the laws of physics. A recent poll of the members of the
National Academy of Sciences, published in Scientific American, indicated that more than ninety
percent are atheists. These men and women have built their entire worldview on atheism. They
would be exceedingly reluctant to admit that any result of science could be valid if it even
suggested that God could exist.
It's odd that you can live in home with air conditioning (Thermodynamics), lighted by electricity (Electromagnetics), and use a computer to post that you don't believe in the scientific method
Refereed Journals: Do They Insure Quality
or Enforce Orthodoxy?
Frank J. Tipler
Professor of Mathematical Physics
Tulane University
New Orleans, LA 70118 USA
[email protected]
Introduction
I first became aware of the importance that many non-elite scientists place on "peerreviewed"
or "refereed" journals when Howard Van Till, a theistic evolutionist, said my book
The Physics of Immortality was not worth taking seriously because the ideas it presented had
never appeared in refereed journals. Actually, the ideas in that book had already appeared in
refereed journals. The papers and the refereed journals wherein they appeared were listed at the
beginning of my book. My key predictions of the top quark mass (confirmed) and the Higgs
boson mass (still unknown) even appeared in the pages of Nature, the most prestigious refereed
science journal in the world. But suppose Van Till had been correct and that my ideas had never
been published in referred journals. Would he have been correct in saying that, in this case, the
ideas need not be taken seriously?
To answer this question, we first need to understand what the "peer review" process is.
That is, we need to understand how the process operates in theory, how it operates in practice,
what it is intended to accomplish, and what it actually does accomplish in practice. Also of
importance is its history. The notion that a scientific idea cannot be considered intellectually
respectable until it has first appeared in a "peer" reviewed journal did not become widespread
until after World War II. Copernicus's heliocentric system, Galileo's mechanics, Newton's grand
synthesis-these ideas never appeared first in journal articles. They appeared first in books,
reviewed prior to publication only by the authors or by the authors' friends. Even Darwin never
submitted his idea of evolution driven by natural selection to a journal to be judged by
"impartial" referees. Darwinism indeed first appeared in a journal, but one under the control of
Darwin's friends. And Darwin's article was completely ignored. Instead, Darwin made his ideas
known to his peers and to the world at large through a popular book: On the Origin of Species.
I shall argue that prior to the Second World War the refereeing process, even where it
existed, had www.iscid.org...